Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #150 ~ Lovely Weather For A Tray Ride Together - Page 11

El286 · 01-31-2007, 11:33 AM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

Ya know, I think HE thinks he's her 2nd choice, I think to her, he's not. I think for Lorelai she has 2 equally valid choices, and loves them both, each feed a different part of her. But I don't see how you can look at how she reacted to his overreaction, and how she was looking for him the next morning and clearly hoping it would be him on the phone, not Luke, and see it any other way. She loves 2 men. She'll only live her life with one, and will be happy with him. But the reality is she could be happy with either man. There is no 2nd choice, 2nd best, exept in the minds of Chris & Luke. Each have brought that very thing up, both are wrong.

In this episode, particularly in the fight and her morning after reactions, I see Lorelai wanting the marriage to work. I never thought she ruled out having a kid, which was reinforced by what she said to Sookie. I'm not sure I'm seeing her doing the work I've talked about, but I'm not sure there's a chance for that, but I see an attitude that says she wants the marriage to work, which I saw in ILP & SSS as well.

They have to get rid of Chris. I realize things will change with him not showing up in the next episode, but as of right now, Chris is just as valid a choice, in Lorelai's mind & heart, as Luke ever was. Oh, and while Chris is unable to live with the idea that another man can be right for Lorelai, Luke will come to grips with it. Which is why he'll end up with her, and forgive her.

Finally someone says that. That is exactly how I feel. No second choice, no second best, just the person she chose--not that she loves one more than the other, just differently. It is possible to love more than one person in your life, and it is possible to stay with just one.

That being said: In Gilmore-land, Lorelai does not currently love Luke more than she loves Christopher. Hence, in Gilmore-world, Christopher was irrational and he overreacted. But there's higher powers controlling the Gilmore universe that have destined Lorelai and Luke to have a future together. So, in the broader sense of things, Christopher's absolutely right. Luke is a threat to his marriage--sooner or later, his marriage has to end so that Lorelai and Luke can get back together. He might seem irrational, but he has just accurately perceived fate. So maybe Christopher is a lot more perceptive than we give him credit for!

Because for viewers and for the writers, Chris is the second choice, the lesser man, etc. So good for Chris, to see this for himself and walk out before someone else has to spell it out for him.

lemon tart · 01-31-2007, 11:38 AM

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Originally Posted by leonana (View Post)

ITA, lemon. Also, we've seen this throughout the whole series. The only mistake I've seen with this sl is that it should have taken place in S3, before L/L got together.

I agree, for viewers, it would have made more sense in S3, before Luke. But I think to really emphasize that Lorelai loves 2 men, it makes more sense from a storyline perspective to have it between her Luke relationships. If it happened before, then there wouldn't be any choice, seeing that she could be validly happy with either man. Nor would Chris's achilles heel be her love for Luke. Since none of that had happened as of yet.

I very much agree with your statement about timing and such. I said back in the summer that soul mates and true love were wrong paradigms for this show. That's not how love was presented. But as your best choice, and who you fit with best, at that time. That there might be multiple people that you might be able to live your life with and be happy with, but circumstances, you're not ready, each of you are in a diffferent place in your lives, etc., etc., makes you go in different directions. I think that's very much how love is shown on this particular show.

I think that's what happened at the end of last season. Lorelai LOVED Luke, Luke LOVED Lorelai, but while she wanted to get married, right then, he needed to concentrate on something else. So things fell apart, their priorities were different at that point. Enter Chris who has always loved Lorelai, and jumped at the chance since she was finally ready to marry him. But he's not going to be able to come to grips with the fact that she also loves Luke. Eventually, Luke will.

blaab · 01-31-2007, 11:40 AM

I am loving the writers right now, I think they will pull it off (for me anyway), well at least when it comes to L/C. I am more positive about Rory now also after this ep ... but I do feel I need a little more on that SL before I can be more sure ...

What I love most about this L/C business, and I think of this because of the article you just posted Lemon, is this;

Chris finally asks this question, this question that I have been wanting to hear all along, for plenty of eps I thought, is no-one gonna straight out ask her this question? Because even though I did always feel she loved Chris, I felt she really loved Luke differently, more maybe even, and was using Chris to run run run away and not deal with all that happened. And I do feel it started that way ... And then that moment finally arrives where Chris asks this: ''Is our marriage for you just basically marking time?'' And the moment that question is asked I feel NO, she is NOT just marking time. While I was leaning more to YES, she is ... for such a long time.

I was really surprised about how I apparantly had slowly changed my mind on this and how my perception of Lorelai has now changed also. And well I love being surprised!

damselfly · 01-31-2007, 11:44 AM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart

Oh, and also, like with Luke in TPDR, this was about Chris's insecurities, not who Lorelai does or does not love.

