Spoilers - Gilmore Girls S&S #113 ~ Chris & Luke? Nah, More Like Spike & Angel. - Page 12

pimbolina · 12-06-2006, 12:29 PM

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Originally Posted by ckomodo (View Post)

So how come Lorelai is always the one who has to grow up and change? You could write a book about how Emily could be a better person - her treatment of maids, her treatment of Lorelai (Emily gives one motherly piece of advise and all the put downs and criticism are forgotten?) - her treatment of other people in general (booting people out of the room she wanted for her re-wedding to Richard etc etc etc) - her snobbishness and I could go on for some time. Richard has been shown to be ruthless in business on more then one occasion. Christopher has basically done nothing but please himself all his life. So Lorelai is ciriticised for strongly defending the life and lifestyle she adopted because she had so little support? I always thought that it was the lack of support from her parents and Rory's father that made her what she is, and I don't think those that weren't there for her have a right to expect her to suddenly drop all her defenses and do it all their way. When have Richard and Emily compromised to please her? When has Christopher moved, changed his eating habits or changed his life to have children with her? When it worked with Luke it worked because he showed he was willing to be on her side and willing to take her wants into consideration. Mr Cereal Natzi hasn't earned the right to dictate Lorelai's life yet.

Huh, where is all the hate against Emily coming from?

Emily always wanted to give Lorelai advice, but I guess this is actually the first time that Lorelai was listening to it.

Emily and Richard would have been glad to support Lorelai with Rory, but Lorelai was the one who run away from them, Lorelai didn’t want them in her or Rory's life.

Emily would have been thrilled to have Lorelai and Rory in her life, the day Lorelai left with Rory must have been Emily’s darkest day.

Lorelai has always been self-absorbed, nothing new, she loved to fight and she loves to win a fight, Lorelai was never one to compromise willingly, not with parents, not with Rory, not with Luke and now not with Chris, she still has a lot to learn and she could learn a lot from Emily, if only she would be open minded about it. After all Emily is the one who shares a loving marriage with Richard for over forty years now. How long has Lorelai been married now and the better question should be, how long will her marriage last?

colorblind · 12-06-2006, 12:32 PM

as someone already said they're living in a past right now. when they're together you get 16 year old lorelai and chris. when the real problems occure they will fail. and now this showed me that LC would never last, not in season 1 or 2 and not now. marriage is big comitment, it's not just about love or living together, it's about making important decisions, and if you're changing for your partner to make it work then that's not real marriage.

Cappuccino · 12-06-2006, 12:34 PM

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Originally Posted by FuzzyCerts (View Post)

I think after 7.13 there will be a lot of new amazing nick names....

After 7.13 he doesn't need any anymore

lancer1993 · 12-06-2006, 12:36 PM

Sorry if this was posted already but I just watched the ep and have the last few pages to catch up here.

RATINGS
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And finally on The CW (households: 2.3/4, #5; adults 18-49: 1.5, #5), a new "Gilmore Girls" (households: 3.2/5, #13; adults 18-49: 2.2, #T11) and a repeat of "Veronica Mars" (households: 1.4/2, #14; adults 18-49: 0.9, #14) closed out the night.

Sandlynn · 12-06-2006, 12:38 PM

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I also got what Emily was saying but I still think she has to understand that Lorelai is not her and she still doesn't want to follow the dictates of Emily's world. Now don't get me wrong Emily's world works for her but I get the feeling she's had to work hard to keep that footing when at times I think she wishes she could be Lorelai and tell Richard to stuff it! She can't though, that's not how it's done, that's not how she was raised and I'm sure she expected Lorelai to follow suit

If Emily's world = marriage, then I agree Lorelai doesn't want to follow the "dictates" of "Emily's world".

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"A ring is no guarantee." Ring a bell?

Yeah, it sounds like Anna saying, engaged isn't married.

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It doesn't matter who Lorelai would marry and you are correct that Emily would have said the same thing

Actually, it also reminded me of the advice Emily gave Lorelai last season when she discovered that Lorelai wasn't getting to know April. She said something like, that girl's going to be in your life for the rest of your life, so you'd better get to know her. So, Emily was sounding like a sage in that instance as well as last night.

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Lucy absolutely needed to know the truth, but Rory was going to tell her. Logan should have trusted his girlfriend. It wasn't Logan's problem to fix.

They were making it Logan's problem by drawing him into the lie as well.

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I understand and respect he didn't want to be a part of something so silly, but he should have let Rory figure things out and explain things and not so bluntly state the truth like he did. The manner in which he told Lucy was uncalled for.

