Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #130 ~ We're Still Waiting For Santa - Page 17

caf123 · 01-05-2007, 01:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

blaab, it seems to me that for every Canonization into Sainthood, there is an opposing need to totally disregard or sully Luke's role in Rory's life. I can understand a need to adjust exaggerated fanwanking, but now they are even saying if the writers write it and if Lorelai says it and if Rory thinks it, it's still not true.

Why even bother to watch the show? lol

On second thoughts - hey, why not write our own version of events. I've got my little list of storylines ready - as the song says, "they'd none of them be missed". Heh.

MickeyJr3000 · 01-05-2007, 01:30 PM

So, are we gonna get a podcast today?

And how about 7.15 casting notices?

And how did you guys start going around the Rory/Boat/Logan tree again...???

We're just frollicking from one tree to the next these days...nothing else to do in this rather empty forest.

blaab · 01-05-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

blaab, it seems to me that for every Canonization into Sainthood, there is an opposing need to totally disregard or sully Luke's role in Rory's life. I can understand a need to adjust exaggerated fanwanking, but now they are even saying if the writers write it and if Lorelai says it and if Rory thinks it, it's still not true.

I see a more sinister agenda other than correcting misperceptions. JMO.

Well, I personally see more Canonization into Sainthood as you call it than the opposing need to totally disregard or sully Luke's role in Rory's life. That is just my experience or the way I read things. Like I said I feel most posters agree on Luke having a positive influence on her life. Not many to almost none seem to disagree about that.

I personally am not thinking at all Rory will state that Luke was like a father to her. If she would state so, my eyebrows would rise a little too, because well, if he was like a father to her, I would think I would have seen more of that kind of relationship as I have seen in the last two seasons. Maybe her calling him just for the sake of letting him know how she is doing. I haven't seen anyone claim they wouldn't believe Rory if she would state that Luke did nice things for her and that was appreciated by her and even important to her. That is to me very different than stating he was like a father to her.

Seperately, I feel you are adding all these things together as one thing, I read the point being made that this is a letter written from Lorelais POV. We still have to wait and see what Rory does say in ep 11 and how this will be represented in the letter. Other from what Rory tells Lorelai herself is yeah just Lorelais experience and how she thinks Rory feels about Luke.

And about a sinister agenda. It depends on whatever POV you have I guess. I can easily say also, someone is having a sinister agenda when a poster makes one character to be a saint at the cost of the way another character has been portrayed (in this case Rory), of course this is subjective also. Again this is what I see happening and I am getting the impression some others are thinking this also ... I personally find the use of the word sinister a little too strong though ...

lemon tart · 01-05-2007, 01:41 PM

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Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

Lorelai, or anyone else, dispelling 'the rich and privileged' notion wouldn't have affected the outcome. Rich or not, Rory would've received the same sentence no matter what.

If the judge had no agenda then Rory's percieved background never would have come up. She made her statements, and her sentence, because of who she thought Rory was. Would she have made those same statements to someone she knew had Rory's background? No. Which answers the question. She had an agenda, to prove she couldn't be influenced by money and priviledge, thus she went the other direction.

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Originally Posted by damselfly (View Post)

We've reached an impasse, so what the more likely scenario? That Luke would accept this extravagant gift from a 'punk' he could barely tolerate, or that he would insist on paying for it? I'd say #2.

Conversely, I don't see Logan taking Luke's money. Even if Luke wanted to pay for it. He gave it to Luke as a gift, not as something he was selling Luke. The only way Luke might have had to pay for it at that time was a check. Do you see Logan cashing it or ripping it up? I'd say ripping it up, which would mean Logan still was the person that paid for the necklace, no matter Luke's intent.

lilmelodie · 01-05-2007, 01:56 PM

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Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

Well, I personally see more Canonization into Sainthood as you call it than the opposing need to totally disregard or sully Luke's role in Rory's life. That is just my experience or the way I read things. Like I said I feel most posters agree on Luke having a positive influence on her life. Not many to almost none seem to disagree about that.

