Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #130 ~ We're Still Waiting For Santa - Page 3

lancer1993 · 01-04-2007, 07:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Tara Ashley (View Post)

Can I still vote for when Lorelai goes back to the diner? I vote 7.12

ETA: I apologize for my RL shipper comment earlier; was just frustrated with the negativity/bitterness that so often surfaces.

Done

And we'll be voting up until we know 100% when Lorelai goes to the diner, that includes going and Luke not being there. And also why Chris is not at the hospital in 13.

BTW great post Mickey and I agree to a large extent Chris has bought this on him self, but much like Luke did but not reading the signs, maybe the question should be was Lorelai more open with Chris than Luke and he still didn't see the signs?

**Katiegg108** · 01-04-2007, 07:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Sandlynn (View Post)

Well, that's a pretty interesting point, and quite ironic, don't you think? The one person he wouldn't let anywhere near his daughter for fear that she would steal her affections, he wants to write a letter for him about what a great person he is.

It is odd, and I don't think Luke would ask her unless he really felt that she'd be able to write the best letter. It's not like Sookie or Patty know him well enough to really write a good letter, and I doubt a letter from his sister would be able to be used in court. Family bias and whatever.

That's also why it'll probably be hard for Lorelai to first to write this letter. Maybe not believing that he'd actually ask her after how much he decided to include her last year in things with April, not to mention the hurt and anger she still proabably feels in regards to Luke.

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Which, strangely enough, Rory has never mentioned or shown, herself.

She has shown minor appreciations for Luke in the past, but nothing that would really fit this "how important Luke has always been in Rory's life." So I do hope that the description's stretching that aspect a bit much.

But I also think that maybe some of what she remembers will probably be triggered by Rory talking about Luke being there as well, and not just all Lorelai's assumptions of how Rory feels.

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He deserves to have his marriage fall to pieces? The one he entered out of love and a desire to commit? In other words, he deserves as much pain as possible.

he doesn't deserve this at all. And I hate comments about how he does deserve this. No one deserves to have the marriage that they committed to, a marriage to the woman he's loved for 22+ years to just be torn out from underneath them.

catkirk7 · 01-04-2007, 07:37 PM

Mickey, Chris has hurt Rory. Period. He should have helped Lorelai, but Lorelai likes being Wonder Woman. If she didn't and him not being around had really hurt her she wouldn't have kept sleeping with him. Not once did Chris come close to raping her in any way. He kept coming back for Lorelai because she kept letting him. He hurt her when he left at the end of S2 but even Lorelai understood why he left even if he was a completely oblivious about her feelings in DEAR.

As for him hurting Luke? He doesn't owe Luke anything. What he said in WBB hurt Luke because Luke was already insecure about the Gilmores' feelings about him. If he was secure about their relationship it wouldn't have meant anything. Chris was clearly drunk and Luke knows Lorelai doesn't put any stock in Emily's opinions and, in fact, actively goes against them. As for sleeping with Lorelai in partings, again, he doesn't owe Luke anything. They're not friends. I imagine Lorelai told him they broke up and Chris has loved her forever. He's not going to turn her away. Luke had every right to be mad at Lorelai here. Lorelai hurt him. Chris owes him nothing.

Chris hurt Rory. He hurt Lorelai in a relationship sense but you can't hate someone for that. When a relationship ends (or in this case doesn't get a chance to start) someone's going to get hurt. In this case, they both did. Chris did what he thought was best. I'm not saying Chris is perfect. He was a crappy dad.

lancer1993 · 01-04-2007, 07:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Sandlynn

Oh, I'm sure it'll be quite the work of fiction.

But once it's part of the Gilmore world is it fiction then? If this is how Lorelai feels and not the fans opinion then people should get past it, JJs accept that C&L married, BBs need to accept what every Lorelai wrote.

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Throwing people physically out of his restaurant is just verbal and funny? Going after bicyclists with a bat is just verbal and funny? Getting in a fight with a teenage boy is just verbal and funny? Pushing his nephew in the pond is just verbal and funny? (Let's leave aside the unprovoked attack on Christopher, since it appears to be okay to hit him.) Luke definitely has violent tendencies that should've had him in Court, if not in jail a number of times. More than just the once when he "beat up a car".

