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Old 02-23-2007, 11:53 AM
  #211
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Quote:
And throughout that whole ep even when he was leaving I felt Rory really liked having Chris there. I saw no resentment from her whatsoever ...
And you won't probably ever see any resentment from Rory about her dad - because Rory has a more realistic set of expectations for Chris than we have on her behalf. In my opinion, Rory has always pretty much had Chris' number. It doesn't stop her from loving her father and it never will. But Rory's love and understanding does not lessen Chris' parental neglect of his daughter. Frankly, I've had a more difficult time rationalizing Lorelai's romantic illusions about Chris after watching him let Rory down time and time again for 20+ years, but that's just me.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:58 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by caf123 (View Post)
It has nothing, or very little, to do with getting together with Luke.

Her character and her core - what I called her soul - were ruined when she shrugged off Christopher as merely "not right", but still deserving of a "marvelous possibility" that randomly didn't work out.

He's still selfish and unreliable and he cares more about himself than his kids. He risked Gigi to a "second-best" marriage, he couldn't be bothered to phone Rory before her own parents' wed - we've been over and over all that.

For Lorelai to turn to him in the first place was reprehensible. That she slept with him a few hours after breaking up with Luke merely adds a layer but it would be just as wrong to marry Christopher if she'd never met Luke.

And to reduce Christopher's neglect and repeated betrayals to a mere romantic choice makes me not especially care who she ends up with. I care because Luke deserves to get the woman he still loves, but watching the last two weeks, I found myself indifferent to disgusted by Lorelai. Even when Emily was so cold in that last scene - I felt the merest twinge of pity, no more than I'd feel for any character on a show I'd just tuned into and didn't especially know or care about.

For me she's lost her moral core and her soul. And it has nothing really to do with Luke. I don't care all that much if they're reunited in the end. If I had any speculative dreams about after the show ends, I might imagine that years later, after watching the sacrifices and effort Luke makes to be a father to April, that Lorelai might someday bother to remember how negligent Rory's father was and what that says about him. And that she might care what type of man he is, and that character might actually matter to her.

eta: Or what little_earthquake said.

eta2: funnyfriend, I'm saying it's ironic that this happened after Rory was all grown up - or on the brink. I'm not blaming Rory, kids don't ask to be born, and it's not even about that. It's not about deserving, it's simply about who Lorelai turned into now.
Christopher did not make Lorelai lose her soul. She has never and will never see Chris as you do. Jason, I disagree that Chris didn't neglect Rory, he did. However, Lorelai simply never thought Rory needed Chris, because she thought she was all Rory ever needed.

But, Lorelai "lost her soul" at the exact same time she lost her sense of self, and became unmoored, which you have seemed to think was dandy & fine all along. WHEN SHE TURNED HER BACK ON RORY!

Rory was her reason for being. Her motivation. The love of her life and center of her being. And in Rory's crisis, instead of guiding her through it, she cut her loose. Of course she lost her way. She lost the thing that had driven her entire adult life.

You seem to want to blame Chris and her decision to be with him, when that was just the end of a long winding road. Her big mistake was turning her back on the best thing that will ever happen to her, her kid, and trying to live her life as if it didn't matter that Rory needed her then more than ever and she abandoned her! It's not surprising that when she didn't have the center of her universe around anymore she began to lose her way, all through S6.

So, yes, Rory's the one that would come out of all of this fine. She had to find out who Rory was, and sink or swim, when Lorelai turned her back on her. She found she had an inner core that is strong, that she can rely on a man she loves, that she doesn't want to be Emily, nor Lorelai, that she's someone entirely unique. Lorelai just kept on making one bad decision after another. Lorelai was always going to have a hard time as Rory grew up and left home, she'd built her ENTIRE WORLD around her. Lorelai just exacerbated it by turning Emily & Richard's betrayal into Rory's, and instead of dealing with empty nest and trying to build a life without Rory for it to revolve around she had to deal with her own guilt over what she did to the best thing that ever happened to her.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:00 PM
  #213
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"No, the ones that have lost their souls are those who are consumed by unending hate."

