Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #113 ~ Chris & Luke? Nah, More Like Spike & Angel. - Page 13

blaab · 12-06-2006, 01:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post)

I think that's the point of TGS: Luke allegedly shut Lorelai out, Chris was 100% different. Luke decided when Lorelai could see April, Chris followed Lorelai's advice regarding Georgia. Chris is being shown as the oppposite of Luke, yet NEITHER one worked out for Lorelai. It's not Luke. It's not Lorelai. It's Lorelai.

Nahhh, can't go along with that. Luke definitely made mistakes based on Issues he has had along when it came to April arriving in his life. I understand why he did what he did, I don't blame the guy. But Luke also has his own Issues ...

Chris, same thing ... some Issues are coming to the surface. These Issues have been talked about enough

The fact that Chris did open up to Lorelai about Sherry (letter) and Gigi ... I think made him more attractive in Lorelais eyes, because that was so opposite of what she so painfully experienced with Luke when it came to April. That doesn't mean that Chris is being an Issueless husband or that Luke was a great fiancee. All three have their own individual Issues.

I again do agree that no matter who the guy is, Lorelai needs to change some ways to have a succesfull relationship. And yeah I can seperate that from whether it's Luke or Chris. But I believe the same applies to both Chris and Luke individually ...

carolav · 12-06-2006, 01:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post)

Until she gets those fixed she will be, as Emiliy says, alone. It's not Chris's money, or being an outsider, or Luke being a better father (despite HIS lawyer suggesting anger management BEFORE Luke gets into a fight) it's about Lorelai not working, not compromising, but always needing to win (even with Rory--she'll do a character reference for Luke, but not her own kid) that breaks things up. And will prevent Lorelai from reconciling with Luke

Wonderful post Captain!
Lorelai is as inmature about relationships as a teenager could be, I think that maybe she had to grow up too fast being responsible for other person's (Rory) life but she left her own personal life in stand by... She is not ready to compromising, she just wants what she wants. I never though that she was convinced at all about having kids with Luke (whatever she said at that time). She had a Dollhouse when she was a child, she played dolls with Rory for a while, in a little dolls town (SH) in her own "big" dollhouse, I always have though that Lorelai was going to end the show alone, living things that hse should live but she couldn´t because she was pregnant whne she was sixteen. Her "journey" couldn´t finnish in the next 12 episodes... maybe if we would get a season 8 Lorelai could grow up enough to share his life with a man, maybe Luke if he has taken his anger management classes.

ckomodo · 12-06-2006, 01:23 PM

Pimbolina and others, was I the only person who watched the show were Emily and Richard devestated Lorelai by blaming her for the fact that Sherry was pregnant and Chris dumped her? Or the show when Chris's father said horrible things about Lorelai and when she went to thank her father for standing up for her he blasted her and, again, blamed her? I'm even more thankful than usual that I had the parents I did because some people's idea of what makes a good parent suprises the heck out of me. Is the expression "unconditional love" one other people are familar with? If your mom and dad don't love you and accept you no matter what who the heck will? A 16 year old doesn't take a small baby and go clean rooms and make beds unless they feel they really need to. E&R arn't monsters, they are who they are, but they blew it with Lorelai when she was 16 and they still can't accept her unconditionaly now. The problem isn't that Emily never gave Lorelia advise before, it's that she's done nothing much but give Lorelai advise, from how she decorats her living room to when she cuts her hair. The party is a perfect example, its supposed to be for L&C, Lorelai was invited to part of the planning process, however HER BEING ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO VOICE AN OPINION AND ASK FOR THINGS TO BE HOW SHE WOULD LIKE THEM IS MADE FUN OF AND CRITICISED. Emily is a selfish and self-centered woman (she is also a great character for the show) and although Lorelai can be snarky to her and avoid her, whenever her parents have needed she has given them 100% without any grudge. Speaking both as both a daughter and a mother, trust me, Emily is no mother of the year.

elduccia · 12-06-2006, 01:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post)

Didn't he try to serve her decaf once without telling her?

In the dream sequence. Lorelai was dreaming of expecting Luke's babies and she also dreamt that Luke had switched her coffee trying to give her decaf.

