Spoilers - Daredevil Spoilers & Speculation #3: Because he can't mask that ass! - Page 4

scarletspuffyfan · 03-30-2016, 12:22 PM

i think Matt and Elektra would have been sleeping together if it weren't for the show trying to half-heartedly do the the M/K romance at the same time this season.

i also think if they have to go there with M/K, they should have pushed it to Season 3, and just full on done Matt and Elektra this season, because it was basically what was going on anyway. he told her twice he wanted them to be together as a couple, before something bad happened right afterwards. even while he was supposedly dating Karen he's telling Elektra he wants her to be with him, so clearly he was far more attached to Elektra.

McQueenFanGirl · 03-30-2016, 12:34 PM

I honestly don't get what was there with M/E to have people thinking there's no one else for Matt. But then again, this is where things get subjective. Maybe I was blinded by my interest in M/K, but I didn't see much there with M/E... and as a whole, I didn't enjoy the Elektra character. I do wish Matt & Karen didn't start this season because what followed was pretty bad and clumsy pacing.

And if we are talking about popularity, the strangest thing I've found is Frank & Karen are by far the most popular ship the show has going for it right now. This is just so wild to me, because I never saw them as a romantic pair.

SkyStillBlue · 03-30-2016, 12:46 PM

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Originally Posted by McQueenFanGirl (View Post)

I honestly don't get what was there with M/E to have people thinking there's no one else for Matt.

It was Matt, basically saying there's no-one else for him that did it.

drunkalice · 03-30-2016, 12:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Stelena&Bamon (View Post)

I don't agree with that. There wasn't any wouldn't even about it from Matthew's side. Elektra said no sex. She didn't attempt to suggest or propose it.

Everything that transpired between Matt and Elektra was complete intimacy, "love making" without the actual deed. They were with one another emotionally, close as they could possibly be physical. Sitting on his sofa in their underwear, counting scars. Him listening to her breathing and heartbeat till he fell asleep. Feeling like he was dead inside because she might be die, asking her to stay with him.

Nothing about Matt not having sex with Elektra which she already said was off the table had anything to do with Karen. He only called Karen his girlfriend, after Foggy suggested that Elektra was his. It was all about Elektra and him fighting against his love for her. Karen was an afterthought and did not factor into what he did or didn't do with Elektra.

Edit: This was totally the "we didn't have sex but we basically had sex" look.

I think them not having sex was even a greater testament to their love and nothing else. Like by showing through the flashback, yes, they had that passionate sexual connection with the infamous boxing ring scene so thumbs up to that. But like it coming back to in the present day was they are soulmate, knowing him better than anyone, her making him feel alive and him believing in her.

I don't think while they were IN the relationship it could be considered on hold. He was "seeing someone" as he claimed but the whole time he was obsessed with Elektra. After his date with Karen he didn't need to see Elektra she fired him. Even her meeting he didn't need to go to the rooftop or stand in the street having an intense sexual flashback. So he was in the throws of his budding romance but it wasn't what he wanted not really when given the option. On hold has to be nothing as started. You're boyfriend/girlfriend can't put you on pause while they go off with someone else.

The only indicators I see sadly, are what suits for Matt, nothing about what Karen needs. If we are supposed to be buying this "see she'll accept him" it's totally one sided and puts her in that love interest box who is only convenient because she can accept our brooding hero. "She won't cause trouble for her like X and Y, we're showing you how she'll fit what he needs. Look how submissive she's going to be." Whereas on Matt's side it's him and Elektra both actively trying to meet each other in the middle. It's more realistic and representative of love on a more dramatized scale. Matt is fighting for Elektra. Elektra is fighting for Matt and herself vs Karen is off proving on her own what an accepting suitable worthy love interest she will be.

I don't think that's the producers throat jumping is a reason either. If they cared that deeply Clairedevil would still have been happening. Matt/Karen building a relationship setting dating/boyfriend/girlfriend aside and then becoming official in S3 would actually be the definition of coming from somewhere. Especially given the gaps we have. Now the argument for S3 and throat jumping is "she's his default" which isn't a leap but actually true. Matt wanted to run away with Elektra if not for her death he would have. Even at her grave, loving her was worth it to him. He returns to Nelson and Murdock to fix the only things he's got left. But when faced with a choice: his choice is Elektra.