I half expected another "Enjoy Wisteria Lane, you major drama queen! Don't trip over a hedge on your way out!"

elduccia · 01-31-2007, 11:52 AM

Blaab I agree with you.

And thanks Cap for the long promo!

That "this isn't OK Chris" and him lettin' her down I hope will play a big part in the break up. They cannot spend all that time convincing us - me - that Lorelai wants this to work only to sweep it a away with a stupid "her feelings for Luke have haunted the marriage". I'd say more like "Chris insecurities have haunted this marriage".

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Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

I half expected another "Enjoy Wisteria Lane, you major drama queen! Don't trip over a hedge on your way out!"

Exactly.

damselfly · 01-31-2007, 11:55 AM

Can anyone read the name of the medical center in the promo?

Also, it looks like Luke brings them food from the diner -- he has a couple of bags with him, and one has the diner logo on it.

gjoni · 01-31-2007, 12:01 PM

blaab, Lemon, leonana - you make good points, I agree with many of them.

I said before that I thought the L/C fight was written quite well and Lorelai relayed the feeling that she really wanted and needed for this marriage to work.

I agree leonana, I also feel that this sl better suited seasons earlier. It's the timing. I also agree that Lorelai couldn't have written such a letter about Chris. I actually thought that compared to the way other stuff is written, the letter was toned down, not overly dramatic, but rather very simple, short, and heartfelt.

I think Lorelai does love Chris, I also think her love for Luke, as in romantic love, is undying, but has been buried deep under piles of defensive mechanisms and shields because she realized months before that it would never be mutual again, that it was essentially lost to her. But, I have seen how she periodically gets these jolts - coffee (yes, pun, I know), Doula, letter and normal marital issues Chris raises, which shake her a bit till she manages to once again turn off those thoughts and feelings.

I think the upcoming scenes with Chris and Luke, will cause that cap Lorelai put on her relationship and love for Luke (sort of what the Palladinos talked of), to fly off, and after that she'll find it difficult to put any of her Luke feelings back into the bottle.

Even as things turn out, be it Chris' immaturity, be it Luke's constant presence, I don't believe it'll be any easier for her coping with the failure and loss that is her and Chris.

Thanks Capp for the promo.

leonana · 01-31-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

I agree, for viewers, it would have made more sense in S3, before Luke. But I think to really emphasize that Lorelai loves 2 men, it makes more sense from a storyline perspective to have it between her Luke relationships. If it happened before, then there wouldn't be any choice, seeing that she could be validly happy with either man. Nor would Chris's achilles heel be her love for Luke. Since none of that had happened as of yet.

I very much agree with your statement about timing and such. I said back in the summer that soul mates and true love were wrong paradigms for this show. That's not how love was presented. But as your best choice, and who you fit with best, at that time. That there might be multiple people that you might be able to live your life with and be happy with, but circumstances, you're not ready, each of you are in a diffferent place in your lives, etc., etc., makes you go in different directions. I think that's very much how love is shown on this particular show.

I think that's what happened at the end of last season. Lorelai LOVED Luke, Luke LOVED Lorelai, but while she wanted to get married, right then, he needed to concentrate on something else. So things fell apart, their priorities were different at that point. Enter Chris who has always loved Lorelai, and jumped at the chance since she was finally ready to marry him. But he's not going to be able to come to grips with the fact that she also loves Luke. Eventually, Luke will.

Oh, I agree with that. Lorelai didn't go back to Chris after WBB because she could see he wasn't someone she wanted to comit to, and that Luke was. However, that changed in S6 when Luke let her down, and Chris was there for her. So S7 does make sense to me.

However, the problem I have with this sl is that I felt that Luke and Lorelai were too OOC in S6. I thought the way ASP went about the breakup was too contrived.

I agree that they haven't shown love on this show as "soulmates," and I do like the realism. However, it sucks sometimes to see your ship go down in flames, lol!

However, even though I am an L/L shipper, I'm an even bigger shipper of good writing. I felt we had that last night, so I'm satisfied. I hope it continues.

I also like the fact that Lorelai ending the marriage isn't about Luke, because it makes Lorelai look more sympathetic, she was trying to make her marriage work, and she wasn't being a complete flake. However, as I said before, it kind of sucks if you ship L/L.

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Even as things turn out, be it Chris' immaturity, be it Luke's constant presence, I don't believe it'll be any easier for her coping with the failure and loss that is her and Chris.