Riska · 12-06-2006, 01:24 PM

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Originally Posted by ckomodo (View Post)

So how come Lorelai is always the one who has to grow up and change? You could write a book about how Emily could be a better person - her treatment of maids, her treatment of Lorelai (Emily gives one motherly piece of advise and all the put downs and criticism are forgotten?) - her treatment of other people in general (booting people out of the room she wanted for her re-wedding to Richard etc etc etc) - her snobbishness and I could go on for some time. Richard has been shown to be ruthless in business on more then one occasion. Christopher has basically done nothing but please himself all his life. So Lorelai is ciriticised for strongly defending the life and lifestyle she adopted because she had so little support? I always thought that it was the lack of support from her parents and Rory's father that made her what she is, and I don't think those that weren't there for her have a right to expect her to suddenly drop all her defenses and do it all their way. When have Richard and Emily compromised to please her? When has Christopher moved, changed his eating habits or changed his life to have children with her? When it worked with Luke it worked because he showed he was willing to be on her side and willing to take her wants into consideration. Mr Cereal Natzi hasn't earned the right to dictate Lorelai's life yet.

First: I think no one expects that Lorelai changes her lifestyle, it's simply about her way to act and react in relationships. And you simply have to do compromises, if you want a relationship to work. No matter, if your names Lorelai or Rory or Emily or Luke or Chris or Logan or Richard or *insert any other name in here*.

Second: Lorelai did not want support. She ran away from her parents. She ran away from Chris. It was her very own desicion to raise Rory without their support. Without theirs. Because, she had support. Mia and the townies supported her.

Third: Although Richard and Emily are having a hard time with compromises as well and they always will think that their way to live is the best way, they try to get the relationship with Lorelai on a better base - well, actually it'a Emily, Richard seems a little denial about it from time to time - while Lorelai sometimes just gives me the impression that she doesn't care. And while Emily still has to grow more onto Lorelai's way to live, she already made some huge steps during the past Seasons. Like the magazine affair, she accepted that Lorelai was going to marry Luke, etc. I think in Season 1 she never would've, she would've made a drama out of these two examples, annoyed Lorelai to death, but now she's at a point were she learned to accept that Lorelai makes desicions of her own and that she's no real influence on them. She accepts them, because she knows by now that the things that make her happy aren't the things that make Lorelai happy.

Fourth: Chris doesn't try to dictate Lorelai what to do. And although I perfectly understand why Lorelai wouldn't leave SH or why she doesn't want to make a baby just a month aftershe got married, well, I understand his POV as well.

ETA:

Quote:

Pimbolina and others, was I the only person who watched the show were Emily and Richard devestated Lorelai by blaming her for the fact that Sherry was pregnant and Chris dumped her? Or the show when Chris's father said horrible things about Lorelai and when she went to thank her father for standing up for her he blasted her and, again, blamed her? I'm even more thankful than usual that I had the parents I did because some people's idea of what makes a good parent suprises the heck out of me. Is the expression "unconditional love" one other people are familar with? If your mom and dad don't love you and accept you no matter what who the heck will? A 16 year old doesn't take a small baby and go clean rooms and make beds unless they feel they really need to. E&R arn't monsters, they are who they are, but they blew it with Lorelai when she was 16 and they still can't accept her unconditionaly now. The problem isn't that Emily never gave Lorelia advise before, it's that she's done nothing much but give Lorelai advise, from how she decorats her living room to when she cuts her hair. The party is a perfect example, its supposed to be for L&C, Lorelai was invited to part of the planning process, however HER BEING ACTUALLY ALLOWED TO VOICE AN OPINION AND ASK FOR THINGS TO BE HOW SHE WOULD LIKE THEM IS MADE FUN OF AND CRITICISED. Emily is a selfish and self-centered woman (she is also a great character for the show) and although Lorelai can be snarky to her and avoid her, whenever her parents have needed she has given them 100% without any grudge. Speaking both as both a daughter and a mother, trust me, Emily is no mother of the year.

Mother like daughter.

And sure Emily isn't the mother of the year. And she probably never will be. But then Lorelai doesn't make it easy for her.

Ciaobella · 12-06-2006, 01:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post)

The epiphany is gradual, remember.

Besides, between Richard's health crisis, Luke's custody battle, etc we're talking probably 7.16 before the process can start.

