MarvelousToons

Hey don't think ya'll saw the last of me LOL

Eh... before a ton of **** happened, I had responded to a WAAAAAAAY earlier post and... I need to do so LOL

But I'M BACK!

dragonfire

Don't forget Scott/Emma.

I don't know but it's ironic that while there's Scott/Jean/Logan, Scott/Madelyne/Alex, and even Scott/Emma there's still no Peter/Mary-Jane/Felicia.

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-goblyn-queen-krakoa-plan/

PhoenixRising

I agree, sum1. There was really no need to make a duplicate of Jean Grey.

Don't remind me, dragonfire. And yeah, Marvel is doing all this other crap, but where's the Peter/Mary Jane/Felicia threesome we were led to believe would happen? I think they owe us.

Welcome back, MarvelousToons! I hope everything is okay.

I hope you saw my previous post to you because it's probably buried way back.

dragonfire

Sorry. They would probably give us Peter/Mary-Jane/Gwen or maybe even Peter/Gwen/Spider-Gwen before Peter/Mary-Jane/Felicia.

PhoenixRising

I can't believe I'm gonna say this, since I told you I cried when they killed off Gwen in the 1970s, dragonfire, but if I have to put that woman in the ground again myself, I'll do it, permanently. And why wouldn't they? Did they not imply that in that last Spider-Man issue? Felicia is far more important to Peter's storyline anyway. Spider-Gwen is from another universe and she's not involved with Peter at all.

Hey, Marvelous Toons! I'm gonna repost my last reply to you from the previous thread that got closed. That's how long it's been since you've been here.



I'm glad you know who Rachel is. She had a rough go of it for a while back in the 1980s.

And let me just say that I totally agree with everything you and sum1 said about Rey and Star Wars. You've both made similar points that I've made.

Yes, I agree. I think A v X could've been similar to Civil War if done right. I know sum1 doesn't like Civil War, but I think the comics actually went into depth over something that was only hinted at or suggested way back in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, where the Justice League had disbanded and the heroes had retired over concerns about public safety, but also over the idea that superheroes that had once been idolized by the public had become a source of resentment as times had changed, and I'd actually use that as an analogy to today's politically correct climate. Civil War was a post-9/11 allegory about civil rights and public safety, but I think it can also tie in with TDKR when it comes to superheroes going from being idolized to "problematic" in a society that no longer sees superheroes as anything other than cops with capes. It's like what Clark told Bruce in TDKR: "The rest of us learned to cope. The rest of us recognized the danger, the endless envy of those not blessed. Diana went back to her people. Hal went to the stars. And I have walked the razor's edge for so long. But you, Bruce... you, with your wild obsession. You were the one they used against us, Bruce; the one who played it rough. They'll kill us if they can, Bruce. Every year they grow smaller, every year they hate us more. We must not remind them that giants walk the Earth." So I think that A v X could've been more relevant and poignant instead of whatever the hell that was. Civil War and Secret Invasion are really the only 21st century Avengers storylines I actually like. Everything since then has been garbage.

You don't like Hope? I just don't like her name, for obvious reasons. But I do think she basically steals Rachel's place in the mythology.


Well, that sucks. None of these MCU fans even know who the real GotG are. They don't know about the original 33rd century team with Starhawk, Aleta, Vance Astro, Yondu, and the others. They know nothing about Adam Warlock, which is a shame. Oh, in my MCU(or more specifically, the cinematic Avengers Saga), the Guardians are Adam Warlock, Gamora, Drax The Destroyer, Moondragon, Rocket Raccoon, Groot, and Nova. I have Richard Ryder joining the team when he's not working with the Nova Corps.

Yes, I know I answered my own question. But I was perhaps naïvely hoping that my answer wasn't the actual answer, because that would only confirm that Hollywood is run by idiots today. You're right, Gunn's GotG is just fanfiction with mega-geek Gunn casting Peter Quill as himself. What's wrong with just having Adam Warlock in that role?