The initial lie was uncalled for, and in fact was entered into to hide the fact that Marty still has a thing for Rory and was drawing Rory into it making it appear that Rory had something to hide as well. NOW, Lucy's going to think that something went on between Rory and Marty and might still be.

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Thinking about this overnight - from Logan's perspective, he just found out that his long-distance gf has a secret that she kept from him regarding her and a guy that used to like her and apparantly still does. For one, what was there to hide that she couldn't tell Logan about this earlier?

Secondly, by Marty's over-attentiveness to Rory at the dinner, it was quite clear that he was not over Rory.

Throw in his nice trust fund comment and now tell me why Logan should keep up the pretense for Marty's sake? Because, really - neither Marty nor Rory were "protecting" Lucy from anything.

If it was all as innocent as it really was - Rory and Marty knew each other from back when and just fell out of touch - then what was the big secret for? Secrets usually mean that there IS something to tell. In this case, that Marty still likes Rory.

Seriously, that's what they were hiding *for* Marty, not to protect Lucy. Marty wants to have his cake and to eat it too. Have his girlfriend, but have Rory in his orbit with the possibility of hitting on her in the future.

Furthermore, the fact that Rory didn't even mention hanging with Marty to Logan made Logan wonder why she never mentioned it. In effect, she's keeping that she knew Marty from Lucy and that she's hanging with Marty from Logan, and it's making her uncomfortable and unhappy, but she won't do anything about it! And why is this all going on? Because it's convenient for Marty.

ckomodo · 12-06-2006, 12:38 PM

When I heard Emily my hope was that Lorelai would in fact apply it to her relationship with Luke and realize she didn't have to make him chose between her or April. However, wouldn't it have been nice, if Emily had instead gone to speak to Christopher and stood up for her daughter for once? Given the "not perfect" speach to him, asked him to consider that, rightly or wrongly, Lorela has always felt she had no support and can't be expected to allow someone else totally into her life overnight. Reminded him what he had to lose by being too demanding and rigid. No, as usual, Emily runs down to tell Lorelai to quit screwing up. Wouldn't it have been great to see Emily caution Christopher to make her daughter happy instead of the other way around? (You know, like mothers with normal human feelings for the daughters.)

lilmelodie · 12-06-2006, 12:43 PM

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Originally Posted by beautifullauren (View Post)

as someone already said they're living in a past right now. when they're together you get 16 year old lorelai and chris. when the real problems occure they will fail. and now this showed me that LC would never last, not in season 1 or 2 and not now. marriage is big comitment, it's not just about love or living together, it's about making important decisions, and if you're changing for your partner to make it work then that's not real marriage.

Big fat WORD to the bolded part.

pimbolina · 12-06-2006, 12:48 PM

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Originally Posted by ckomodo (View Post)

When I heard Emily my hope was that Lorelai would in fact apply it to her relationship with Luke and realize she didn't have to make him chose between her or April. However, wouldn't it have been nice, if Emily had instead gone to speak to Christopher and stood up for her daughter for once? Given the "not perfect" speach to him, asked him to consider that, rightly or wrongly, Lorela has always felt she had no support and can't be expected to allow someone else totally into her life overnight. Reminded him what he had to lose by being too demanding and rigid. No, as usual, Emily runs down to tell Lorelai to quit screwing up. Wouldn't it have been great to see Emily caution Christopher to make her daughter happy instead of the other way around? (You know, like mothers with normal human feelings for the daughters.)

Sorry, still don't get your point about Emily.

Emily knows that Chris it the weak one and Lorelai the strong one who holds all the strings in their marriage. So what use would it have been if Emily would have gone to Chris? It wouldn't have a changed a thing IMO.

Emily cares a lot about her daughter, so she went to Lorelai to offer "friendly" motherly advice. Lorelai's the one who has to change, not Chris, so Emily went to the only one who would be able to make a difference, Lorelai.

Lorelai was the one who often never cared about Emily’s feelings, not the other way around.

blaab · 12-06-2006, 12:57 PM

I don't have any hate for Emily Sandra, the opposite really. But again that doesn't mean I don't think that Lorelai never really felt accepted by her parents for who she truely was. Do I blame E&R for that. Nope, because I think they were doing what they thought was right, but that still can lead to a kid not feeling accepted. The fact she cut of her head in all her kids pictures I guess proves that point for me. The big head dolly story. I do believe Emily has been shown to be a woman who believes in a certain perfection, a perfection that also needs to be seen by the outside world, the status and all. If you don't fit in this picture, corrections will be aimed at you. Apparantly even about having a big head

But that said, I do feel Emily loves Lorelai a lot and wants what's best for her, but she on many occasions in the past gave me the idea that she was the one who decided what was best for the other. Same goes for Lorelai, I am not saying she is flawless in this relationship with her parents, not at all. But she is merely trying her best also. And I get when you have felt/experienced being restricted a lot and not getting the space to be who you are, you become overly sensitive to friendly advice from the parents who made you feel that way in the first place.