It was actually critic reviews/certified tweets I was reading who had issues with Karen. I wish I could find them. But it was when they Season 2 was released and I didn't agree so I didn't like (save them) on twitter...

Edit: found one. It was reporters/tv critics like this.

But yes I'm aware tumblr/twitter fans aren't her fans because of many reasons you're right some I won't get or I need to try understand.

. I really enjoyed Karen this season.

But I agree with Scorpio_Chick with their dislike for Matt/Karen is chemistry issues...

I have been in the Daredevil fandom from S1 and that was a lot of it. Feeling they fell flat and then introducing RD they just sizzled. Plus the weird Matt/Karen/Foggy thing they attempted for a second. It's like a general consensus, white fans included...

Same about it just being a preference. Nothing Matt has done in Season 1 when he was interested in Claire or in Season 2 when he was focused on Elektra indicates to me Karen is his choice, or that Matt/Karen are in any way the central love stories. I don't think the writers are even attempting to show that. It's not like a "woops" but a "this is how it is". I think Matt is trying to make the best out of a bad situation.

My OTP picking wrong as it may be starts chemistry durrr but with: "Does he/she love her/him? Does he/she deserve her/him?" There's a resounding NO to both answers for Matt/Karen. But we all have our preferences

I first liked Clairedevil and how Claire was a realist and rejected Matt and wasn't behind his lifestyle. I didn't think I would like Matt/Elektra. Then she said "Hello Matthew" and he just turned into....putty. This really human, REAL Matt Murdock came to life. He wasn't pretending, awkward or the smartest guy in the room anymore. He was real and vulnerable with someone and a person he had this deep history with.

Hey, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Elektra said no sex but she also kissed Matt. You can definitely think it's not important, I will still think it kind of is. Things are out there for all to see and make of it what they think they can. Maybe they'll have sex next season. I'm on team "they should have gotten together and seen where it went". I TOTALLY think they should get together. I'd be fine with Karen rejecting his ass.

I didn't say Matt put that relationship on hold, I said the writing has by having Matt essentially forget he was in a relationship in the first place. The whole point with Matt this season was that he wasn't able to juggle with his two lives and he decided to let go of his anchors (Claire's words). He liked Karen but he also didn't give her a real chance. Has she fallen harder than he did? Hell yes. Does that mean he didn't care? He realized she was gone and completely lost his **** (and hearing), Elektra had to help him find his other girlfriend. So I guess no. Does that mean whatever their relationship will be from now is necessarily ****? No. Not yet. We have yet to see how it goes. I don't understand how people keep saying that Karen will "settle", have we seen it yet? I'll believe it when I see it. I grant you I'll be here complaining about it.

Alright so you're showing me one critic saying there's a Karen problem and a bunch of other people more or less politely (the "me and the fridge" comment doesn't count as argumentative) saying they don't like her or MK. It's okay. I never said everyone who doesn't like Karen or MK plain simply hate them, so it really doesn't prove anything to me. I'm sorry, but what should I do now? Should I go and get all the tweets and reviews that like her/them? What's the point? I stand by my idea that a large part of this fandom hates Karen for reasons that are irrational, usually shippy and I can say that because I see it every day. It doesn't mean some civil persons can't possibly not love her.

About the real Matt Murdock, I don't believe the Matt Murdock that breaks and enters and smashes glasses is the real one. It's a liberated Matt, yes, it's a Matt Murdock that doesn't listen to the Ten Commandments and Law and Reason or anything else (the showrunners said that btw). He acts on his instict and he can because Elektra knows him, and Elektra knows him because she knows about Daredevil, but the whole point of Matt is that he's a catholic lawyer but also a vigilante, yet with Karen he was insisting he was just the catholic lawyer. Now that Karen knows I'd give her a chance. Like someone else said before me, these are two canon couples and it's a matter of what kind of relationship you dig more.
Btw I liked Claire and Matt too. I like Elektra but I'm not overly fond of ME. I'm very much in love with Matt and Karen, I believe they're soulmates and they don't know it yet. Like you said, it's a matter of preferences.

ETA: I'm also a Stelena and Bamon shipper, so we do meet halfway somewhere lol.