I personally am not thinking at all Rory will state that Luke was like a father to her. If she would state so, my eyebrows would rise a little too, because well, if he was like a father to her, I would think I would have seen more of that kind of relationship as I have seen in the last two seasons. Maybe her calling him just for the sake of letting him know how she is doing. I haven't seen anyone claim they wouldn't believe Rory if she would state that Luke did nice things for her and that was appreciated by her and even important to her. That is to me very different than stating he was like a father to her.

Seperately, I feel you are adding all these things together as one thing, I read the point being made that this is a letter written from Lorelais POV. We still have to wait and see what Rory does say in ep 11 and how this will be represented in the letter. Other from what Rory tells Lorelai herself is yeah just Lorelais experience and how she thinks Rory feels about Luke.

And about a sinister agenda. It depends on whatever POV you have I guess. I can easily say also, someone is having a sinister agenda when a poster makes one character to be a saint at the cost of the way another character has been portrayed (in this case Rory), of course this is subjective also. Again this is what I see happening and I am getting the impression some others are thinking this also ... I personally find the use of the word sinister a little too strong though ...

I agree. This whole conversation is making me a little nuts. I mean, really, if people want to think that Luke is Rory's dad or whatever, fine. Some people like to ship Luke and Rory. To each his own. I have a feeling this discussion will seem pretty silly after we watch 7.11 and hear what they have to say.

Ciaobella · 01-05-2007, 01:57 PM

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Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

I personally am not thinking at all Rory will state that Luke was like a father to her. If she would state so, my eyebrows would rise a little too, because well, if he was like a father to her, I would think I would have seen more of that kind of relationship as I have seen in the last two seasons. Maybe her calling him just for the sake of letting him know how she is doing. I haven't seen anyone claim they wouldn't believe Rory if she would state that Luke did nice things for her and that was appreciated by her and even important to her. That is to me very different than stating he was like a father to her.

Well we haven't seen Lorelai be much a part of her life in the last two seasons either - actually since she's been at Yale. I think what we will hear about is Rory's life as a younger child, and how Luke was always there for her and her mother.

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And about a sinister agenda. It depends on whatever POV you have I guess. I can easily say also, someone is having a sinister agenda when a poster makes one character to be a saint at the cost of the way another character has been portrayed (in this case Rory), of course this is subjective also. Again this is what I see happening and I am getting the impression some others are thinking this also ... I personally find the use of the word sinister a little too strong though ...

I can't see how that would take anything away from Rory. Chris, maybe. But as far as I'm concerned, a young person can't have enough positive adult role models in their life.

And I've seen plenty of what I percieve as sinister posts discrediting Luke. Which I actually think has nothing to do with Luke at all.

peachypeep · 01-05-2007, 02:03 PM

I don't think I've ever actually seen a poster state categorically that Luke was a "father figure" to Rory. Certainly none of the regulars. OTH, several people are willing and eager to cast Richard in that role, and I don't see it. He is a wonderful grandfather to her, and they have a sweet and IMO charming relationship, but he is a grandfather, and there is a certain dignified distance between them. And, according to Amy herself, Rory going to her grandparents after her fight with her mom was intended as a big **** you to Lorelai as much as anything else.

Sooner or later the issue of what it means to be a parent had to come up. Amy set the stage herself in WBB with Lorelai looking at Chris and Luke as one states "Rory is my daughter. Mine" and the other asks"well then, where the hell were you?"

caf123 · 01-05-2007, 02:04 PM

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Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

Seperately, I feel you are adding all these things together as one thing, I read the point being made that this is a letter written from Lorelais POV. We still have to wait and see what Rory does say in ep 11 and how this will be represented in the letter. Other from what Rory tells Lorelai herself is yeah just Lorelais experience and how she thinks Rory feels about Luke.

I highly doubt the show intends us to see this from just Lorelai's PoV. If the judge reads it - well, as posters have pointed out, it's legal so Lorelai would tend to be honest.