IA, and now she has another failure to contend with. I think her biggest problem is not being upfront with significant people in her life. Most of her problems with R/E, Luke, and Chris could have been avoided if she had actually talked to them. I know, that's been posted numerous times. I hope we finally see her grow out of that.

blaab · 01-31-2007, 12:04 PM

But I do feel because of certain things that happened in the beginning, Lorelai did not help the situation. I do feel she started off not in the best of ways in this marriage. I do feel that in the first eps living together and married Lorelai did have a hard time with the sharing and compromising. And I do feel this fueled Chris being insecure about Luke. It's almost like there was this balance that shifted. Chris was all in and well Lorelai wasn't completely in at first I felt (when it came to the sharing/compromising). We have this Emily visit, did it start there? Lorelai seems more 'in' to me after that visit, but Chris' insecurities have already been sparked and there we go ...

caf123 · 01-31-2007, 12:07 PM

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Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

It's weird though, how I sense my feelings of sympathy are changing for Lorelai and well that happened mostly because of this last ep and I guess the promo also helps. To see her really wanting this, even though she might have made some mistakes along the way too in this, does make me feel more for her. I am not solely thinking FALL ON YOUR FACE, FLAT ON IT, COME ON ... nope, I am starting to feel for her, because I do feel she is genuinely hurt by all this and really wants this to work and I dunno is less taking advantage of Chris as I might have felt before.

It's weird how my feelings are also changing – but so differently from yours. I used to feel for Lorelai, and now they’re killing that. I feel outrage rather than pity watching her consort with a sickening creep like Christopher.

I agree with you and secret_life that it looks like she’s really trying to make this marriage work. Maybe the next plot twist will change our impressions, but right now she’s showing genuine feelings for Christopher. I never expected something this low from her. What happened to her heart and her morals?

Emotionally, I've watched this show for so long, and know so much about it. Once that investment added depth and gave the show more meaning. Now it makes it harder to pull away, but I feel betrayal and disgust – so strongly, they overwhelm the rest of what was once a wonderful mosaic of a show.

blaab · 01-31-2007, 12:17 PM

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Originally Posted by caf123 (View Post)

It's weird how my feelings are also changing – but so differently from yours. I used to feel for Lorelai, and now they’re killing that. I feel outrage rather than pity watching her consort with a sickening creep like Christopher.

I agree with you and secret_life that it looks like she’s really trying to make this marriage work. Maybe the next plot twist will change our impressions, but right now she’s showing genuine feelings for Christopher. I never expected something this low from her. What happened to her heart and her morals?

Emotionally, I've watched this show for so long, and know so much about it. Once that investment added depth and gave the show more meaning. Now it makes it harder to pull away, but I feel betrayal and disgust – so strongly, they overwhelm the rest of what was once a wonderful mosaic of a show.

Well, it somehow makes sense that we disagree on this matter (or the feelings change in a different direction), since we have seen this differently all along. 'This' I guess being Chris.

I think the difference is that you look at this from a POV that clearly despises Chris ... a sickening creep, never expecting her to feel genuine feelings for him, so low, her heart and morals ... it to me seems all about how much you, well again, despise Chris.

I don't despise Chris and I have never seen Lorelai or Rory or Emily or Richard feel that way. I try to look at how Lorelai saw this man throughout this show and again I have never seen that. He was the man she wanted the whole package with for quite some time IF he would only get his act together. And she felt he did. And she never called him out on how he treated Rory. She was always part of making things about her and Chris and again not about Rory. So I really don't get why you never expected her to have genuine feelings for Chris, since she always had those I feel. Maybe not as strong as lately, but they were there ...

I am sorry you are overwhelmed by betrayal and disgust. I do feel though that has more to do with the way you perceive(d) this show (or parts of it) than I feel was showed on screen (and sure my perception is subjective also, but I somehow do feel that the way you feel Lorelai should see Chris has never even been close to being showed in that way, but sure, still subjective). I do feel this doesn't make your feelings any less valid though ... you feel that way.

clmorrow · 01-31-2007, 12:22 PM

Maybe on some level she is trying so hard with Chris and giving him this chance because she realizes she blew it last year by not giving Luke a chance, by not taking time to sit down and actually talk to him about how she was feeling and letting him know she felt they were growing apart. Maybe she realizes now that had she done that, they might have made it to the alter.

So, now, she is going out of her way to to not screw up so badly again. Who knows? This "journey" is just plain headscratching and stupid to me. So, I don't know what DR could be planning or thinking.

leonana · 01-31-2007, 12:22 PM

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Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

But I do feel because of certain things that happened in the beginning, Lorelai did not help the situation. I do feel she started off not in the best of ways in this marriage. I do feel that in the first eps living together and married Lorelai did have a hard time with the sharing and compromising. And I do feel this fueled Chris being insecure about Luke. It's almost like there was this balance that shifted. Chris was all in and well Lorelai wasn't completely in at first I felt (when it came to the sharing/compromising). We have this Emily visit, did it start there? Lorelai seems more 'in' to me after that visit, but Chris' insecurities have already been sparked and there we go ...