Amen to that.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:05 PM
  #214
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Leonana, are you almost 40? Do you enjoy wearing stretch pants? Do you enjoy alternative music? Does your hairstyle often change? Do you enjoy eating...alot? Are you best-friends with people that could be seen as certifiable by lesser souls? Do you have problems with your parents? Are you a the sole caregiver of a child? Is she a daughter? Do you enjoy randomally splurging on shopping that you cannot afford? Do you like Jeep Cherokees? Do you know how to operate a computer? Do you know how to quicken? Do you have a ridiculously extravagent cell-phone plan? Do you have a tendency to wear odd dresses? Do you wear heels when heels are not called for? I could go on, but why do you have to relate with Lorelai? Why does it always have to be about you? I ask that honestly. I do relate with Luke and Zach. Yet, I am neither, Luke or Zach. See?
Heh. I have a little in common with Lorelai, I have a daughter, I have dark hair, and I'm 5'9". Actually, I was first hooked on GG because of Lorelai. I started watching from the beginning when it first aired. I was flipping around the stations and happened to find it. I so admired her wit and beauty and her relationship with her daughter.

I guess it is about me, because I'm the one that chooses to watch. If I find nothing in a show that emotionally resonates with me, I don't watch. Anyway, I still enjoy GG, I just don't ship any of the couples. That may change. I am a woman, I change my mind frequently!

I've always enjoyed shows more when I don't ship a couple. I loved Everwood, currently love the Office and Ugly Betty, and I don't ship any couples on those shows.

Quote:
Frankly, I've had a more difficult time rationalizing Lorelai's romantic illusions about Chris after watching him let Rory down time and time again for 20+ years, but that's just me.
That's where I get stuck. I understand that it doesn't make Lorelai a bad person to have faults. This one is just such a headscratcher. Mr. Leonana is a great father, but I can't imagine wanting to marry him if he had neglected our daughter for years. IRL, children ARE hurt by this. On the show, Rory isn't. Still a headscratcher.

ETA: Wonderful post. Lemon. It makes a lot of sense.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:06 PM
  #215
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Thanks for the new thread !

Thanks for the pics !

The Director's Cut is up at the CW website. It's about Lorelai trying to convince Mrs. Kim to come to Lane's baby shower and then Luke and Kirk talking about Luke selling his boat.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:09 PM
  #216
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Damsel said; "Mine is: Rory did just fine even though Chris DID neglect her, because she had Lorelai there to compensate.

Chris neglected Rory, and Lorelai feeling secure in her parenting doesn't change that. Chris has acknowledged it, and both Lorelai and Rory have acknowledged it. Both have chosen to overlook his neglect to a certain degree, but that doesn't erase it. Lorelai's pointed reference in IRBIP showed she's well aware of it, even if she did let him off the hook. That's show canon." It's also show canon what she said in GO BULLDOGS!. You cannot pick and choose from the canon. Again, I am not justifying Chris neglect. I am simply stating that it's not as important as folks such as yourself make it out to be. I also would want to know what Chris not being around kept from his daughter. Again, Rory is better off for having Lorelai around...than not...I think It's a horse of a different colour. Also, while we are here, let me state that I do not feel the CHRIS HATE is only attached to JJs or LLs. I feel it's just a personal thing. Which causes all the problems that we have in this thread. Some of us do not make it or take it personally. While some of us do.

That aside, currienc, love makes people crazy. It also makes them leap, jump, dive, and do all other feats of daring. It's love. Lorelai LOVES CHRIS. Yes...blah blah not blah blah Luke. However, she loved him enough, to dive head-first into something. It did not work out. Now she will dust herself off for a few weeks, then she will get back in the game. ETA: Leonana said; "If I find nothing in a show that emotionally resonates with me..." Yeah, the show emotionally resonates with me, but I do not need to see so much of myself in these characters. I guess that I can seperate me from what I expect from the story on this show. If it were my world; Rory and Logan would be married already. There would also have been a time-skip...they rule. Nevertheless, I get what you are stating, and you do have stuff in common with Lorelai...trippy.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:15 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon tart
Lorelai simply never thought Rory needed Chris, because she thought she was all Rory ever needed.
I don't agree with that either. She told Chris in Haunted Leg :

LORELAI: I know she needs her father, I’ve been telling her she needs her father! But she feels like her father bailed on her and she’s mad and hurt, and I can’t change that in three minutes!

