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Old 03-13-2018, 11:45 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killer93 (View Post)
I'm not a shipper of anything, but the Frank/Karen elevator scene did felt like a goodbye to me.
How dare you. It very well could be. It's open for interpretation. That could be what they were trying to convey with that scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_chick (View Post)
I didn't think Matt/Karen were a viable pairing after DD season 2. And I definitely don't think they are after what happened in Defenders. Best to forget about the romantic element and focus on their friendship.
Yes, it wasn't the Defenders or the Punisher that made Matt and Karen roadkill. It was Daredevil itself. Season 2 spoke volumes but I wasn't that surprised given he never seemed that interested in Season 1 either.

An attempt at their relationship would be somewhat embarassing because Matt is still Matt. Karen's his default.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:46 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by semmanclana (View Post)
I found the way he treated his so called friends in S2 horrible. And I couldn’t stand him in defenders either.

And again we really can’t take what happened in defenders or Punisher as a sign of who is gonna be with who on DD. The fact that the actress has to remind the writers about Karen and Franks bond shows that they aren’t so much worried about the spinoffs
Not being able to stand him or thinking he was selfish or inconsiderate doesn't necessarily mean he needs redemption. It's not like he set out to hurt Foggy or Karen and they could always walk away at any time. Matt made it clear that being DD is a part of who he is and that isn't always going to align with what his friends want or even with what they or we think makes a good friend.

Different writers isn't going to change what we all saw. Of course they could pair whomever they like. Doing so isn't going to suddenly make a pairing viable, however. Matt would need more than "redemption" for Matt and Karen to work. The writers would have to do some serious retconning. I mean, the man didn't just choose Elektra over Foggy or Karen, he chose death with her over living. It'd be hard enough trying to sell any other romance after that but especially one with a woman whom Matt could have chosen but didn't...twice. I don't even like Karen but any kind of romantic reunion with Matt would be demeaning.
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Old 03-13-2018, 03:18 PM
  #288
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Old 03-25-2018, 08:14 PM
  #289
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Thanks for the tweet.
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Old 03-26-2018, 05:49 AM
  #290
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You're welcome.

Hopefully we'll get some official spoilers.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:43 PM
  #291
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Hopefully!
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:03 AM
  #292
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They tend to keep spoilers close to the vest.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:52 PM
  #293
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That's too bad.
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Old 05-02-2018, 07:40 AM
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_chick (View Post)
Not being able to stand him or thinking he was selfish or inconsiderate doesn't necessarily mean he needs redemption. It's not like he set out to hurt Foggy or Karen and they could always walk away at any time. Matt made it clear that being DD is a part of who he is and that isn't always going to align with what his friends want or even with what they or we think makes a good friend.

Different writers isn't going to change what we all saw. Of course they could pair whomever they like. Doing so isn't going to suddenly make a pairing viable, however. Matt would need more than "redemption" for Matt and Karen to work. The writers would have to do some serious retconning. I mean, the man didn't just choose Elektra over Foggy or Karen, he chose death with her over living. It'd be hard enough trying to sell any other romance after that but especially one with a woman whom Matt could have chosen but didn't...twice. I don't even like Karen but any kind of romantic reunion with Matt would be demeaning.

Marvel's anything is a girls thing in this family with my mother, my daughter, and I. And we all see things a little bit differently then what I think a lot of people see.

First being with his interactions with Foggy and Karen. When Foggy found out, he understandably was upset and angry. However he got over that, he really started to treat Matt like crap and kept trying to get him to stop doing it. Then he bailed on Matt probably when Matt needed him most because Elektra messes with his head. Matt didn't want to take the money from Elektra because he knew it was a Elektra just trying to worm is way back into his life. Foggy told him to take the money.