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i think Matt and Elektra would have been sleeping together if it weren't for the show trying to half-heartedly do the the M/K romance at the same time this season.

So that's it? Matt can say he wants to run away with her and felt hollow without her but the writers are too respectful of MK to have ME have sex? Or it is that they were too lazy to also insert a sex scene while they were at it? Nah, I don't buy it.

SkyStillBlue · 03-30-2016, 12:50 PM

I'm going off the show and what Matt says and does. It's Elektra. Karen was his last resort. Karen isn't my favorite so if her fans want that for her then bully for them.

As long as Matt, Foggy, Elektra and Frank are gravy so am I.

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

Hey, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Elektra said no sex but she also kissed Matt.

She kissed him after he was done with Karen. And he let her and closed his eyes.

Plus she never said no kissing. She said no sex

McQueenFanGirl · 03-30-2016, 01:00 PM

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Originally Posted by SkyStillBlue (View Post)

It was Matt, basically saying there's no-one else for him that did it.

Does that somehow determine the rest of his future? Is it possible that as a human being and given the ever-changing state of love, he will perhaps change his mind and feel that way (or even stronger) about someone else? Because that's the part where some people are losing me with the train of thought. Seriously, how is everything already somehow a fixed reality for characters who are still growing?

drunkalice · 03-30-2016, 01:00 PM

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Originally Posted by SkyStillBlue (View Post)

I'm going off the show and what Matt says and does. It's Elektra. Karen was his last resort. Karen isn't my favorite so if her fans want that for her then bully for them.

As long as Matt, Foggy, Elektra and Frank are gravy so am I.

She kissed him after he was done with Karen. And he let her and closed his eyes.

Plus she never said no kissing. She said no sex

He had long been done with Karen. And I see, he closed his eyes. How romantic. I'll still "go off the show" too and see that there wasn't all that urge. Than again, unlike you I'm not trying to dismiss the relationship by saying what I'm saying.

ETA:

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I'd happily still take him as Shang Chi.

Forgot to reply to this. Bring it please

is there any chance? Does he work in America at all? Speak the language? As far as Asians go I only know Japanese actors from my Nana phase.

SkyStillBlue · 03-30-2016, 01:20 PM

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Originally Posted by McQueenFanGirl (View Post)

Does that somehow determine the rest of his future?

Lol people are going off canon and narrative. That's all you can determine everything off not if and buts, candy and nuts

I literally go off what characters say and do until they say and do something different. I'm taking Matt for everything he's said and done. Simple as pie.

SkyStillBlue · 03-30-2016, 01:27 PM

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

He had long been done with Karen. And I see, he closed his eyes. How romantic. I'll still "go off the show" too and see that there wasn't all that urge. Than again, unlike you I'm not trying to dismiss the relationship by saying what I'm saying.

On the bold part we agree

I never said it was romantic, that's all you dude. I'm just saying what he did. "Unlike you...." is it that deep though?

Matt was dismissive of Karen, I take that as Matt was dismissive of Karen. He dismissed her not me.

Matt chose Elektra and wanted to run anywhere with her. I take that as Matt chose Elektra and wanted to run anywhere with her. Again Matt, not me. Simple.

If Matt declared his love for Foggy and wanted to become a clown. I'd take that as Matt loves Foggy and wants to be a clown. It really is that simple and not all that deep lol.

Stelena&Bamon · 03-30-2016, 01:31 PM

@drunkalice

I've never thought he doesn't care for Karen. He does, that's why the whole "Matt was an ass this season, damn his manpain" didn't ring true to me. And I still loved him all season. Because he does care for Karen and Foggy. He isn't an unfeeling ass. But he hasn't shown he loves Karen or she's his first choice. That's my point. Not when he wants to run away with Elektra and find sexy places to hide. Nothing the writers are telling me/showing suggest Karen is his true love or soulmate, just that she is a false escape/default. Could it change? Man, I hope she deserves better. But that's what I've seen from Seasons 1 and 2.

Yes, good point Elektra was the only one able to calm the noise for him with all their hand cupping because she's his soulmate imo. Elektra didn't even have an issue helping find Karen because she knows she came in while he was "dating" miserably. Unlike Karen who was threatened by Elektra with reason. Elektra is just like "you'll find her" because she knows what's up. She's his one and only lol.