And there's precedent, in the overly honest deposition Lorelai gave when Emily's maid sued for wrongful dismissal.

Only Rory can say how significant Luke is or isn't in her life these days - but as someone said upthread, most mothers generally have a pretty good handle on who matters in their kid's life while that kid is growing up.

It hardly canonizes Luke to say he was important to Rory growing up; ASP already told us that in WBB. But this is getting boring - I mean, if some posters don't want to believe it, or want to attribute it to Lorelai's ulterior motives or whatever, so be it.

Lorelai's wrestling with, remembering, then writing the letter is clearly intended to have an impact on her - likely paving the way for her 'epiphany'. But I seriously doubt the writers ever imagined that viewers would actually question the contents of that letter. Heh.

MickeyJr3000 · 01-05-2007, 02:09 PM

You know, the issues of what's legitimate in that letter reminds me...

What the heck could Lorelai have said in that letter, exactly a year ago, to encourage Rory to give Logan a second chance?

Oh, and ain't it a coinky-dink that Lorelai writes and sends letters in 6.12 and 7.12, respectively?

blaab · 01-05-2007, 02:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

Well we haven't seen Lorelai be much a part of her life in the last two seasons either - actually since she's been at Yale. I think what we will hear about is Rory's life as a younger child, and how Luke was always there for her and her mother.

If she felt he was like a father to her, I would assume (yeah yeah, I know

), she would feel more strongly about maintaining a relationship with him. Also now that she is older ... I guess that was the point I was trying to make with that remark. I am not saying that Luke is not important to her or was important to her and was there when Rory was younger. I was merely making that point against the idea of Luke being a father(-figure) to her ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

I can't see how that would take anything away from Rory. Chris, maybe. But as far as I'm concerned, a young person can't have enough positive adult role models in their life.

That to me has actually nothing to do with Chris. I am talking about the idea that I am getting that certain feelings are pushed on Rory by some posters to make Luke more saint-like, the father-figure. That's what I meant with at the cost of Rory and the way she has been portrayed.

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Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

And I've seen plenty of what I percieve as sinister posts discrediting Luke. Which I actually think has nothing to do with Luke at all.

Well, it is your perception and of course the way you see it. Nothing I can say about that, only that I feel posters also posting about the not so fantastic characteristics of Luke are not sinister (those posts) to me.

Caf, any courtroom or judge would only view this as Lorelais POV, since this letter is not written by Rory. Sure Lorelai might incorporate some of what Rory said to her about Luke, but it would still be Lorelai intepreting Rory and therefor will be only seen as Lorelais POV I would think. But again I am not thinking at all Lorelai will write Luke was a father-figure to Rory. I am thinking she will write about some qualities Luke has and that he has also shown to Rory. Rory will say something about this in ep 11 or was it 12, well whatever ... Qualities that would make the judge believe Luke is a good guy and deserves the right to be there as a father to April. Because well, that is what this is all about really ...

ETA I have entered this subject kind of late and well yeah I am out now!

carolav · 01-05-2007, 02:20 PM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart (View Post)

Conversely, I don't see Logan taking Luke's money. Even if Luke wanted to pay for it. He gave it to Luke as a gift, not as something he was selling Luke. The only way Luke might have had to pay for it at that time was a check. Do you see Logan cashing it or ripping it up? I'd say ripping it up, which would mean Logan still was the person that paid for the necklace, no matter Luke's intent.

I agree.

I am almost sure about two things..

1) Luke doesn't know the real value of the gift.
2) Logan wouldn't accept his money in the case that Luke'd offer to pay.

I can't believe How Luke could ask Lorelai if 'she liked it', when she was seeing the necklace totally "in love" with it, while he was knowing that it wasn't from him... He lied her.

lancer1993 · 01-05-2007, 02:21 PM

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Originally Posted by lilmelodie (View Post)

I agree. This whole conversation is making me a little nuts. I mean, really, if people want to think that Luke is Rory's dad or whatever, fine. Some people like to ship Luke and Rory. To each his own. I have a feeling this discussion will seem pretty silly after we watch 7.11 and hear what they have to say.

