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Old 05-15-2017, 06:59 AM
  #241
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Not bad at all
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Old 05-30-2017, 04:51 PM
  #242
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Well this looks promising! It seems that Dark Phoenix might actually follow the comics this time had have the Phoenix Force be a cosmic entity.

And I finally found a news story on Sophie that didn't involve her and Joe Jonas.

X-Men: Dark Phoenix could be taking the team into outer space
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:07 PM
  #243
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OHHHH that will make comic fanboys [fangirls] happy - hell not a comic person but I even felt that X3 failed Phoenix
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:13 PM
  #244
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That could definitely turn interesting. Shiar Empire?

For Sarah: The end of the Dark Phoenix Saga in the comics is a battle against the Imperial Guard of Shiar Empire. The Shiar are an alien species who evolved from something like birds to something like humans. Their leader, Lilandra, is Xavier's girlfriend, but this doesn't stop her putting Phoenix on trial for her life for destroying a star system. That's how Jean died. But later they retconned it that Phoenix wasn't really Jean but instead was a cosmic entity taking Jean's form and posing as her in the X-Men while Jean was left out in space in suspended animation. Jean later returned. The retcon took all the force out of he Dark Phoenix Saga, but it enabled them to bring Jean back to join X-Factor in 1986 with the other original X-Men, Scott, Hank, Bobby and Warren. The Dark Phoenix saga dates back to 1981. Oh and there was a hardback publised reprinting Jean's 1986 return. They called it "Phoenix Rising".
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Old 05-31-2017, 08:02 PM
  #245
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That sounds intriguing

Now is this movie just going to be a solo or are they making a saga out of it?
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Old 06-01-2017, 10:16 AM
  #246
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Well, they could make a saga out of it, but it requires the kind of storytelling that Hollywood doesn't have the imagination or the balls for.

Oh, and as I stated earlier, it was actually the Fantastic Four that found Jean. They were called in about a mysterious phenomenon in the Atlantic ocean involving a cocoon lying on the ocean floor that was creating havoc with naval operations and shipping lines(I think, I can't really remember). Reed, Sue, Johnny, and Ben were all called in and this thing was creating a tremendously disruptive force which turned out to be telekinetic in origin. There was also some kind of signal being transmitted from the rock, as if it were crying out for help(or to stay away) and ultimately Reed managed to stop the problem. The issue ended with a close-up of the cocoon and the image of a red-headed woman inside whispering, "Scott," before the issue ended. To be continued.

My jaw dropped to the floor. I was like, WTF??? Is that who I think it is? Yep, when the Navy pulled the cocoon to the surface and opened it, there was Jean. Reed and the others asked her what happened, and Jean told them about how the Phoenix Force came to her when the spacecraft she was piloting to allow the other X-Men to escape was about to crash into the ocean. The Phoenix Force needed an avatar on Earth, and Reed surmised that it made a doppelganger of Jean that copied Jean's memories and DNA perfectly and put Jean safely in a cocoon in the ocean. The Phoenix Force copied Jean so perfectly that her love for Scott was replicated in the doppelganger, which compelled the Phoenix-Jean to sacrifice itself rather than risk hurting or killing Scott. Meanwhile, the real Jean slept at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean until the Fantastic Four woke her up. This effectively retconned nearly a decade of X-Men history. And this was mostly due to Marvel wanted to reunite the original X-Men team(Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel) for their own new comic series, X-Factor, which was separate from X-Men. The X-Men at that time were off-planet and presumed dead. Cyclops had left the team after unsuccessfully trying to reclaim his leadership role from Storm, but lost a battle with her to determine who should be leader. This was total bull because Storm had lost her powers and there was no way she could've taken Scott. Beast had long since left the X-Men for the Avengers, and Hank had been an Avenger all through the 1970's, until he teamed up with his other former X-Men, Iceman and Angel, to form a new Defenders team which never really took. So Jean's return was the perfect time to get the original band back together.

But this is par for the course for Marvel, because the Avengers found Captain America the same way. Cap was supposed to be dead in the 1960's after the All Winners' Squad ended, but Marvel really wanted to bring him back, so they had The Avengers(Hank Pym, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Thor, and Janet Van Dyne) discover Cap frozen in suspended animation in the Arctic Circle and thaw him out. Hey, at least they're consistent.
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:07 AM
  #247
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Well, they could make a saga out of it, but it requires the kind of storytelling that Hollywood doesn't have the imagination or the balls for.