I know that was in reference to Chris bailing in ICGS, but I think it also refers to the broader scope. Lorelai knew Rory needed Chris, but she also knew he couldn't be counted on, and she had to compensate for that. Rather than thinking she was all Rory needed, it was more that she was all Rory had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJSW
It's also show canon what she said in GO BULLDOGS!. You cannot pick and choose from the canon. Again, I am not justifying Chris neglect. I am simply stating that it's not as important as folks such as yourself make it out to be.
Well, now you're changing it because your original comment was: "Chris did not neglect Rory because Rory HAD LORELAI". Now you're saying he did neglect her, but it's not as important as we think.

And I'm not picking and choosing from the canon -- Lorelai didn't deny what Chris was saying in GB, she tried to temper it by telling him Rory was always a self-starter, but that he did still have time.

ETA: The DC is up finally - Lorelai and Mrs Kim. And Luke/Kirk.
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Last edited by damselfly : 02-23-2007 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:30 PM
  #218
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AND Luke selling his boat to Kirk for $600
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:32 PM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJSW
You cannot pick and choose from the canon.
So here's my question. And I'm not trying to pick a fight here, so please don't bludgeon me. Who decides what is "the canon" of the show? You say Lorelai loves Chris - that's "the canon". And, God knows, we've heard her say it enough during the last 14 or so episodes, to believe that, at the very least, certainly Lorelai believes it (or wants to believe it). But, back in her taxicab confessions to the pseudo-shrink in Season 6, didn't she also say that Luke was the only man she had ever loved? Specifically mentioning Chris as an exclusion to her statement? So, in the case of such an inconsistency, who decides what is Gilmore Girls "canon" and what is not? Does quantity count more than quality? Or does it, in the end, simply wind up being what we each personally believe? In which case, aren't we picking and choosing?

I think I just gave myself a headache.

Last edited by currienc : 02-23-2007 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:35 PM
  #220
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Why is Luke selling his boat????
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:41 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyJr3000 (View Post)
Why is Luke selling his boat????
He wont in the end.

Maybe Lorelai steps in?

Why can't he sell that cap with the boat?

Okay I'll have the TS up ASAP, just give me a little time it's not even 6am here yet and I have NO caffeine in my system!

ETA - BTW the direct link to the clip is here but you'll need the right player
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:51 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

Rory was her reason for being. Her motivation. The love of her life and center of her being. And in Rory's crisis, instead of guiding her through it, she cut her loose. Of course she lost her way. She lost the thing that had driven her entire adult life.

You seem to want to blame Chris and her decision to be with him, when that was just the end of a long winding road. Her big mistake was turning her back on the best thing that will ever happen to her, her kid, and trying to live her life as if it didn't matter that Rory needed her then more than ever and she abandoned her! It's not surprising that when she didn't have the center of her universe around anymore she began to lose her way, all through S6.

So, yes, Rory's the one that would come out of all of this fine. She had to find out who Rory was, and sink or swim, when Lorelai turned her back on her. She found she had an inner core that is strong, that she can rely on a man she loves, that she doesn't want to be Emily, nor Lorelai, that she's someone entirely unique. Lorelai just kept on making one bad decision after another. Lorelai was always going to have a hard time as Rory grew up and left home, she'd built her ENTIRE WORLD around her. Lorelai just exacerbated it by turning Emily & Richard's betrayal into Rory's, and instead of dealing with empty nest and trying to build a life without Rory for it to revolve around she had to deal with her own guilt over what she did to the best thing that ever happened to her.
In the earlier seasons, I would say that Rory did drive much of Lorelai's life...in season 5 and 6? I don't agree. I think there are times when she needed Rory more than Rory needed her, but Lorelai has shown on many occassions that she is capable of believing in herself and being an independent woman, sans Rory.

And I do not see season 6 as Lorelai's downward spiral. I don't see the mistake after mistake -- only two major ones.

ETA: Barack Obama is at my school today
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:23 PM
  #223
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7.16 - Will You Be My Lorelai Gilmore? - Directors Cut Clip Transcript

edited - with help from buttuglycow

Quote:
MRS KIM ANTIQUES

MRS KIM: So what’s it going to be, yes or no?