I agree with this, that is why I'm not even gonna spec as to the content of the letter.

ETA - why are we spec'ing on stuff that happened last season and has nothing to do with the current SL, someone point out to me (I may be slow) how AVV has anything to do wit the current SL?

damselfly · 01-05-2007, 02:24 PM

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Originally Posted by lemon tart

If the judge had no agenda then Rory's percieved background never would have come up.

I don't see refusing to be swayed by power or money as an agenda, but I do believe the judge was firm in her resolution that being rich and privileged gets you nothing in her court. I don't believe Rory was singled out to be made an example of, or that she was treated any differently from every other defendant appearing before that particular judge. The Gilmores are well-known around the area, so yes, it's likely the judge would know who the family was, and maybe moved in some of the same circles. The judge didn't come out swinging though, it was after Rory's buffoon lawyer tried to laugh things off that the judge let it be known she couldn't be influenced, and then passed sentence accordingly.

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She made her statements, and her sentence, because of who she thought Rory was.

Then that's where we disagree. She made her statements because of who she thought Rory was, yes, the sentencing no. I believe Rory got the same sentence as anyone else would've received -- that the judge was saying social status wasn't going to buy her a reduced sentence.

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Would she have made those same statements to someone she knew had Rory's background? No.

You mean someone who wasn't rich or privileged? Of course not, there'd be no reason to. Obviously, though, it wasn't the first time some high priced lawyer had played games with that judge -- maybe even that same inept one -- and she let it be known she wouldn't tolerate it in her court. I find that more admirable than giving some rich kid a free pass, just because daddy is rich and influential.

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Conversely, I don't see Logan taking Luke's money. Even if Luke wanted to pay for it. He gave it to Luke as a gift, not as something he was selling Luke. The only way Luke might have had to pay for it at that time was a check. Do you see Logan cashing it or ripping it up? I'd say ripping it up, which would mean Logan still was the person that paid for the necklace, no matter Luke's intent.

And I don't see Luke going along with that. He'd insist that Logan take payment for it, and he'd find a way to make sure he did. If Logan tried to refuse payment at the time, Luke would've refused to take the gift, and I believe if Luke insisted on paying for it, Logan would respect that and take his money.

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Originally Posted by Lancer

ETA - why are we spec'ing on stuff that happened last season and has nothing to do with the current SL, someone point out to me (I may be slow) how AVV has anything to do wit the current SL?

It ties in to talking about character.

lorelaisgirl · 01-05-2007, 02:34 PM

Podcast is up.
Gilmore stuff starts after 22 minutes.

catkirk7 · 01-05-2007, 02:38 PM

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Originally Posted by damselfly

And I don't see Luke going along with that. He'd insist that Logan take payment for it, and he'd find a way to make sure he did. If Logan tried to refuse payment at the time, Luke would've refused to take the gift, and I believe if Luke insisted on paying for it, Logan would respect that and take his money.

But I though Luke was the poor dirty diner guy? How is he affording that necklace that I guarantee was VERY expensive. I agree with Carolav that I doubt Luke knew the value of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by damselfly

Then that's where we disagree. She made her statements because of who she thought Rory was, yes, the sentencing no. I believe Rory got the same sentence as anyone else would've received -- that the judge was saying social status wasn't going to buy her a reduced sentence.

Rory was a good student with a completely clear record. The judge was making an example of her. Had Lorelai gone with the original plan and got a lawyer without going to the grandparents it would have been clear what Rory's true background was and she likely wouldn't have gotten the same sentence with that judge. This not be blaming Lorelai except for her attempts to manipulate Rory. Just pointing out that a working to middle class person with Rory's record and credentials would not have gotten the same sentence (from that judge).