Karen didn't freak out (that we saw) after learning it, but clearly she took a giant step away from him after learning. That to me makes her a hypocrite, because he saved countless times and trumpeted DD's antics. Suddenly now Matt should just give it all up? For what? She clearly is saying she won't be with him while he is like this.....yet she expects total transparency from him while keeping secrets of her own: kill Fisk's right hand man, whatever happened in her past, and secretly keeping in contact and helping the Punisher who I might add tried to kill DD on a few occasions.

All relationships are a two way street. Both Karen and Foggy couldn't accept Matt once they say him as he really was, which not for nothing probably makes Matt regret telling them because it cost him the people he cares about most. It also probably drove him more to Elektra in DD in the end because he thinks he probably lost Foggy and Karen for good by chooses to put on the suit again.

I don't read it as he he chose Elektra over Foggy and Karen, and chose death with her over life with them. I think his relationship with Elektra is complicated and toxic, they enable each other and bring on the worst in each other. Elecktra knows how to manipulate Matt into doing things he doesn't want to do. I think he truly loved her yes, but I also think he knew he needed to walk away from her in the beginning of s2, but was put in a situation where he had no choice because she manipulated him.

When she died, his guilt is added to that because she died in his arms. Added to that the pressure from Foggy and Karen to hang up the suit and just be normal, when he is not; while they also are trying to maintain distance from him. I mean it's clear that in DD when Matt has drinks or coffee with either of them, its the first time he met either of them in a while. They act he is the one that back away but Foggy is the one that walked away from him and Karen is the one that clearly wants nothing to do with him if he puts on the suit.

I think when he made the decision to sacrifice himself down in the hole so the others could get out, it was partially because he loves Elektra yes, but a lot to do with his feelings guilty about her dying in the first place, and a lot to do with the fact that he probably felt he had no life to go back to. Foggy and Karen drew a line in the sand, they basically gave him an ultimatum. And he couldn't give them what they wanted.


Also from my understanding of the comic book arc they are basing s3 after, it is a huge retcon not just for Matt but for Karen as well. So we will see.
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Old 05-02-2018, 07:53 AM
  #295
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Quote:
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Foggy and Karen drew a line in the sand, they basically gave him an ultimatum. And he couldn't give them what they wanted.
Foggy gave him the suit in The Defenders. He had his support, a life and his city to return to.

I think it's easier to blame it on his Catholic guilt or Elektra's so called manipulation than to admit that's just who Matt is.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:31 AM
  #296
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Foggy gave him the suit in The Defenders. He had his support, a life and his city to return to.

I think it's easier to blame it on his Catholic guilt or Elektra's so called manipulation than to admit that's just who Matt is.

Yeah, he gave him the suit but he did and turned around and said 'I think we get matt back after this' the thing is, they never lost Matt.....they just found out who Matt really was and kind of rejected him


Matt catholic guilt is about of who he is, its ingrained in his character. And why is it easier to say that Elecktra manipulated him than to say its part of who he is? Matt loves Elecktra that is about of who he is. He also knows that Elecktra is toxic to him and the things that he wants for his life. He loves her, but he has known since they broke into that guys house and she set it up for him to beat the snot of him, that she was not a good person. He wanted to stay clear of her when she tried to worm back into his life. She knew how to play on his emotions, his weakness, and manipulate him into doing what she wanted and by extension what Stick wanted Matt to do.

Yes, Matt wants to fight, really its ingrained in him to do so. But he needs to do it on his own terms and pick his own battles. He wanted nothing to do with the fight with the hand until he was dragged in by Elecktra and Stick.

If the genders were switched and it was a guy doing this to a woman what Elecktra was doing to Matt, people would be crying that it is emotional and mental abuse. So by your line of thinking its like saying its not the abusers fault for abusing their victim, its just part of the victims character.

And from my understanding that was part of the plan with the Marvel Netflix series was to highlight the toxicity of the Elecktra/Matt dynamic and put it to bed, and have Matt move on from that.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:55 AM
  #297
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I just think Matt is Matt.
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:18 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyChaos (View Post)
Marvel's anything is a girls thing in this family with my mother, my daughter, and I. And we all see things a little bit differently then what I think a lot of people see.