CUSTOMER: Well I really like them. I’m just not sure how they’re gonna work in the room.

MRS KIM: They will work they are teak. Teak is a hard working wood.

CUSTOMER: How about I take them out on memo?

MRS KIM: Memo?

CUSTOMER: You know. Bring them home, see how they look, if I like them then I buy them.

MRS KIM: No I do not work with memos, I work with money. You buy them then you take them home.

CUSTOMER: What if they don’t fit next to my the bed.

MRS KIM: Then you get a new bed.

LORELAI: Hi Mrs Kim.

MRS KIM: Lorelai.

LORELAI: How’s business?

MRS KIM: People die, go bankrupt, there is always furniture to sell.

LORELAI: Sounds good.

MRS KIM: You come for pictures of Lane?

LORELAI: Yeah.

MRS KIM: Here you are.

LORELAI: Thanks.

MRS KIM: [holding off handing them over] I am giving these to you in pristine condition and I expect that is how they will be returned. Do not cut them up or put glue on the back.

LORELAI: I will do my best. [Mrs Kim pulls them away from Lorelai’s hand again] I will return them in the condition they were received. [She hand them over] See you at the show.

[Lorelai starts to leave]

MRS KIM: Ah, no you won’t.

LORELAI: Why?

MRS KIM: I’m not going.

LORELAI: Not going to you daughters baby shower, why not?

MRS KIM: Lane knows why.

LORELAI: Oh there’s a problem between you two?

MRS KIM: Yes.

LORELAI: Maybe you could put it aside for one day?

MRS KIM: No.

LORELAI: It’s that bigger deal?

MRS KIM: Yes.

LORELAI: Is there anything Lane can say or do that can change your mind?

MRS KIM: Yes.

LORELAI: Does Lane know what it is?

MRS KIM: Yes.

LORELAI: What I have like 14 questions left?

MRS KIM: I have work to do.

LORELAI: Mrs Kim, I know Lane would really like you to be at the shower.

MRS KIM: Well life is full of disappointments. You can show yourself out. [Too the customer] Too late you cannot by those tables any more.

LORELAI: Okay then!

[Lorelai looks at the packet of pictures]


LUKE'S DINER
[Kirk enters]

KIRK: Word on the street is you want to sell your boat.

LUKE: I called you Kirk.

KIRK: Yeah but I was on the street what I got that call and to be honest with you, I was a little surprised to hear about this turn of events.

[They start walking out to the boat.]

LUKE: It’s not a turn of events Kirk. I just want to sell my boat.

KIRK: But you’ve always been really attached to this boat. Hell I thought you’d take it to your grave with you, maybe you’d row yourself across the River Styx.

LUKE: Yeah well turns out I’m not using it, you interested?

KIRK: [Kicking the trailer tires] It does suit me and it would be great for water skiing. Lulu loves water skiing. She also loves carriage rides. You’re not selling a carriage are you?

LUKE: Just the boat Kirk.

KIRK: Hmmm.

LUKE: You interested or not?

KIRK: How much we talking?

LUKE: $600.

KIRK: I was thinking more around three.

LUKE: Price isn’t negotiable.

KIRK: Okay 400.

LUKE: Non negotiable $600 price includes everything Kirk, even the trailer.

KIRK: 590.

LUKE: 600 dollars Kirk.

KIRK: 595 and you throw in a life preserver and a captain’s hat?

LUKE: 600 and you buy your own captain’s hat.

KIRK: But you’ll throw in a life preserver?

LUKE: Deal. Just have it out of here ASAP.

[Luke goes back in the diner]

KIRK: Sucker.
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Last edited by lancer1993 : 02-23-2007 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:39 PM
  #224
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Thanks for the transcription Craig.

Show of hands.....how many of you expect a rip-off of NaCaP and Lorelai buys the boat from Kirk for more than he paid for it and hides it in her garage?
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Old 02-23-2007, 01:46 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)
Thanks for the transcription Craig.

Show of hands.....how many of you expect a rip-off of NaCaP and Lorelai buys the boat from Kirk for more than he paid for it and hides it in her garage?
Naw. But I'd love for his boat to still end up in her garage (hee!). Maybe she can catch word of him selling it, and then actually manage to talk him out of it this time, and then allowing him to store it in her garage again.
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