Oh, and as I stated earlier, it was actually the Fantastic Four that found Jean.
Not quite. It was the Avengers that it started with. They went down there underwater and found Jean's cocoon. It was an issue of the great Stern/Buscema/Palmer run. Then it switched to the FF. Here's the cover: http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comi...3032_large.jpg


Quote:
And this was mostly due to Marvel wanted to reunite the original X-Men team(Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel) for their own new comic series, X-Factor, which was separate from X-Men. The X-Men at that time were off-planet and presumed dead.
The X-Men weren't missing and presumed dead until two years later. Unless you're talking about their brief stay in Asgard, which was over before the issues documenting Jean's return. At the time X-Factor was formed the X-men were still based in the mansion and not off-planet. It was Xavier who was off-planet. He had to be taken to space for medical treatment and he gave the school to Magneto.
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:54 AM
  #248
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Not quite. It was the Avengers that it started with. They went down there underwater and found Jean's cocoon. It was an issue of the great Stern/Buscema/Palmer run. Then it switched to the FF. Here's the cover: http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comi...3032_large.jpg
Damn, I forgot that the Avengers were there too. :faceapalm: I only remember the Fantastic Four being the ones to wake Jean up. Forgive me, it's been a while. I have old comics going all the way back to the 1970's but I haven't read them in a long time. The 80's is when I was reading comics practically every day, and spending a ridiculous amount of money doing it.

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The X-Men weren't missing and presumed dead until two years later. Unless you're talking about their brief stay in Asgard, which was over before the issues documenting Jean's return. At the time X-Factor was formed the X-men were still based in the mansion and not off-planet. It was Xavier who was off-planet. He had to be taken to space for medical treatment and he gave the school to Magneto.
Well I wasn't reading X-Men at the time, I only got into X-Factor, so I was only following what was happening with the original team. After X-Factor formed, I kept hearing that everyone thought the X-Men were dead when they were actually off-planet. I knew that X-Factor and the X-Men didn't reunite until the Inferno storyline, and Scott and the others were surprised to see them alive, and the X-Men were shocked to see Jean alive. And as usual, Wolverine felt entitled to just grab Jean and kiss her right then and there while everyone watched, and I was like, "Who the f does this guy think he is?" That's another reason why I hated the Jean/Logan thing, he treated her like she was his property.
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Old 06-01-2017, 12:36 PM
  #249
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Well Wolverine was never supposed to be an ideal guy. He's an anti-hero. He comes from the '70s tradition. In fact, I think the portrayal of him owes a lot to Jack Nicholson's character Bobby Dupea in Five Easy Pieces (1970), who's a very flawed individual. But generally Wolverine's portrayed as a lot more female-friendly on a deeper level than many standard alpha male superheroes.

Hated the Inferno storyline. Apart from Wolverine and Excalibur, the X-books were in a bad period in the late '80s, roughly 1987 (over a year after Jean's return) down to about 1991, when things picked up again. About late '87 was when they had the Fall of the Mutants storyline and the X-Men died and were secretly resurrected and then based themselves in the Australian Outback while the world thought they were dead. Inferno was about a year later.

Jean/Logan was better than Logan/Mariko, but I was never a big fan of either ship in the comics, because I was never very interested in either of those female characters in the comics. It would have been better if they'd stuck him with Yukio, which Yukio would have liked. In more recent comics they put him with Storm. I wish they did that back in the '80s. Also, I liked Tyger Tiger, his lover in Madripoor in Asia in Marvel Comics Presents and his own comic.
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Old 06-01-2017, 02:34 PM
  #250
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Yeah, but I still think that it was very inappropriate of Logan to do that, and it marginalized and humiliated Scott. Not to mention that Jean was also flirting with Warren Worthington as well, which made Jean seem like a... well, I won't say it. Marvel writers were terrible at writing female characters. But I suspect that this is why Marvel finally decided to end that storyline with teen Scott and Jean coming to the present day, having no history with Logan. Although, killing Logan off was a bit unnecessary.

Oh yeah, I remember that now. The X-Men were in Australia, and that Aborigine with the "bullroarer" who created that portal for them that transported them wherever they wanted to go. I forgot, was he a mutant or just a shaman?

You didn't like Inferno? Madelyne Pryor as the Goblin Queen, her seduction of Havok, N'astirh and Mister Sinister, N'astirh giving Hobgoblin demon power to fight Spider-Man with, little Nathan Summers bonding with Jean as if he knows she's the one his DNA actually comes from, The Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc. Although I thought the inclusion of Power Pack was a bit unnecessary.

Nah, I hated everything about Jean/Logan. It was a total waste because Marvel knew that they were never gonna end the Jean/Scott storyline, and always having Logan acting like a third wheel got annoying. This isn't a soap opera. If Scott were a real person I doubt that he or anyone could tolerate that situation for long, let alone be on the same team with Logan. I actually thought they never really even came up with a romantic interest for Wolverine that ever really worked. Even Logan himself admitted that Jean fit better with Scott.
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Old 06-01-2017, 02:56 PM
  #251
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Yeah, but I still think that it was very inappropriate of Logan to do that,
Saying that is totally missing the point. Wolverine as a character exists to do things that are inappropriate. That's his purpose. That's what he's about. The writers made him do that BECAUSE it was inappropriate.

Quote:
and it marginalized and humiliated Scott.
Kind of like how Madelyne felt after he ran off with Jean?

