lianamed

And I don't get it! Even on Earth-2 he was the one person who could get Earth-2 Killer Frost to help them. She was terrified of Zoom, but she did help because Cisco got to Caitlin who was very much alive inside her. Their friendship has always been key to the show, and that's why it hurt to see her freezing Cisco's arms so much.

Am I really the only one who believes Savitar would never willingly kill Iris because he *is* a version of Barry? I mean, there must be a reason why the writers kept that dialogue between Savitar and Killer Frost when she questioned him if he would be ready to kill Iris and then cut that scene when Iris touched Savitar's face. Maybe he never meant to kill her in the first place, and it was all about making them believe he did it. He only had to keep Iris alive somewhere, and everyone believing her to be dead.

Maybe the Iris who was buried in the original future was a time remnant disguised as Iris. It could have been either an Original Barry time remnant Savitar didn't kill, but who would willingly play that part so Iris could live, or a time remnant of Savitar himself.

After all. We are assuming Canadagraphs is right about being H.R. funeral, but what if it's a funeral for the time remnant who chose to die so Iris could live? Those spoilers pic show us both Savitar and Barry together NOT fighting and there has to be a reason for that. And how can Jay Garrick and Barry be on the funeral if there is no one else in that prison? What if Savitar went to that prison willingly so that Jay would be free and Barry could attend that funeral, and Barry promised him he would return and Savitar would be free?

I don't know. We are talking about Barry here, and Savitar is Barry, in a way. A twisted Barry, for sure, but still Barry. He is a Barry that wants to become a god so that He wouldn't feel, which, ultimately means, he still does.

MyzButterfly

^^I actually don't think the scene with Iris touching Savitar's face was cut. I think we'll see it in the finale. *fingers crossed*

One of the finale stills has Savitar at Star Labs with the same lighting and clothes as when she touches his face. I thought Savitar was affected when KF brought up Barry and Iris' history. I'm hoping we see that scene with Savitar and Iris because it could be really intense.

----

The CW Upfront is happening today as we got the new fall TV schedule for the network which includes The Flash Season 4! We also got a new synopsis for the fourth season which you can see below.

xx

BlondieLeigh

Julian's sticking around, then? I was wondering about that.

He's always been right before, there's a first time for everything, but chances are he is right. I want him to be wrong, though, because I love HR.

New thread time.

PhoenixRising

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I was also stating facts. The show has never really been able to fit Iris into the storyline as effectively as the other characters. The things you have mentioned are things that never actually happen on the show, but are only mentioned in the dialogue. Yes, you do have to actually show a couple growing closer over time and falling in love, like Arrow did with Olicity. Iris is never shown actually doing any reporting, and saying that she's shown working from home or "on her way there" doesn't count. It's also undeniable that Iris's only purpose at STAR Labs is to be a bystander. She's not really doing much of anything other than watching everyone else. The writers are the ones to blame for this for basing so much of the story structure around STAR Labs, where a reporter isn't going to have much to do. Also, Iris isn't the only voice that has given Barry assurance. Caitlin and Cisco were also there as his support system, and they were there for him a lot more than Iris was during season one. The rule of storytelling is that you can't just say it, you have to show it. Any screenwriting 101 student could tell you that Iris is poorly developed as a character. You can't just say that Iris is important, you have to have her do something, contribute something, or have a story arc that is relevant to the overall story. If I were a writer on The Flash, I'd be frustrated by constantly having to come up with storylines to keep Iris around or put her in as many scenes as possible that go against everything I was ever taught about writing. If you go through every single episode of The Flash you can see that the writers have never given Iris a real storyline or made her relevant to the show. I can quote multiple articles where critics have always singled out Iris as the weakest element of the show. This isn't even about fandom or shipping, it's about basic storytelling. We can agree to disagree, but you can't disagree with facts.

MyzButterfly

^^Actually, they showed it in S1 when Barry was in the tunnel and Iris just found out he was the Flash. She was still upset that he kept the secret from her, but it was Iris who centered him and gave him the strength and focus he needed at that very moment to push through. We'd never seen anyone do that for Flash but Iris. That's why they showed the flash in his eye and he said her name as he was listening to her. Words from her have a much different meaning than words from others on Team Flash, as it should because they're soulmates.

There is no character that is written in a well rounded way on the show other than Barry Allen. I can go through a list of flaws with each character, so I really don't get why it's Iris whose existence must be justified. We see her home life because that is a main support to...Barry. We don't see HR, Cisco nor Caitlin's home life as it's of no consequence to Barry. If anything, Iris is the most relevant person to Barry. There are many flaws with the show, but they've actually shown us how much she means to him. Do I think they can do a better job writing for each character? Yes. But the writing problem doesn't start and end with Iris West IMHO.