Well, I actually do agree with you. I don't think that everything the MCU has done has been complete rubbish. I loved Iron Man and Captain America: The Winter Soldier, although sum1 didn't. I also loved The Avengers, although the omission of Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne is unforgivable. But once they got to the mess that was Age of Ultron I just gave up. I do think that Feige has some ability to put together a compelling story, but he has no vision. Again, he's a manager, he's not an artist. My six volume Avengers story is well thought out and planned using the existing source material.

Feige was just making things up as he went along. If he had an actual plan then he'd never have allowed Edgar Wright's Ant-Man to see the light of day in the MCU, he'd never have done what he did with Iron Man 2 and 3 or Age of Ultron, and he wouldn't have tried all those TV tie-ins like Agent Carter and Agents of SHIELD, or the Netflix shows. I know sum1 liked them and I think the Netflix shows should've been separate from the MCU. As for Evans being miscast... yeah, I have to say he is. I like him in the role, but he wouldn't be my choice.

Yeah, that guy. Well, I did like the stuff with Scott and Jean, and the stuff with Quicksilver. I just think the rest of the film wasn't that well thought out.


Yeah, I agree. But I've actually thought that Jean having a cosmic storyline really didn't fit her. I think it works with some characters, like Carol Danvers, but not Jean. Like you said, it always just ends up being this endless cycle of torture for her. Man, you're torturing me with this "cosmic rival."

Wow, you really don't like Gunn. I love your ideas, though. But is Dr. Strange a cosmic antihero? I think Adam, Nova, and Carol are more that type of character.


Thank you. I'm glad you like that. See, while I'm aware that Carol is a feminist character, I also believe in portraying characters like real people, the way real people talk. I recall what Harrison Ford once said to George Lucas on the set of Star Wars about his dialogue. "You can write this crap, but you can't say it." Marvel characters can get a bit melodramatic and Shakespearean at times, and many of them do in my saga. Adam and Thanos go at it like that, as do Thor and Loki, because it's... what they do. But I also believe in portraying people as people and not caricatures. Remember Princess Leia's dialogue in Star Wars? She starts off rather stuffy, saying, "General Tarkin. I should've known you'd be holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board." Okay, what? Is she Princess Leia or Lady MacBeth? But then later on she says things like, "Will someone get this walking carpet out of my way?" when walking behind Chewbacca. Then when she sees the Millennium Falcon for the first time she turns to Han and says, "You came in that thing? You're braver than I though." I love that line. Poor Falcon, always getting dissed. But the point is that it gives Leia a chance to sound like a real person. You and sum1 have already discussed the issue with Rey in the sequel trilogy, and you can tell that she's no Princess Leia. She's more like a girl trying to be Luke Skywalker and failing miserably.

That's why I write Adam and Carol the way that I do, along with all of the other characters. I told you that I thought of Adam Warlock as a cross between Superman and Flash Gordon, with him being the most powerful of the heroes, while also having that wavy blonde hairstyle and lightning bolts on his outfit. Sam Jones could easily have played him. But as for a persona, I thought that he might have the same tortured personality that Luke Skywalker had, having the weight of the universe on his shoulders. But I also infused Adam with some of the irreverence and whimsy from Tom Baker as the Fourth Doctor in Doctor Who, only with a Generation X spin with all the 1980s references. I loved Tom Baker, and how he'd just drive his companions crazy with his humor. Yes, Adam and Carol would have a kind of playful banter, where he does drive her a bit crazy and times, and he's enamored by her strength and resolve, and I just sort of got the idea of pairing them since Gamora was doomed to die in my story, just as she did in the comics. Like I said, Carol would have the role in the story that was previously occupied by the Silver Surfer. There's a scene between Carol and Adam that is taken from dialogue originally between Adam and the Surfer, where Carol asks Adam, "Why do you treat all of this as if it were just a game?" Adam pauses, and replies, "Because if I allowed myself to think of it as anything else, I couldn't go on."