Running across the town square to try and punch someone who looked at your wife!

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Talking's not enough for these people. Didn't they talk in AVV? It's patterns of behavior that have evolved over *years* that's the problem. It's not so easy to break these bad habits. You know the old saying about teaching old dogs new tricks.

But they didn't talk about the important stuff in AVV.

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Wow. That's about as long as they were apart after WBB. And, considering that 7.22 will probably be in set in May, that's not much time.

Luke and Lorelai broke up in SS, they were then apart ONE FULL ep (Jews & Chinese Food) before coming back at the end of So..Good Talk.

Tara Ashley · 01-04-2007, 07:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Sandlynn (View Post)

Which, strangely enough, Rory has never mentioned or shown, herself.

There has been at least one scene in which she's talked about Luke always being there for her and her mom. That aside, does it really matter all that much if she's mentioned it? As viewers we have watched Luke be a staple in the Lorelais' lives --not a statuesque father figure-- but nevertheless, an ever-present shoulder to lean on, a person who cares for them unconditionally. Something doesn't have to be acknowledged to exist. However, if in ep 11, Rory starts talking about how much of a father he's been to her, as opposed to an amazing friend who sometimes border-lined guardian, then that will be odd. But I don't think the writers are that stupid. Right?

I don't think we should expect Rory to be able to identify a father-like figure in her life anyways. Not that I think Luke is one. But Rory was never raised to "need" a father, and she has no prototype for a great father, at that. Richard to Lorelai? Not the warmest relationship. Mr. Kim to Lane? (?!) Mitchum to Logan? Not quite. Rory knows Chris, her own father who she's adored but who's let her down more times than not, and she knows Luke, a solid friend. Neither is the father-figure. But Luke, IMO, takes the lead.

catkirk7 · 01-04-2007, 07:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Tara Ashely

Richard to Lorelai? Not the warmest relationship. Mr. Kim to Lane? (?!) Mitchum to Logan? Not quite. Rory knows Chris, her own father who she's adored but who's let her down more times than not, and she knows Luke, a solid friend. Neither is the father-figure. But Luke, IMO, takes the lead.

What about Richard to Rory. I think that Richard is the closest thing Rory's had to a stable father figure even if it's only been in the past few years. Just because the writers have let that great relationship fall to the wayside doesn't erase it.

Lady_Amalcia · 01-04-2007, 07:56 PM

Why do we call Richard a father figure towards Rory??

Tara Ashley · 01-04-2007, 07:57 PM

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Originally Posted by catkirk7 (View Post)

What he said in WBB hurt Luke because Luke was already insecure about the Gilmores' feelings about him. If he was secure about their relationship it wouldn't have meant anything.

No way. No one wants to hear someone--and a childhood/teenage sweetheart, at that-- tell you that he/she and your significant other are meant to be together. Regardless of how much faith you have in your relationship and regardless of how little you care about what others think of your relationship, it has to sting a little. Chris did hurt Luke by saying that, and Luke would have still been hurt even if the part about "Emily thinks so" had been left out.

Ciaobella · 01-04-2007, 07:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Labyrith (View Post)
im so excited to here the letter!!!

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Originally Posted by Sandlynn (View Post)

Oh, I'm sure it'll be quite the work of fiction.

What??? And the rest of the show is.....a documentary??? So tell us, what really happened during those six -eight years prior to Season One. You seem to know their "true history". Do we believe the version of Gilmore Girls According to Sandlynn, or according to the writers who created this "work of fiction"? And what makes your version more real than what the writers tell us?

Please, tell us. Since we weren't witness to Luke and Lorelai and Rory's life between the years of 1990 -2000, it would be nice know if Luke indeed made mash potatoes for Rory when she had chicken pox. Or attended her caterpiller's funeral. Or if he were really there, instead of not there, like her father chose to be.