Actually the Epiphany gradually occurs during 7.13 - it's not one big AHA! moment, but a slow realization over the course of the episode.

bec99 · 12-06-2006, 01:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Captain Hawkeye (View Post)

Anyone notice:
1) Luke initially wanted to move Lorelai out of her house, but gave in. Same with Chris.
2) Luke has tried to get Lorelai to eat healthier. Same with Chris.
3) Luke moved some of his stuff into the CS, Lorelai objected. Chris proposed moving some of his stuff into the CS, Lorelai objected.
4) Lorelai gave Luke no say about his wedding. Now she is giving Chris no say about vow renewals.

And, of course everything Emily said about her marriage to Chris applies 100% to her engagement to Luke. My guess is that's the point.

I agree, although I think that the remodel of Lorelai's house was largely for Luke. (Just because Lorelai liked the solution doesn't mean it wasn't a compromise.) But your point is one which has confused me throughout about this storyline. The choice of relationship partner and the building of relationship skills have been conflated in a way that feels too ambitious for the show, for the character, for something... Certainly Lorelai needs to learn to communicate better and to compromise more. But is she going to understand that you compromise on tvs, not kids? That she objects to some things because it's Chris and other things because she won't let go? Does Lorelai actually drag out the relationship with Chris because she starts making progress on the relationship skills or does she not start skill-building until later? I don't know if I have an actual point... the convolutions in storytelling make me uncomfortable?

I do disagree about the ultimatum to Luke coming from Lorelai's need to win. Once Anna shut her down, she was trapped -- Luke was inside her defenses, but she felt lonely and rejected and so demanded the elopement. Proof of non-rejection not victory.

blaab · 12-06-2006, 01:35 PM

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Originally Posted by pimbolina (View Post)

Blaab, of course Lorelai is not the only one who is responsible for the fight with Emily, it always takes two, but it's in no way only Emily's fault. I'm not saying that you are saying that, I was only responding to ckomodo's posts.

About “big head wants dolly” – if Rory had been the one with a “big head”, Lorelai would have been the first one to point it out too. And I don’t think Emily was the one who really named her that, Lorelai probably made the whole story up. Yeah, we had the SL with Lorelai burning her pictures, but we also had the SL with Rory finding Lorelai’s picture album and viola we saw Lorelai as baby, why keep it, if she found it so horrible or burned all her pictures.

Richard mentioned a birthday party for Lorelai in the pool house with pizza and all, Lorelai running into his study with diploma and the famous dollhouse. So I don’t think Lorelai’s childhood was really as bad as Lorelai’s loves to point it out.

We saw Emily with Rory and Emily trying to integrate Rory into the planning for her birthday party, I guess Emily always wanted to include Lorelai as well, but Lorelai probably hated it all together and didn’t want to be a part of it at all, just behaving indifferently toward her mother and their lifestyle.

Lorelai was the one who cut Emily and Richard completely out of their life, always trying to separate her Stars Hollow life from her parents, she didn’t even give them a chance. She only came back, begging for money and Emily saw her only chance and used it invented FND. Otherwise they would only see each other for holidays. Lorelai also admitted as you pointed out, that if Lorelai would have gone to the x-mas party the first year she left, their relationship would have been a better one. But so we may never now. I can only hope that now with Richard getting ill and Lorelai’s marriage falling apart, Emily and Lorelai will indeed get closer and for a mother/daughter bond.

I still feel the message of that Big Head Dolly story was one about Lorelai not feeling accepted for who she was and receiving quite some critisism when she was young. I am not saying her childhood was horrible or that E&R were monsters. Sure, they threw her birthday parties and again I am sure they meant very well. I do feel that way. I love E&R ...

But again, I cannot deny that Lorelai experienced feeling very restricted. Again yes Lorelai took off and ended up in SH when she was 17/18. Many, also you, have stated that Lorelai should have been the bigger one when it came to the Rory rift her being the mother and all. And Rory was going through a hard time and all. And Lorelai shouldn´t have only given Rory the option to do it her way. Lorelai should have risen above her own personal issues with this and show her kid that she did still support her, no matter her choise and while living with her parents. And there we have Lorelai, 17-18 years old with a one year old baby. Parents can reach her to invite her to a Xmass party. But E&R never showed up at that place where they apparantly could reach Lorelai for the invite. Again I am not saying oh nasty Emily & Richard. But I do feel E&R did the same thing Lorelai did to Rory. Either Lorelai came home, but they were not going to Lorelai. They had never seen the Inn, they visited SH for the first time when Rory turned 16.