Yep, the ending is the tough part, isn't it? You have to stick the landing, and that can be a pain. The beginning is easy because you just have to start with a simple idea. The middle can be frustrating until you start to piece together the narrative, and then it practically writes itself. But a satisfying ending? That's tough. Look at shows like Lost and you'll see how tough it is. But for me it wasn't that difficult because the comics provided inspiration. After Adam turns Thanos into a stone statue, the Celestials show up and things get a little tense. But the universe doesn't end up getting all messed up as Adam already knows what he has to do. See, it's like Mozart's The Magic Flute, although instead of a flute it's the Infinity Gems. The main narrative of Adam's story in the Avengers Saga is free will. Rejection of dogma and groupthink, and questioning whether you're really fighting for the right cause or if it all could be a total lie. In the end, it's about individualism and free will, and the self not being a delusion but one's own personal salvation.

Well said. Actually, what we're going through now closely resembles what the world was going through 500 years ago following the Reformation and the invention of the printing press, when texts were published and distributed across Europe, spreading doctrines and dogmas that created ideological groupthink, and heresy, blasphemy, and witchcraft were the objects of "cancel culture," only they called it "excommunication."

Good luck with that. That all sounds so ambitious I'm amazed that someone other than myself actually thinks of stuff like this.

I hope you can. Jennifer Lawrence is actually who I see as my Carol Danvers. sum1 hates that idea, but she's who I see opposite Adam. I also considered Yvonne Strahovsky. Anyone but Brie Larson.

Wow, you're taking Carol's memories again? I hope you come up with something good and compelling. I hated it when she went all Binary back in the 80s.

I love Nolan as well. I highly recommend Memento as well.

Oh, I only wish the MCU cared about Adam as much as you do.

Well, I can tell you what I'd want to do with these Hollywood higher-ups, but I'd probably get into trouble.

MarvelousToons

Hiyaz Alex! LOL thanx a lot, I actually found that I saved my incomplete post. But hey, nice to have the refresher still

Um... I don't know why writers seem to bring Gwen Stacy into Peter Parker's story so much. Like... they have no reason to do so, she's her own Spiderling in her own universe. And the two characters to me don't even ship well. Peter's story works best with someone in his life that's more average, pairing him with another super something, doesn't... make sense in the long run... at least to me -_-

Yeah, Rachel has an interesting plot in my story as well lol But... I'd like to realize more with her character, and explore some new plot ideas, without the Phoenix

I actually liked and wanted to like Rey as a character... but the writers' and producers' lack of vision and narrative dimension, is why she didn't work, and in reality, the whole third trilogy in general, didn't work. The original trilogy isn't a complicated one, it has a simplicity to it, with some complex themes, and that's why it was great. No one remembers these basics

And let me just say too... I also HATE that these writers keep ****ting on Scott's character. And why did he have to be incarcerated? Wasn't all his crimes the Phoenix's fault? That's something I really wanna fix in my series; exploring Scott's character as a strong, capable leader, who sometimes make very misguided choices, judgments and miscalls, in which causes complex consequences... And little moments of being a know-it-all and micromanaging... but still well intended and loyal... y'know, explore his character that way.

But yes, that with Justice League is a great example of what AvX needed. Showcase the impact of "judgement and cancel culture" against the very heroes that are trying to save lives, and sometimes causes damages in the process. Let's have a socio-political piece on the entitled "soccer-mom" demographic that takes up a false right to dictate how the heroes should conduct themselves, let's see that other side of "toxic" political correctness.

Then there's in-fighting over the missions of both groups, one, the Avengers I'd see, are compliant to these new demands, while the X-Men, don't wanna stand down. It could lead to so much tension, and even some wanting to stage incidents to prove their point to the public, leading to more confusion and chaos. There... what I said is better than all the thought and work put into AvX combined.

And Jason Aaron is at it again. Heard the news about Namor becoming Phoenix again?

I hate Hope cuz she's the most unnecessary, unoriginal character in the Marvel Universe. Just a cheap Jean Grey copy. Also, I hated her "cocky" personality, and this... bratty teen thing they were trying to do with her... and imply she's created by the Phoenix? I often hate "messiah" fanfics, because the lead in question is often serves the author's avatar fantasy, and the story offers nothing in its narrative.