ITA. I noticed the same thing. The balance did shift after Emily's talk. They are going ahead with the vow renewal, and she and Chris aren't fighting about it. I assume she gave in and they are going to recite their vows.

It's a combination really. Chris pushing too fast, Lorelai's initial relunctance to compromise, Lorelai not being upfront about the letter, Chris' insecurities with Lorelai, etc. It's almost a comedy of errors. I do feel that if Chris had waited longer, and given Lorelai time, she would have been able to commit more fully in the beginning. However, he was afraid L/L would get back together if he waited too long, I'm guessing. However, he's losing her anyway, so he should have taken the chance.

caf, I get how you feel. The show has shown Lorelai having feelings for Chris since S1, however, that changed in WBB. However, ASP wanted to take the show in a different direction. I can't hate Lorelai, because she wrote that letter for Luke, in spite of knowing it would cause trouble with Chris. What can I say, I'm a Luke mark!

Tara Ashley · 01-31-2007, 12:28 PM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

Ya know, I think HE thinks he's her 2nd choice, I think to her, he's not. I think for Lorelai she has 2 equally valid choices, and loves them both, each feed a different part of her. But I don't see how you can look at how she reacted to his overreaction, and how she was looking for him the next morning and clearly hoping it would be him on the phone, not Luke, and see it any other way. She loves 2 men. She'll only live her life with one, and will be happy with him. Each have brought that very thing up, both are wrong.

In this episode, particularly in the fight and her morning after reactions, I see But the reality is she could be happy with either man. There is no 2nd choice, 2nd best, exept in the minds of Chris & Luke. Lorelai wanting the marriage to work. I never thought she ruled out having a kid, which was reinforced by what she said to Sookie. I'm not sure I'm seeing her doing the work I've talked about, but I'm not sure there's a chance for that, but I see an attitude that says she wants the marriage to work, which I saw in ILP & SSS as well.

They have to get rid of Chris. I realize things will change with him not showing up in the next episode, but as of right now, Chris is just as valid a choice, in Lorelai's mind & heart, as Luke ever was. Oh, and while Chris is unable to live with the idea that another man can be right for Lorelai, Luke will come to grips with it. Which is why he'll end up with her, and forgive her.

While I do wholeheartedly I agree that she loves both men, I don't think I would go as far to say as she'd be equally happy with both men. It's all in the viewer's perception, I suppose, but I have yet to see that true, passionate happiness that Lorelai felt when she was with Luke, with Chris. And as you said, she loves each differently -- they each feed a different part of her. IMO, Christopher does not feed the right part of her. He caters to her feelings of familiarity and comfort and that 16-year-old puppy love --which I don't doubt has grown into some sort of bigger love-- as well as completes her long-standing dream of having the whole package. Chris satisfies her and makes her happy, but IMO, Luke did much more. When Luke and Lorelai were together, they made each other better people. Maybe it's the extreme JJ in me talking, but I just don't see that with Christopher. So yes, she loves both and could be happy with both, but I don't think the love that she feels for Christopher or the happiness she feels as his wife can or will compare to how she feels for/about Luke.

I also think that in Lorelai's mind, Christopher will never be the kind of man Luke is. And I think this is where the letter was great, because as leonana said, it spoke of Luke's very soul, his very person. I'm not sure Lorelai could ever say anything similar about Chris. And that, in other ways, also makes Christopher her second choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

But I do feel because of certain things that happened in the beginning, Lorelai did not help the situation. I do feel she started off not in the best of ways in this marriage. I do feel that in the first eps living together and married Lorelai did have a hard time with the sharing and compromising. And I do feel this fueled Chris being insecure about Luke. It's almost like there was this balance that shifted. Chris was all in and well Lorelai wasn't completely in at first I felt (when it came to the sharing/compromising). We have this Emily visit, did it start there? Lorelai seems more 'in' to me after that visit, but Chris' insecurities have already been sparked and there we go ...

ITA. I myself am surprised at how my opinion has changed about Lorelai and her attempts. I thought I would find her absolutely pathetic in this episode, especially the fight scene, but I didn't. I saw a woman genuinely trying to make things work with the person she chose to be with. And while it kills me, because I know she does still love Luke, I think she has her heart in the right place during the fight. These are her choices and her decisions, and she wants to make them work.

clmorrow · 01-31-2007, 12:28 PM

Where is the info that says they are going through with the vow renewal? When would that happen? Richard is just out of the hospital and recovering and we know that C/L end - so when is it supposed to happen and where is the spoiler for this? I must have missed it. Thanks.