Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #130 ~ We're Still Waiting For Santa - Page 5

Shu · 01-04-2007, 08:39 PM

please can we get beyond the petty arguments....This is me begging....

Ciaobella · 01-04-2007, 08:39 PM

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Originally Posted by genki (View Post)

same tree?

Yup, same tree. Can't wait until 7.12 when that sucker is coming down. Timber!

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I believe what I've seen on the screen and Rory has not been close to Luke. She barely sees him anymore. After all, I wasn't the one having a tizzy because Rory wasn't all broken up about Luke's diner being destroyed or that she didn't go over and comfort him afterwards. And, that's just one instance. She just hasn't had the relationship with him that many of you have in your own heads.

Our heads, and David Babcock's head and Jamie Babbitt's head and........

MickeyJr3000 · 01-04-2007, 08:40 PM

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No way. No one wants to hear someone--and a childhood/teenage sweetheart, at that-- tell you that he/she and your significant other are meant to be together. Regardless of how much faith you have in your relationship and regardless of how little you care about what others think of your relationship, it has to sting a little. Chris did hurt Luke by saying that, and Luke would have still been hurt even if the part about "Emily thinks so" had been left out.

What she said.

Chris has also hurt Rory, and he has hurt Lorelai in the past. I did not say that he IS hurting Lorelai currently. We all know his moves as of recently have been terribly miscalculated and soon he will be paying for those miscalculations. It's nice that he's so 'in love' with Lorelai and 'committed' to her, but the fact of the matter is, he lets that get in the way of EVERYTHING else. It's one thing to put your sweetheart up on a pedestal and worship her, but when you start thinking stupidly by proposing Paris elopements (quicky no doubt) when the woman says clearly that ITS TOO SOON, and forgetting about family priorities(Gigi and Rory are second to the elopement as they are not involved in it nor told about it prior). And making babies on the spot, again without prior discussion or consideration on its impact on future lives, especially Gigi. The mistakes he's made grate so badly, because the guy can't see past his own nose, and as such, he continuously make decisions without considering all aspects of the decisions he makes.

He deserves to see his marriage implode IMO. Because seriously, the way it's imploding is LAUGHABLE in comparison to how other marriages, engagements, and relationships on the show have imploded. Lorelai's not pining after Luke. She's merely writing a very respectable character letter expressing her trust in Luke's abilities as a father, in relation to how he has behaved with Rory. The thing is, Christopher is SO incredibly suspicious all the time that he can't let this 'Luke' thing go and percieves 'Luke' as some giant obstacle or complication (in the moments we've seen him see or talk about Luke this season). The marriage is going to fall apart over a LETTER, he's going to blow up because Lorelai wrote a nice LETTER.

Seriously, if he wasn't as paranoid and MeMeMe as he is, if he were a normal man, he'd read Lorelai's note and sense what a nice gesture she's doing for her ex-fiancee, and he'd notice how close the ex-fiancee was to her family...which sounds normal for circumstances in which broken up couples remain acquaintences. A current boyfriend shouldn't read into it and become jealous...it's not like Lorelai talks about Luke every day in conversation or has suspicious run-ins with him around town every week. It's a FRIGGEN LETTER. Get over it, Christopher. However, he can't, as he takes all these tiny little issues and blows them up (then walks away), making it difficult for Lorelai and him to reach compromise. Example - the wedding party and making babies. Because Lorelai seemed happy with Doola but didn't want to make a baby RIGHT AWAY when Chris did, apparently that means that Lorelai's not into the marriage.

Get a grip man, she's into the marriage quite fine even though she's not totally ecstatic about it (she knows she's settled for second). She seriously wouldn't be going anywhere if Christopher stopped being such a whiny boy. The Emily/Lorelai talk in 7.10 suggested to me that Lorelai IS afraid of living alone for the rest of her life, and she probably wants this marriage to last because she feels this is her last chance at marriage. No, not the best circumstances to be married in, but again, Christopher, she ISN'T seeking out of it for heaven's sake!

And yeah, he did a hell of a lot of damage to Luke over the years. Sure, Lorelai may have been the one to cheat on Luke, but CHRISTOPHER was the one she cheated with. It's just like what Lindsay's mom said to Lorelai in 5.02: Rory had BROKEN UP A MARRIAGE, and because of her, Lindsay was miserable. Now, it was not ALL Rory's fault...Dean was at fault too.

It takes TWO to tango, and so, Lorelai is NOT the only one who hurt Luke. Christopher hurt him too, indirectly, by helping Lorelai break up the engagement. The fact that he slept with her when she was broken-hearted and emotionally distraught, while he was completely emotionally conscious, just makes him look worse. Add to that that he thought it was the best night of his life for him, and he KNEW that Lorelai was still engaged to Luke that night since she had the ring on. And he KNEW that Lorelai was engaged with Luke for the past several months. It only makes him look worse.

That's rant number two. I know it's just my opinion and that others aren't going to see it like I do. Oh well.

ETA:

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same tree?