Quote:
Marvel writers were terrible at writing female characters.
Not true. Chris Claremont did much excellent writing for female characters.


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But I suspect that this is why Marvel finally decided to end that storyline with teen Scott and Jean coming to the present day, having no history with Logan.
Just so Scott could get together with X-23?

Quote:
Although, killing Logan off was a bit unnecessary.
That's putting it mildly. Killing off Marvel's best character just to spite Fox ranks as maximum stupidity.

Quote:
Oh yeah, I remember that now. The X-Men were in Australia, and that Aborigine with the "bullroarer" who created that portal for them that transported them wherever they wanted to go. I forgot, was he a mutant or just a shaman?
Gateway was a mutant. When they made Bishop an Aborigine, they made Gateway his grandfather.

Quote:
You didn't like Inferno? Madelyne Pryor as the Goblin Queen, her seduction of Havok, N'astirh and Mister Sinister, N'astirh giving Hobgoblin demon power to fight Spider-Man with, little Nathan Summers bonding with Jean as if he knows she's the one his DNA actually comes from, The Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc. Although I thought the inclusion of Power Pack was a bit unnecessary.
I didn't like what they did to Madelyne or New York or the Marvel universe. And those demons were bloody annoying.

Quote:
Nah, I hated everything about Jean/Logan. It was a total waste because Marvel knew that they were never gonna end the Jean/Scott storyline, and always having Logan acting like a third wheel got annoying.
A romantic subplot doesn't become a waste just because it's not going to get consummated. It served an important purpose in Wolverine's character and in the relationships between all three characters.

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This isn't a soap opera.
That's questionable. Comics aren't just about bashing supervillains over the head.
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:24 PM
  #252
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Saying that is totally missing the point. Wolverine as a character exists to do things that are inappropriate. That's his purpose. That's what he's about. The writers made him do that BECAUSE it was inappropriate.
But there was no accountability for it, sum1. And it made Jean look like a skank or an idiot. Most women would simply tell a guy that she's with someone and it's not gonna happen. The writers kept making Jean out to be a piece of meat.

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Kind of like how Madelyne felt after he ran off with Jean?
Well, chalk that one up to the writers. And at least Cyclops felt torn and guilty, unlike Jean, who never once tried to discourage Wolverine's advances, even after she and Scott were married. And he and Jean didn't "run off together." They created X-Factor, but they weren't a couple again until after the events of Inferno, when Madelyne was revealed to be a clone of Jean. Scott had attempted to find Madelyne and put his family back together, but she disappeared with Nathan.

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Not true. Chris Claremont did much excellent writing for female characters.
That's one guy. How many Marvel writers messed up characters like Susan Storm, Janet Van Dyne, Carol Danvers, Jessica Drew, etc? When John Byrne came out with the new She-Hulk comic I was relieved that someone finally got it.

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Just so Scott could get together with X-23?
Or Jean getting together with Beast? Like I said before, Marvel feels like they need to start over with them after all the damage they did to Scott and Jean. Just look at what they've done to Captain America, and now they're gonna fix it by having some bearded stranger in tattered WWII clothing showing up and calling himself Steve Rogers. So who's the HYDRA Steve Rogers, another clone? Was the real Steve sent back in time to WWII and just brought back? But there's nothing we can do about it. Marvel screwed up and now they're trying to fix things. I'm assuming they'll eventually get Scott and Jean back together, but slowly.

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That's putting it mildly. Killing off Marvel's best character just to spite Fox ranks as maximum stupidity.
Good character, yes. Marvel's best? Debatable.

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Gateway was a mutant. When they made Bishop an Aborigine, they made Gateway his grandfather.

I didn't like what they did to Madelyne or New York or the Marvel universe. And those demons were bloody annoying.
Ah, yes. Gateway was his name. Thanks, sum1. And they made Bishop an Aborigine? When did that happen?

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A romantic subplot doesn't become a waste just because it's not going to get consummated. It served an important purpose in Wolverine's character and in the relationships between all three characters.

That's questionable. Comics aren't just about bashing supervillains over the head.
Did you see how much damage was done to Scott and Jean's characters because of that silly love triangle thing? It didn't serve any purpose other than to build up Wolverine by tearing down Scott and Jean, and I got sick of it. And have you seen most soap opera writing? I'm all for having good relationship drama as opposed to just having superheroes fighting supervillains, but the Team Edward/Team Jacob stuff we don't need.
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Old 06-02-2017, 02:48 AM
  #253
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Got some reading to do
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Old 06-02-2017, 03:19 PM
  #254
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It's okay, Sarah. I went a little comic booky there, but it was on the topic of Jean and her history. An often frustrating history if you're a fan of hers and a Scott/Jean shipper.

Wow, this sounds interesting:

X-Men Dark Phoenix Producer Says Nothing Is "Out of Bounds" Now - IGN
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:04 PM
  #255
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We took the discussion off thread Sarah, so as not to bother you. It's continiung in PM.

Thanks for the article, Alex.
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