Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #144 ~ GG - Welcome To The Dark Side - Page 16

catkirk7 · 01-23-2007, 08:44 PM

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Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

It's not revisionist. In the S5 dvd commentary for YJIJJ, Daniel Palladino himself said that Luke was a father figure to Rory.

The gift discussion in the mall was actually revisionist. Although it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. If Luke had "never forgot a birthday" and had been buying her monogrammed unicorns all her life then why was Rory so suprised when he baked the cake and blew up balloons for her 16th? But it wasn't as bad as I thought and it's only Lorelai saying he was a father figure so, whatever.

ETA: something DP says in a commentary doesn't change what's been on the screen for the past 6.5 seasons, particularly since Rory went to school.

Thanks Sher

Rebeccajill · 01-23-2007, 08:48 PM

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Originally Posted by catkirk7 (View Post)

The gift discussion in the mall was actually revisionist. Although it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. If Luke had "never forgot a birthday" and had been buying her monogrammed unicorns all her life then why was Rory so suprised when he baked the cake and blew up balloons for her 16th? But it wasn't as bad as I thought and it's only Lorelai saying he was a father figure so, whatever.

And I can't imagine Luke knowing anything about monogramming. That's Emily's territory, and something she would do. It did seem revisionist.

Thanks Sher!

damselfly · 01-23-2007, 08:49 PM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart

If Lorelai really thought Rory needed a larger male presence in her life, why did she never say anything to him

Maybe that's the point? Lorelai didn't think Rory needed a larger male presence, because Luke was there. Maybe that's what made it easier to overlook the fact that Chris wasn't there, for a few years anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by catkirk

something DP says in a commentary doesn't change what's been on the screen for the past 6.5 seasons, particularly since Rory went to school

Coming from one of the head honchos, I think it shows what their intention in that relationship was.

Shanti70 · 01-23-2007, 08:51 PM

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I'm pretty sure that Ciao pointedly said that it was a romantic kind NOT just an academic crush.

It also was reported to "not lead to anything." So what's the harm?

Oh, by the way, great post, boru.

lemon tart · 01-23-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

Maybe that's the point? Lorelai didn't think Rory needed a larger male presence, because Luke was there. Maybe that's what made it easier to overlook the fact that Chris wasn't there, for a few years anyway?

Luke didn't meet Rory till she was 11. So even if Lorelai thinks he filled that role after that, no one did before that. And that still doesn't excuse her dismissal of Chris's guilt in GB. If she thought a paternal/father figure was important in Rory's life, which given the bit of the letter we heard it would seem she did, then she shouldn't have dismissed his own epiphany.

Tara Ashley · 01-23-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

It's not revisionist. In the S5 dvd commentary for YJIJJ, Daniel Palladino himself said that Luke was a father figure to Rory.

I think we just have to take it for what it is. And I honestly don't think the entire letter will revolve around Luke being a father-ish figure to Rory. I think it will be more about how he's been there for the girls in general.

The thing that still gets me about the "tell me you're not in love with him" is how it seems like they have never discussed this before. I just assumed that somewhere along the lines, this question --phrased differently of course-- would have already come up. Say, when they were dating?

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Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

She's finally letting the damn of anger against him open up and beginning to let it go. This isn't surprising, to me, nor upsetting.

Well put. It's as if we're seeing the ribbon of emotions she should have encountered months back.

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Originally Posted by TheJSW (View Post)

Since Chris would be there. He would have been there. If she would have asked. Yeah, it might have taken a few minutes, but upcoming events does not play into this. This whole letter is tapping into something deep in Chris. Which needs to be addressed because the guy is obviously still a conflicted mess about the past.
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I think it's sort of up in the air whether he would have been there if she had asked. Why was Lorelai so sure that Chris wouldn't agree to participate in Rory's coming out party? I'm honestly asking; I'm not trying to prove a point. I don't think I've done enough careful observation of the Chris/Rory relationship to really dig into this question.

carolav · 01-23-2007, 08:54 PM

Luke being a father figure for Rory talks really bad about the fatherhood. Until that I won't hear that sentence said by Rory, I will think that it is just in Lorelai mind.

TheJSW · 01-23-2007, 08:56 PM

Damsel, the creator herself, responded to that with something similar to..."No. No. No." I do feel that Laura has pegged it. This is Lorelai's version of events. Which are even MORE hurtful to Chris. Since Chris would be there. He would have been there. If she would have asked. Yeah, it might have taken a few minutes, but upcoming events does not play into this. This whole letter is tapping into something deep in Chris. Which needs to be addressed because the guy is obviously still a conflicted mess about the past.

Oh yeah, this could be for next week, but I would need some assistance. I plan to do clips for you people RIGHT after the episode airs. So, if you have any tips, then please share them in a PM. It would be appreciated.

catkirk7 · 01-23-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damselfly

Coming from one of the head honchos, I think it shows what their intention in that relationship was.

If that was their intention they did a poor job showing it.

El286 · 01-23-2007, 09:02 PM

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Originally Posted by TheJSW (View Post)

While the GGWT has had a hard time with TIME-MANAGEMENT SKILLZ this season. I will give them much dap for this episode. Since it was clearly an episode all about FAMILY. A family that has never been until now. A man making up for lost time with a daughter who is becoming his family. And finally a young family starting off on their very own adventure. Few episodes have been as very wistful as this episode. It was sad, but a good kind of sad. Easily one of my favourite episodes of this show...EVER.