BlondieLeigh

Completely agree. The show has been pretty consistent with Iris and how important she is to Barry from the first episode. They've never stopped highlighting it. Imo, it's one of the few areas that there isn't much improving to do because they have left no room for doubt. She's been the most important person to him since the pilot, that isn't going to change, and as we've been shown, even if Iris did die, which she hasn't, it still wouldn't change.

hereforshorttime

all I get is a majority of people just want Grant off the show. I read stuff like oh the main star is going to be the villain now, sick of who's the villain now crap and if you live long enough you become the Villain. tired of I won't watch if so and so dies. just feel like Greg hired Grant cause he knew Grant would willing to do or try anything and no matter how good grant does with the **** stuff they have him do. the flash fandom makes it a joke. I don't know maybe he's not as good at acting as early on I don't watch show. I just read and see video. and to top it off people and they can't wait for the Ezra Miller Flash. I wanted a enjoyful lighthearted show like they said. done ranting.

PhoenixRising

You make a good point. I don't want Grant off the show, but I do agree that the show had overused the same plotlines way too much.

Oh, and as far as "canon" goes when it comes to CW couples, the most popular couple on CW right now is Betty and Jughead from Riverdale, and they were never a couple in the comics. Same with Olicity. Just saying...

scififan2009

New thread?

CouchCruisin'

You are quoting the facts as you see them.
We will all have a different interpretation of the show.
Anything mentioned in dialogue during the show absolutely did happen because it was in the script and it was said by the characters.
I don't watch Arrow so your comparisons between the two mean nothing to me.
We can call Iris a bystander. I have no problem with that because she is standing by Barry, her boyfriend/fiancé and she is still part of Team Flash.
I never said no one else on the team offers assurance to Barry because they have. It's just not as effective. By your own words, that is fact because we saw it.
The character of Iris may be poorly developed, but I feel the same about the others as well. There is a lot about all of them that we don't know yet and they could all be written better. I don't need to speak to screenwriters because I don't need anyone to coach me on how I should watch a fictional show.
I also don't need you to quote what critics may or may not have said because it doesn't matter. As long as I enjoy it I will watch it, flawed as it may be, until I don't enjoy it anymore.
Previous seasons are over and I don't need a refresher unless we get flashbacks. I remember well what happened and it wouldn't change my opinions anyway.
I never said anything about shipping Barry/Iris, but I do like them and that's good enough. When I read something I don't agree with, I like to discuss, but this seems to be turning into something different.
If you hate the show so much, why do you waste time watching? Or is it just Iris that you hate? That is a serious question. I'm not trying to bait you because I don't like to argue so answer if you will.
If not, been nice chatting but we still agree to disagree.

CouchCruisin'

I agree with this in its entirety, but most especially the part about Iris grounding/centering Barry. That's exactly the way I interpreted it.

PhoenixRising

I dislike Iris because I loved the show as it was back in season one, where the core of Barry, Caitlin, and Cisco were the heart and soul of the show. I keep hoping the show can be as good as it was back in season one, and I dislike Iris because she's the only character on the show that is superfluous and narratively serves no purpose.

Also, for the record, if something doesn't happen on screen, it doesn't exist. There's an old rule of screenwriting, you can't say it, you have to show it. Anything that's just mentioned in dialogue but not actually shown on screen is irrelevant, and not an example of good writing. The problem is that the creators of The Flash copied the format of the original Flash TV series from 1990 which centered around STAR Labs and the trio of Barry, Christina McGee, and Julio Mendez, and excluded Iris altogether, and then thought they could shoehorn Iris into that format, but over the course of three seasons they've never been able to make her work as a character. Iris is poorly developed, but much more so compared to the other characters as she's the only one who has no individual story arc of her own. It's not Barry who needs Iris, it's Iris who needs Barry. Without Barry, Iris really has no reason for being whatsoever. And Iris is part of team Flash in the same way that a Batboy is part of a baseball team. She's there in the sense that she occupies space at STAR Labs, but her contribution is limited to, "so what are we going to do?" and, "why would so and so go there?" and "come on, guys, we have to figure something out!" She's a cheerleader, but not an actual player on the field.

And I disagree that Caitlin and Cisco's assurance "hasn't been as effective" because we actually have seen it be effective. Again, go back and watch season one. That season is totally relevant because it set up everything afterwards. The only thing about Iris that makes her relevant, is again, the script merely saying she is, not showing that she is. Putting it simply, scenes of reassurance and bonding that happened between Barry and Caitlin or Barry and Cisco in season one were merely repeated in seasons two and three, just with Iris transplanted into them in place of Caitlin or Cisco. That doesn't make Iris indispensable. And again, Iris's storyline as a reporter is never a factor in the story. Iris is the only one who doesn't serve a purpose at STAR Labs. That's still undeniable fact. And as for Iris' relationship with Barry... if the crux of a relationship is backstory that the audience never gets to see, that's really lazy writing on the part of the writers who obviously didn't want to be bothered with actually writing a relationship storyline with progression and character development. That's my opinion, but it has a lot of weight. Simply put, if the writers actually had done Iris right, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and neither would anyone else across the internet, where Iris is perhaps the most divisive character on the CW shows.

CityGal