Cos, gosh if Lorelai were lying to the court in her letter, that would be perjury

!

lemon tart · 01-04-2007, 08:00 PM

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Originally Posted by catkirk7 (View Post)

What about Richard to Rory. I think that Richard is the closest thing Rory's had to a stable father figure even if it's only been in the past few years. Just because the writers have let that great relationship fall to the wayside doesn't erase it.

Clearly. The guy she had help her with a school project. The girl he wanted to fill in all the holes in her personal library. One of her "twin pillars." The one he wanted to follow in his footsteps at his alma mater. The same one he shared multiple lunches at at that same institution. The same person she was first distressed over his separation from his wife and later actively sought to reunite them. The same person she turned to when she went through a personal crisis.

The only reason he didn't bond with her sooner is he wasn't allowed to know her, by Lorelai. After Emily forced the issue with the FNDs he quickly bonded with her in KMN and has rarely looked backward as far as trying to look out for Rory, and do the things she needed in a male figure in her life.

That's Richard. Not Luke. Not Chris. Richard.

Tara Ashley · 01-04-2007, 08:02 PM

I agree about the Richard stuff. But it always seemed more of a grandfather/granddaughter relationship than a father/daughter relationship, to me. Which is what it was, of course. So I make no sense. Just never really saw Richard as the father figure.

catkirk7 · 01-04-2007, 08:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Lady_Amalcia (View Post)

Why do we call Richard a father figure towards Rory??

What Lemon said.

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Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

Clearly. The guy she had help her with a school project. The girl he wanted to fill in all the holes in her personal library. The one he wanted to follow in his footsteps at his alma mater. The same one he shared multiple lunches at at that same institution. The same person she was first distressed over his separation from his wife and later actively sought to reunite them. The same person she turned to when she went through a personal crisis.

The only reason he didn't bond with her sooner is he wasn't allowed to know her, by Lorelai. After Emily forced the issue with the FNDs he quickly bonded with her in KMN and has rarely looked backward as far as trying to look out for Rory, and do the things she needed in a male figure in her life.

That's Richard. Not Luke. Not Chris. Richard.

Plus, the man in her life that she made sure to keep a relationship with when Lorelai was fighting with him.

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Originally Posted by Tara Ashley

I agree about the Richard stuff. But it always seemed more of a grandfather/granddaughter relationship than a father/daughter relationship, to me. Which is what it was, of course. So I make no sense. Just never really saw Richard as the father figure.

Which is why I said the closest thing. He's much closer than Luke.

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Originally Posted by Tara Ashley

No way. No one wants to hear someone--and a childhood/teenage sweetheart, at that-- tell you that he/she and your significant other are meant to be together. Regardless of how much faith you have in your relationship and regardless of how little you care about what others think of your relationship, it has to sting a little. Chris did hurt Luke by saying that, and Luke would have still been hurt even if the part about "Emily thinks so" had been left out.

To the extent that he would have broken up with Lorelai? I don't think so.

Lady_Amalcia · 01-04-2007, 08:08 PM

I also see this rather as a grandfather/granddaughter relationship...
Of course Chris could be a father figure, even a bad one maybe, but she always says he is her dad. I would rather say Richard is her Male role model.

lemon tart · 01-04-2007, 08:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Tara Ashley (View Post)

I agree about the Richard stuff. But it always seemed more of a grandfather/granddaughter relationship than a father/daughter relationship, to me. Which is what it was, of course. So I make no sense. Just never really saw Richard as the father figure.

He doesn't have to be her "father" to fill the male/paternal role that she's sought at times. That doesn't mean he's her "father figure" either. But he is the paternal/male figure in her life she turns to. For advice, guidance, approval, support, love, etc., etc.

It's closer/different than grandparent/grandchild. He's the go to male figure in her life. Which is one that's usually filled by someone's father, not grandfather.

Tara Ashley · 01-04-2007, 08:12 PM

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Originally Posted by catkirk7 (View Post)

To the extent that he would have broken up with
Lorelai? I don't think so.

But you said "as far as Chris hurting Luke?". And even if Luke hadn't ended up breaking up with Lorelai, he still would have been hurt. So yes, Chris hurt Luke. Inadvertently, but yes.