I will state this; Rory's big first-half storyline was resolved via some of the most deft dialogue in the history of this series. However, her entire storyline, was RESOLVED IN 2 MINUTES! Rory deserves so much better than that treatment. While I love that Rory finally accepted her own **** does smell. She's A GILMORE! A GILMORE DESERVES MORE than her ENTIRE FIRST-HALF STORYLINE being resolved so quickly and deftly. I hope to Amy, that Rory has more of a role in a season which should be REVOLVING around her. If not, then, the show should end. Since the future lies with Type-0...not THE END. See? Eureka Seven is a much better reference.

Oh yeah, next week, is going to cause a lot of problems on this forum. Nothing will be more revisionist or OOC to have Lorelai think of Luke as a father-figure for Rory. This is bordering on ridiculous. He's not a father-figure to Rory. That Lorelai thinks he is...well...Chris has every right to slump off and be pissed. He has carried his guilt for years. That Lorelai would tell him "IT'S NO BIG DEAL." While refering to another man -- whose his rival -- as a FATHER FIGURE. Easily ranks as one of the worst moves made by Lorelai Gilmore in the history of this series. She deserves to have her marriage fail. Not only because she decided to ignore her heart because of sheer stubborness. She also betrayed someone in such a way that there's no coming back from.

Family. That was one of the reasons I really liked this episode, because I could see the two dynamics in a way I haven't been able to during other episodes. There's Chris, Gigi, and Rory: and Luke and April. And Lorelai--torn between two different families. Though to me, Christopher and Gigi are Lorelai and Rory's "real" family. No amount of absence or wishful thinking is going to change the fact that Chris is Rory's dad and Gigi is Rory's half-sister. Luke--there's a connection there based on his presence in their lives. But April--she's got a mom already: she doesn't need a stepmom. A mom who, for some reason, she doesn't seem too interested in being with. Perhaps because her mother has been turned into a jealous, irrational two-dimensional character whose only purpose is to frustrate Luke and Lorelai's romance?

I won't hide the fact that the major appeal of Chris and Lorelai, for me, is the idea of a deadbeat dad maturing and finally being there for his daughter and winning back the love of his high school sweetheart. I like seeing characters redeemed. And I know most of you don't believe that Chris has changed at all, but I loved seeing him bond with Rory and Gigi at the end of the episode. He's trying, for sure. Whether the writers have any interest in letting him show permanent growth is another story.

No matter how much Luke's done for Lorelai or what he's meant to her, it's a terrible time and place for Chris to find out. I don't blame Chris for being insecure about the letter. Seeing that kind of letter back in Season 1 would be one thing, seeing it in Season 7 after Lorelai married him and patted him on the back about his fathering skills is another thing.

damselfly · 01-23-2007, 09:05 PM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

Luke didn't meet Rory till she was 11. So even if Lorelai thinks he filled that role after that, no one did before that. And that still doesn't excuse her dismissal of Chris's guilt in GB. If she thought a paternal/father figure was important in Rory's life, which given the bit of the letter we heard it would seem she did, then she shouldn't have dismissed his own epiphany.

That's why I said for a few years. Who knows about the earlier years, but it would seem Luke at least filled a void for a while. In GB, I felt she was trying to make Chris feel better, because at that point why beat him up over it.

lancer1993 · 01-23-2007, 09:08 PM

I thought the point of the letter was Lorelai thoughts about Luke being a father?

Don't get me wrong I want to see what Rory thinks, maybe after Lorelai will show her the letter to help explain the break up?

El286 · 01-23-2007, 09:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Tara Ashley (View Post)

The thing that still gets me about the "tell me you're not in love with him" is how it seems like they have never discussed this before. I just assumed that somewhere along the lines, this question --phrased differently of course-- would have already come up. Say, when they were dating?

That's what bothers me about the whole marriage storyline. Why, why, why did Lorelai have to get married and build a new family with Gigi and everything before she realized that she was still in love with Luke? Before she remembered what a good guy Luke was in the past? Couldn't she have had those realizations, say, before she decided to date Chris? Or at least after she'd been dating him for a while?

What was the point of her marriage?

I figured she dated Chris because she hated the way Luke treated her and she decided that he didn't really love her anymore. Maybe she did still have feelings for him, but why hang on to those feelings if you think they aren't going to be returned? Logically, she moved on. So why is she suddenly now thinking, "Oh, but Luke was so nice to me and Rory and I think I'd rather be with him than Christopher?" That actually sounds very unhealthy to me. I mean, nothing has changed (beyond them starting to return to their pre-dating friendship) since she broke up with Luke. The reasons she didn't want to be in a romantic relationship with him, still exist: he did treat her badly and she has no reason to think he still loves her.

lemon tart · 01-23-2007, 09:20 PM

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Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

That's why I said for a few years. Who knows about the earlier years, but it would seem Luke at least filled a void for a while. In GB, I felt she was trying to make Chris feel better, because at that point why beat him up over it.

Because HE brought it up. He finally was realizing what he'd done and she dismissed it. Pretty much told him it didn't matter. Encouraged him to not do the same with Gigi? Which might have happened but I've blocked it out.

tazzded · 01-23-2007, 09:22 PM

Jason, I sent you a PM.