The real Matt to me is just him being himself + Daredevil and without suiting up which I don't see with Karen. Maybe it will change in Season 3 but canon M/K for me is him lying, being defensive and awkward. Without Elektra I'd be Clairedevil or Team Avocados At Law because that's genuine to me.

By providing those tweets I was just showcasing it wasn't generally a race thing, because all those tweets are by white people. Even Karen fans ship F/K. As for Karen as a character tweet, I copied that because I made a statement about critics/reviews I read not being complementary of her and me not understanding why. I'm not saying critics dislike her just the ones I read didn't. And I was like, "I hate saying something with explaining where I got it from" is all.

I'm happy to hear other critics respond well to her because she deserves it, they wrote her very well this season.

Agree to disagree. Just different opinions. I knew you weren't trying to change my mind, neither was I trying to change yours. Just a discussion.

Musidora · 03-30-2016, 01:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Stelena&Bamon (View Post)

The same way they set up Claire/Matt only to have them biting the dust? But I'm not even going to compare Clairedevil to Karen/Foggy because Clairedevil actually had something, and it was lovely to watch. Foggy never stood a chance with Karen and his school boy crush on her, while cute, was completely one-sided and definitely just a crush. No wonder they dropped that storyline even before season 2 started. There was practically no set up there and I have no idea why people insist on beating that dead horse.

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Originally Posted by McQueenFanGirl (View Post)

And if we are talking about popularity, the strangest thing I've found is Frank & Karen are by far the most popular ship the show has going for it right now. This is just so wild to me, because I never saw them as a romantic pair.

I don't think they were ever meant to be romantic but it's one of those pairings that just has a life of their own. While both Matt/Elektra and Matt/Karen have major issues to work through, Karen and Frank are (ironically) the healthiest relationship the show presented us. It was honest, realistic and they were both completely true to themselves. The fact that Karen immediately told Frank she got the picture of his family by breaking into his house, and how he wanted to make sure she knew she was never in danger when he tried to kill Grotto just highlights how their relationship was built on trust from the very start.

The fact that Deborah and Jon have insane chemistry and look great together probably helps too.

drunkalice · 03-30-2016, 01:40 PM

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is it that deep though?

Yeah, it is actually. But you can also ignore that.

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Maybe it will change in Season 3 but canon M/K for me is him lying, being defensive and awkward.

See that's something else we agree on.

Of course it's been like that so far. I also happen to think they were cute af and really hot but that's where we disagree again

let's stick to "we don't have the scripts for S3".

SkyStillBlue · 03-30-2016, 01:55 PM

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Originally Posted by drunkalice (View Post)

Yeah, it is actually. But you can also ignore that.

Apparently. Since you were hype from the get go.

Ignore it? You mean the way Matt has Karen sure. I'll try. But narrative and canon it's impossible to ignore that well for me anyway.

Stelena&Bamon · 03-30-2016, 01:56 PM

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Originally Posted by SkyStillBlue (View Post)

Matt was dismissive of Karen, I take that as Matt was dismissive of Karen. He dismissed her not me.

Matt chose Elektra and wanted to run anywhere with her. I take that as Matt chose Elektra and wanted to run anywhere with her. Again Matt, not me. Simple.

Yeah that's my point. I feel he's dismissed her since Season 1. Season 1 it was her crush kinda like Foggy had a crush on Karen. Then Season 2 it was him playing her a little because I didn't like the whole can't play pool fakeout. Then after date number 1 he checked out.

And with Elektra raising for the dead it's just even harder to believe it will be any other way. But my question is whether she'll rise in the Defenders or whatever show is premiering before Daredevil.

SkyStillBlue · 03-30-2016, 02:03 PM

It's literally the summary of their relationship but to each their own.

Hmmmmm. If they do it before Daredevil S3 maybe we can avoid the whole Hand as the villains storyline. Then we get Bullseye as a villain or someone cool.

I think they'll want to do an episode of him going to get her and they destroy the Hand in one episode, because frankly I've seen enough of them.

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Fan Forum > General Discussion > Spoilers > Daredevil Spoilers & Speculation #3: Because he can't mask that ass!