Yup! Always. To add to the beautiful tree of the discussion regarding Rory and her unfatherly figures:
Someone said that Luke didn't say a WORD to Rory in the teaser of the pilot episode. Well, to make things even, I'm not sure Richard said anything to her in the pilot other than 'She's tall."

And he promptly went back to reading, and later, falling asleep at the dinner table instead of talking to his granddaughter.

That said, I am not a fan of the "unfatherly" debate, firstly because we've heard about it dozens of times before on the thread, secondly, because I don't think there's a clear answer. Everyone could be right and everyone could be wrong.

**Katiegg108** · 01-04-2007, 08:41 PM

Seriously, what if in the letter Lorelai says that Luke was a great father figure to Rory for years? What will you all say? Will you just dismiss it as Lorelai being crazy? Or as the new writers not understanding the show?

I agree with Clmorrow here. Why can't all these men (and I'm including Chris), all be important male/father figures in her life in their own ways? Luke's always been an important, steady friend to Rory and cares about her a ton. Chris is her father. She love him, and he's finally here now trying. Richard is, IMO, the top male figure, though, he loves Rory to death, paid for her schooling, wants her to have amazing things in life, she always turns to him, etc.

lancer1993 · 01-04-2007, 08:43 PM

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Originally Posted by iamsher (View Post)

Richard has been more of a father to Rory than ANYONE. Have you not been watching the show? Or is it because you only watch for LL scenes? Seriously, how can you say that Richard hasn't been shown as Rory's father figure? Seriously, Craig? I thought you were smarter than that.

I'm NOT SAYING THAT all I said was what if LORELAI says it in the letter then what she's a liar and lied to the court?

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Seriously, what if in the letter Lorelai says that Luke was a great father figure to Rory for years? What will you all say? Will you just dismiss it as Lorelai being crazy? Or as the new writers not understanding the show?

Thank you Katie that's all I was trying to say!

I'm waiting on the letter and not saying who I think it is outright my personal opinion is each man in her life play there own special part in her life so far.

Shu · 01-04-2007, 08:44 PM

never mind

Sandlynn · 01-04-2007, 08:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

Yup, same tree. Can't wait until 7.12 when that sucker is coming down. Timber!

Oh really. Developments on this show haven't stopped JJs from going on and on about characters acting OOC, the writing being poor, the show not being true to itself, not recognizing things that have happened in the past, etc. and so on.

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I'm NOT SAYING THAT all I said was what if LORELAI says it in the letter then what she's a liar and lied to the court?

She's definitely basing these statements on guilt over how her relationship with Luke worked out -- and pity -- and not on the truth.

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Seriously, what if in the letter Lorelai says that Luke was a great father figure to Rory for years? What will you all say? Will you just dismiss it as Lorelai being crazy? Or as the new writers not understanding the show?

Yes, because it hasn't been backed by what they've shown on the screen. You know that old saying, show don't tell. I find it very amusing that you all put more stock in David Babcock, Mr. French Twist, than you do ASP who conceived this world and certainly didn't show Luke as Rory's father figure in anybody's head ... not even Lorelai's.

lemon tart · 01-04-2007, 08:47 PM

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Originally Posted by lancer1993 (View Post)

Much the same as Richard it is fans wishes and fanfic, whether it comes true (in Lorelai's eyes) we will know is a few weeks.

You see, this is where we differ, I don't need fan fic, I have show canon:

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Clearly. The guy she had help her with a school project. The girl he wanted to fill in all the holes in her personal library. One of her "twin pillars." The one he wanted to follow in his footsteps at his alma mater. The same one he shared multiple lunches at at that same institution. The same person she was first distressed over his separation from his wife and later actively sought to reunite them. The same person she turned to when she went through a personal crisis. And the best man at the vow renewal.

Turning to someone during the crisis of your life is quite different from making someone coffee cake for their 16th birthday.

You seem to think that those of us that are Rory fans actually CARE what Lorelai has to say, and the reality is we, or I, do NOT. She can say whatever the hell she wants. There's no indication that Rory thinks of Luke as her father figure in anything but fans such as yourselves minds and fan fic. What RORY thinks is all I care about. Lorelai and what she thinks really doesn't matter to me. Not on this issue. It's Rory's personal feelings. No one else's.

catkirk7 · 01-04-2007, 08:49 PM

Mickey, I can't reconcile the two ideas you're putting out there that Chris shouldn't be jealous and also Lorelai "knows she settled for second." They're COMPLETELY contradictory. It's just a way to hate Chris for overreacting to the letter while maintaining a stance that Lorelai will always love Luke best. It doesnt' hold though.

We don't know what happened in Partings. But since Lorelai was under the impression that she and Luke were broken up I'm certain she told Chris straight out that they were broken up. It's not at all the same as Dean's "Lindsay know's it's over." That was not a clear we're broken up. Even Rory knew it wasn't clear. I'm not a Rory apologist. I know she was in the wrong there. But it's not the same as Chris and Lorelai. LORELAI shouldn't have had sex with Chris so soon and LORELAI shouldn't have given the ultimatum in that fashion. But Chris doesn't owe Luke anything.