And if your kid runs away with a baby at that age, you can figure out that even though you did your best, the kid (Lorelai in this matter) was not feeling to greatly in that situation. She must have some reasons right? Why not go and figure out what those reasons are? Why, because just like Lorelai couldn't rise above her own feelings of rejection by Rory, so couldn't Emily and Richard by rejecting them ...

helpinhands · 12-06-2006, 01:36 PM

hey you guys see the NEW promo pictures yet? If not I will post them for Rebecca aka Curlyhead...let me know

pimbolina · 12-06-2006, 01:37 PM

Ckomodo, well, Lorelai would certainly not get a “daughter of the year” award from me either.

Have you watched the ep when it was mentioned that Lorelai always shut her parents completely out of her life? The moment things don’t go Lorelai’s way she blames her parents and takes it out on them. It were always her “evil” parents who were always soo bad to Lorelai. Luke and Rory where the only ones who made Lorelai see her parents side as well form time to time. That her parents have feelings too and were deeply hurt by some of Lorelai’s actions.

Emily didn’t push Lorelai away when she became pregnant or didn’t do the things Emily wanted Lorelai to do. She was not happy with it, but Lorelai had always a home to return to.

Lorelai on the other had pushed Rory away the moment Rory didn’t do the things she wanted her to do. Coming home was not an option.

blaab · 12-06-2006, 01:40 PM

Sandra, why did E&R never visit Lorelai in SH? Sure, Lorelai could come back home, but they wouldn't go along with Lorelais decision to built her own life in SH and show this by visiting her in SH. Lorelai learned this from Emily ... Rory didn't do what Lorelai wanted, so she did NOT visit her in E&R house by herself to show she still supported Rory even though she didn't agree with her decision, just like E&R couldn't deal with Lorelais decision and visit her in SH to at least show some support ...

Circumstances also mattered for Lorelai at that age ... she also did what she thought was right at that time. And she was still very young and yes, I totally feel E&R should have been the bigger ones in this matter. Just like Lorelai should have with Rory during the rift.

elduccia · 12-06-2006, 01:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Ciaobella (View Post)

Actually the Epiphany gradually occurs during 7.13 - it's not one big AHA! moment, but a slow realization over the course of the episode.

Which makes even more sense. And I think this epiphany comes from all the moments that we have already witnessed.
Actually, as much as I would like Lorelai and Luke to get back together sooner rather then later, I'd hate for them writers to make an ass out of Chris just to make things quicker.

L/C jumped into things a little too quickly. They cannot get out of it with a sudden epiphany. I personally found Luke's epiphany a tag stupid, but back then the show was in a much better shape, so I went along with that.

Cappuccino · 12-06-2006, 01:43 PM

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Originally Posted by micfall (View Post)

hey you guys see the NEW promo pictures yet? If not I will post them for Rebecca aka Curlyhead...let me know

New promo pics - wow. what can they be about ? Lor and Chris in wedding gowns because we once again won't see the wedding

Please post them. I haven't seen them yet.

damselfly · 12-06-2006, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by CaptainHawkeye

Didn't Chris ask about the big screen? (Not to mention the Billy Bass & Barcolounger)

Yes, although he was only serious about the flatscreen tv. I was talking about making changes to Rory's room without talking it over first.

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Didn't he try to serve her decaf once without telling her?

As Elduccia said -- in a dream, when she was pregnant with his twins. Dreams don't count. He also served her soup once when she was sick. However, Luke's never gone to the extent Chris did last night trying to control her eating habits and dictate what she can and can't have in her own pantry. "I told you, only one sugared cereal!". Puleeze. Chris treats her like a child -- but then she does revert back to one around him. I'm still looking for how Chris is good for her, as Emily said.

**Katiegg108** · 12-06-2006, 01:46 PM

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Originally Posted by micfall (View Post)

hey you guys see the NEW promo pictures yet? If not I will post them for Rebecca aka Curlyhead...let me know

no, we haven't... it would be great if you could post them.