First being with his interactions with Foggy and Karen. When Foggy found out, he understandably was upset and angry. However he got over that, he really started to treat Matt like crap and kept trying to get him to stop doing it. Then he bailed on Matt probably when Matt needed him most because Elektra messes with his head. Matt didn't want to take the money from Elektra because he knew it was a Elektra just trying to worm is way back into his life. Foggy told him to take the money.

Karen didn't freak out (that we saw) after learning it, but clearly she took a giant step away from him after learning. That to me makes her a hypocrite, because he saved countless times and trumpeted DD's antics. Suddenly now Matt should just give it all up? For what? She clearly is saying she won't be with him while he is like this.....yet she expects total transparency from him while keeping secrets of her own: kill Fisk's right hand man, whatever happened in her past, and secretly keeping in contact and helping the Punisher who I might add tried to kill DD on a few occasions.

All relationships are a two way street. Both Karen and Foggy couldn't accept Matt once they say him as he really was, which not for nothing probably makes Matt regret telling them because it cost him the people he cares about most. It also probably drove him more to Elektra in DD in the end because he thinks he probably lost Foggy and Karen for good by chooses to put on the suit again.

I don't read it as he he chose Elektra over Foggy and Karen, and chose death with her over life with them. I think his relationship with Elektra is complicated and toxic, they enable each other and bring on the worst in each other. Elecktra knows how to manipulate Matt into doing things he doesn't want to do. I think he truly loved her yes, but I also think he knew he needed to walk away from her in the beginning of s2, but was put in a situation where he had no choice because she manipulated him.

When she died, his guilt is added to that because she died in his arms. Added to that the pressure from Foggy and Karen to hang up the suit and just be normal, when he is not; while they also are trying to maintain distance from him. I mean it's clear that in DD when Matt has drinks or coffee with either of them, its the first time he met either of them in a while. They act he is the one that back away but Foggy is the one that walked away from him and Karen is the one that clearly wants nothing to do with him if he puts on the suit.

I think when he made the decision to sacrifice himself down in the hole so the others could get out, it was partially because he loves Elektra yes, but a lot to do with his feelings guilty about her dying in the first place, and a lot to do with the fact that he probably felt he had no life to go back to. Foggy and Karen drew a line in the sand, they basically gave him an ultimatum. And he couldn't give them what they wanted.


Also from my understanding of the comic book arc they are basing s3 after, it is a huge retcon not just for Matt but for Karen as well. So we will see.
They gave him an ultimatum?? Lol Nah. Matt let them know he is who he is and that wasn't going to change. Lets also remember back in S2 when Matt asked Elektra to be with him before Karen even knew about him being DD. It's easy to chalk it up to Elektra manipulating him but there was zero manipulation in him choosing her over everything else. He did so because he wanted to. Since Elektra showed up, the narrative has made it clear that while they don't have the healthiest relationship, there is an undeniable connection between then that no one else can compete with. He said himself that he feels most alive with her... that he felt hollow when he thought she died the first time. This is the narrative telling us why he would chose death with her over living. Anything else is either secondary or inconsequential, imo.
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:11 PM
  #299
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The idea Matt is being manipulated and in need of redemption feels like a misrepresentation of the facts. From the premise of the show Matt has been the "manipulator", lying to his friends, leading a double life and treating them exactly how he treated them in the Daredevil S2/Defenders S1. The only difference is he had less tact as the seasons went on and his secret was revealed.

Suggesting Matt has no choice due to so called manipulation is a disservice to Matt as a character and feels like a reach to vilify Elektra. Each step of the way Matt has had choice, made that choice and wad defiant to suggestions that he should chosen a different course of action.
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Old 07-08-2018, 06:41 PM
  #300
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I’m just curious what new game changer they’re going to be coming up with at the end of this season? Or if Danny will be showing up at all because of what Matt asked him to do?
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