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Originally Posted by Laura

You seem to think that those of us that are Rory fans actually CARE what Lorelai has to say, and the reality is we, or I, do NOT. She can say whatever the hell she wants. There's no indication that Rory thinks of Luke as her father figure in anything but fans such as yourselves minds and fan fic. What RORY thinks is all I care about. Lorelai and what she thinks really don't matter to me.

I agree. That's not to say that I won't roll my eyes if Lorelai says Luke was Rory's father figure. But if Rory says it, my head WILL explode.

iamsher · 01-04-2007, 08:49 PM

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Originally Posted by lancer1993 (View Post)

I'm NOT SAYING THAT all I said was what if LORELAI says it in the letter then what she's a liar and lied to the court?

Thank you Katie that's all I was trying to say!

I'm waiting on the letter and not saying who I think it is outright my personal opinion is each man in her life play there own special part in her life so far.

She'd be lying to herself and in turn, to everyone else if she all of a sudden decides that Luke was Rory's father figure. Where has this EVER been shown or alluded to? Just because someone makes another mashed potatoes because they have the chicken pox doesn't make them a parental figure. If they did, then I'd have a ****load of pseudo-parents.

Ciaobella · 01-04-2007, 08:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Sandlynn (View Post)

Oh really. Developments on this show haven't stopped JJs from going on and on about characters acting OOC, the writing being poor, the show not being true to itself, not recognizing things that have happened in the past, etc. and so on.

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LUKE: Well, things change, my friend.

JESS: Oh, yeah?

LUKE: Stay tuned.

LCSHF

You should probably take cover so that tree doesn't fall on your head.

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You seem to think that those of us that are Rory fans actually CARE what Lorelai has to say, and the reality is we, or I, do NOT. She can say whatever the hell she wants. There's no indication that Rory thinks of Luke as her father figure in anything but fans such as yourselves minds and fan fic. What RORY thinks is all I care about. Lorelai and what she thinks really don't matter to me.

Ah, but it's Rory's thoughts and words about Luke in 7.11 that inspire Lorelai to write that letter. I guess Rory doesn't know what she's talking about either?

lancer1993 · 01-04-2007, 08:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Sandlynn

She's definitely basing these statements on guilt over how her relationship with Luke worked out -- and pity -- and not on the truth.

So she lied to the court?

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Originally Posted by iamsher

She'd be lying to herself and in turn, to everyone else.

So she lied to the court??

caf123 · 01-04-2007, 08:51 PM

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Originally Posted by clmorrow (View Post)

Why does everything have to be all or nothing? Why can't Luke have been an important, long-term friend in Rory's life who did what he could to help when needed and why can't Richard be the thoughtful grandfather that he is, doing things that grandfathers do?

Why not indeed? Since that's what really happened

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Is there some reason she can't have had both of these men in her life in a meaningful way? She's pretty fortunate to have both, in my opinion.

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The only thing I don't read being debated is whether Chris was really her father figure - for obvious reasons.

Yeah. Funny, that.

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Especially ASP, who intended "Luke" to be a woman! If Luke is revaled to be a "father figure" that is in contradiction to ASP's original intent.

ASP had no original intent.

What she did originally was to follow where the characters naturally led - that was one of the show's greatest strengths. She's less skilled at imposing story arcs - and the real problems started when she got bored, or angry, or burnt out, or whatever led her to start pulling soap opera plots and cheating storylines out of her hat.

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(Now, if the letter said Luke was a "mother figure" to Rory. . .)

Then our discussion here tonight would be a great deal more interesting than it actually is.

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People talk about how LL were meant to be from the pilot. Yet in the first scene Rory is in the diner and her "father figure" doesn't say a word to her.

He's not her father figure. She acted pleased and proud that he was her stepfather-to-be.

Hopefully, Rory will open her mouth when she and Lorelai reminesce about Luke. It would be a secret santa present to fans indeed if Rory spoke for herself about his impact on her life.

As for the court - Luke clearly contributed more to Rory's life growing up than her biological father. Lorelai describing Luke's role in the life of a child who wasn't his own, is likely to weigh on the court - it's quite relevant to the issue facing that court.

Shu · 01-04-2007, 08:54 PM

so let me get this straight cause right now i am confused.

Are you saying that you believe that Rory doesn't give a rats ass about luke or are you just saying he's not her father figure. I don't agree with the former but i do with the latter.

catkirk7 · 01-04-2007, 08:54 PM

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Originally Posted by caf

He's not her father figure. She acted pleased and proud that he was her stepfather-to-be.

Just as she was with Max.

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Originally Posted by genki (View Post)

so let me get this straight cause right now i am confused.

Are you saying that you believe that Rory doesn't give a rats ass about luke or are you just saying he's not her father figure. I don't agree with the former but i do with the latter.

I'm saying the latter and also that Richard is the closest thing she has to a father figure.