And like has been said so many times about Lorelai when it comes to Rory, how Lorelai should have been the bigger person because she is the mother. I do feel the same could be said about E&R. Lorelai didn't go to that first Xmass party that she was invited to after she took off to SH (she was 17/18 around that time). Apparantly they were capable of inviting her. Why not go over to her to spend some time? To let Lorelai know they do support her. Of course we still don't know how this all worked out precisely, but if you invite someone, you sure can reach out in another way also ... I am just not thinking that Lorelai popped out in this world with these Issues. They did not take her seriously I feel when she was growing up and made her feel she had to fit in and become what they wanted to get their approval, I do not have a lot of examples for that, I can name Big Head Dolly, I can name Lorelai mentioning the overdressy stiff party dresses she HAD to wear, I remember the Hadens and Gilmores discussing Lorelais and Christopher future without consulting the people whose lifes they were discussing.

I love Emily, but she is definitely also part of this messy relationship with Lorelai, just like Lorelai also is part of this. I do agree that Lorelai FELT she had to deal with this alone, because not doing it alone, meant for her it felt her life was being dictated.

In the end it's all about how people have experienced things and not neccesarily about who was wrong or right. I am sure Emily tried the best she could, but still Lorelai felt very restricted and unaccepted. And at the same time, and I guess that's why I love the Lorelai/Emily relationship so much, it is so clear to me these two love each other a lot ...

ETA Sandra, even though I agree Lorelai does need to change to make any relationship work, I do feel Chris needs that also. I do feel he defines his self-worth by money and I do feel he was sulking after the baby-talk. I believe Lorelai had every right to say she didn't want a baby right now and mentioning Gigi seemed like the right thing to do ... but that said, I liked what Emily said to her and it felt really appropiate to me she would address her daughter with this and not her son in law.

jalapeno_wildchild · 12-06-2006, 01:03 PM

not much to add, great thread Gen

elduccia · 12-06-2006, 01:06 PM

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Originally Posted by blaab (View Post)

ETA Sandra, even though I agree Lorelai does need to change to make any relationship work, I do feel Chris needs that also. I do feel he defines his self-worth by money and I do feel he was sulking after the baby-talk. I believe Lorelai had every right to say she didn't want a baby right now and mentioning Gigi seemed like the right thing to do ...

Captain Hawkeye · 12-06-2006, 01:09 PM

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Originally Posted by lilmelodie (View Post)

I agree. I loved everything Emily said because it is so true. For any relationship.

S8, Captain? So she won't learn that this season?

The epiphany is gradual, remember.

Besides, between Richard's health crisis, Luke's custody battle, etc we're talking probably 7.16 before the process can start.

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As for moving stuff in, it was as much the not asking that Lorelai objected to as the not being willing to concede. At least with Luke, they were already redoing the bedroom and needed new furniture, but with Chris, he just decided on his own to make the changes.

Didn't Chris ask about the big screen? (Not to mention the Billy Bass & Barcolounger)

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Although I have to say, Luke might've grumbled about her eating habits, but he was never so controlling that he put her poptarts back on the shelf or told her she couldn't buy whatever cereal she wanted.

Didn't he try to serve her decaf once without telling her?

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But I am sort of reading this that IF Lorelai only would know and do better she wouldn't have issues before with Luke and now with Chris. And I guess I am not willing to go that far. I agree Lorelai has individual issues, that are seperate from Luke or Chris. But say Lorelai would have been different and would know and do already like I am sure she will learn soon, it still wouldn't have worked out with luke, IF Luke himself would not also have dealt with his individual Issues.

I think that's the point of TGS: Luke allegedly shut Lorelai out, Chris was 100% different. Luke decided when Lorelai could see April, Chris followed Lorelai's advice regarding Georgia. Chris is being shown as the oppposite of Luke, yet NEITHER one worked out for Lorelai. It's not Luke. It's not Chris. It's Lorelai.

pimbolina · 12-06-2006, 01:13 PM

Blaab, of course Lorelai is not the only one who is responsible for the fight with Emily, it always takes two, but it's in no way only Emily's fault. I'm not saying that you are saying that, I was only responding to ckomodo's posts.

About “big head wants dolly” – if Rory had been the one with a “big head”, Lorelai would have been the first one to point it out too. And I don’t think Emily was the one who really named her that, Lorelai probably made the whole story up. Yeah, we had the SL with Lorelai burning her pictures, but we also had the SL with Rory finding Lorelai’s picture album and viola we saw Lorelai as baby, why keep it, if she found it so horrible or burned all her pictures.

Richard mentioned a birthday party for Lorelai in the pool house with pizza and all, Lorelai running into his study with his diploma and the famous dollhouse. So I don’t think Lorelai’s childhood was really as bad as Lorelai’s loves to point it out.

We saw Emily with Rory and Emily trying to integrate Rory into the planning for her birthday party, I guess Emily always wanted to include Lorelai as well, but Lorelai probably hated it all together and didn’t want to be a part of it at all, just behaving indifferently toward her mother and their lifestyle.

Lorelai was the one who cut Emily and Richard completely out of their life, always trying to separate her Stars Hollow life from her parents, she didn’t even give them a chance. She only came back, begging for money and Emily saw her only chance and used it invented FND. Otherwise they would only see each other for holidays. Lorelai also admitted as you pointed out, that if Lorelai would have gone to the x-mas party the first year she left, their relationship would have been a better one. But so we may never now. I can only hope that now with Richard getting ill and Lorelai’s marriage falling apart, Emily and Lorelai will indeed get closer and form a better mother/daughter bond.

ETA:
Oh, I can’t say how much I love the fact that Lorelai said “no” to another baby with Chris, but wanted kids with Luke right away, like she said way back in season 3, I guess, with the right man she wants more kids, as she mentioned in the ep with dance contest while talking with Luke.

I also think Chris is behaving like a “big baby”, but Emily went to Chris, I don’t think he would have taken in her advice at all, rather started sulking all over again, pointing out to her that Lorelai is the one who has to change. Not him.

So that’s plays right into the coming SL with Chris sulking after a fight with Lorelai, while Luke helps Emily.

Emily made the right decision to give her advice to Lorelai and not Chris.

colorblind · 12-06-2006, 01:17 PM

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I love Emily, but she is definitely also part of this messy relationship with Lorelai, just like Lorelai also is part of this. I do agree that Lorelai FELT she had to deal with this alone, because not doing it alone, meant for her it felt her life was being dictated.

lorelai never took advice from anyone, or doesn't want to. everything she has in life is her own work, she made every decision alone. and she did a great job with her life. with rory especailly. she's independet, strong woman. but on the other hand sometimes you have to take advice. emily seems very jungemental to lorelai, but she just wants what's best for her. lorelai never saw that.
as much as it seems that lorelai can't do anything without chris this season, she still doesn't want to take other people advice. maybe after emily thing from last epi that will change.

apparition · 12-06-2006, 01:19 PM

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Originally Posted by ckomodo (View Post)

When I heard Emily my hope was that Lorelai would in fact apply it to her relationship with Luke and realize she didn't have to make him chose between her or April.

When I heard this speech I just had to smile. Despite the true advice she gave to L - which in fact said a lot about her own marriage - she really wants CL to work out. After all they´ve been through no matter what might be the true reasons for LL split up - it has to be Chris. He´s weak and she still doesn´t think much of him - but he has good breeding. Just a typical Emily scene, because it would´ve never occur to her to support Lorelai in relationship she was obvisouly happy - for the only reason that he has the wrong family background.
So I think in 7.13 we´ll get to see more than one ephany.

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Originally Posted by ckomodo (View Post)

However, wouldn't it have been nice, if Emily had instead gone to speak to Christopher and stood up for her daughter for once? Given the "not perfect" speach to him, asked him to consider that, rightly or wrongly, Lorela has always felt she had no support and can't be expected to allow someone else totally into her life overnight. Reminded him what he had to lose by being too demanding and rigid. No, as usual, Emily runs down to tell Lorelai to quit screwing up. Wouldn't it have been great to see Emily caution Christopher to make her daughter happy instead of the other way around? (You know, like mothers with normal human feelings for the daughters.)

But even if it´s her daughter she wants to make this marriage work. And she is one of Lorelais biggest critic - probably the biggest one. She wants Lorelai to be happy - she wants Lorelai in a suitable relationship. And sometimes you have to subordinate your own needs - sometimes even if you don´t like it, sometimes even if they define who you are. Emily analyzes Lorelai´s previous mistakes in relationships precisely - but I don´t it has anything to do with standing up for her. Because in Emilys way she did stand up with that speech - by telling L what to do to make it work.
But no matter how well intended this advice might seem - the sole message of it was: Don´t screw up this marriage your father and I have waited for so long.