No it's the actual answer It is unfortunate that... the films did a disservice to such source material, in favor of fanfics y'know I like your GoG line up. Richard Ryder I know from something I read up on, but cool. Nice that Drax is actually with his daughter, instead of the plot of his daughter being killed. It should have been him and his daughter fighting for the same cause in the films

Gunn omitted anything his walnut brain refused to processed. Writing Adam Warlock's character would take a full sized brain, fully equipped with knowledge of complex character development, understanding the interplay of the hero and villain within, and taking **** seriously in general. The seven year old trapped in the 50-whatever old body, James Gunn, can't do complex storytelling. That's why Adam was omitted.

In the all in all, looking at the MCU as a standalone, its a very well told, interconnected story overall... yes there were the Iron Man 2's, IM3's, Thor 1 and 2, GotG as far as I'm concerned. Its when I step back and look at comic canon that, this falls apart.

Missteps I hated from the beginning, like Thor 1 and 2 were unforgivable to me. I love Thor, and wished we had some awesome explorations into the world of Asgard and the Nine Realms on some level. Dismissing Hank and Janet were also awful judgments, despite the fact I did love Ant-Man as a movie, and I loved Paul Rudd... sorry I kinda have a little crush

Part of what went wrong for Feige, is... giving him the benefit of a doubt (cuz I really like him, as a person... so far) Feige had been through a lot personally in the world of film, and often was snubbed, and not credited for his involvement in many films, prior to the MCU. So when it came to the MCU... he came up with this idea of taking Marvel "stories" and... doing a reworking/TLR thing with it, to make it easy for mass audiences to digest, appreciate and immerse themselves into (which did happen). He did "dumb" some things down, to make it more appreciable and appropriate for young audiences, that's why there's the PG-13 cap on these films.

I'm not that kind of storyteller, I'm more raw, experimental, and won't shy away from violence, drugs and other challenging kind of content. But... that would be a reason why I'm not selected for their overall production. In the end, they want as many audiences to enjoy superheroes as possible; comics from early on, were more geared towards kids than any other audience. They've just evolved quite a bit over time.

Regardless... it doesn't excuse certain crimes against cinema level judgments and calls But... I am willing to try to understand Feige's perspective and why choices were made; however, recognize the flaws and problems that came about his choices. Thor was something I always was disappointed with, cuz I love Thor from mythology, so was very disappointed with how his character was handled. He's good at what he does AS a producer, but he definitely needed someone who is very comic savvy with developing the VISION of the MCU. They could have worked together on building something to bridge mass audiences with comics in a much more efficient way... then we'd prolly wouldn't be having this convo

I loved the Quicksilver scene... but... eh, that's not a movie I'd revisit anytime soon

LOL its a plot that I WILL soon reveal in greater detail, besides, as radical as this idea is, I would NEED to run it by some comic buffs to get extra opinions About last month, after discussing the plot with an active participant, they gave me an idea of what a cosmic hero could be, that... transcends anything I've ever seen done, prolly in comics altogether. It's a serious game changer, and I am excited to incorporate it into the "Cosmic Rival's" character development

I personally wouldn't have Jean either as a cosmic hero... but since that was a complaint in my Q&A, its something that I am going to tackle.

Rather than the "endless cycle of torture", it focuses on her and Phoenix sharing the same issues from different perspectives; the Phoenix has to deal with the fact that IT itself is the creator of its own demons, which even reflects in the life forms that turned to evil. Jean Grey through this journey, is forced to face certain shortcomings of hers within the X-Men. The issues of both characters are reflectively tied to the Cosmic Rival, and its/his host. Something I will share in PM, in good time

No I don't James Gunn is not a great filmmaker, from the **** I've seen of his in the past. GotG is actually his best work.

But thanks

So yes AND no... Dr. Strange is not an "antihero" inherently, but is by circumstance. Strange is put in this weird position because of Brother Voodoo, who is more of an antihero, fully supporting the Cosmic Rival over the Phoenix. Bro. Voodoo reveals to Dr. Strange his reason why the Cosmic Rival needs support, and after weighing it all out (off screen for mystery) Dr. Strange begrudgingly follows suit, believing this would route is actually most beneficial to the Universe and this "greater picture". Adam Warlock is another who favors the Cosmic Rival, but for personal reasons, and potential gains.

Best put, the Phoenix and Jean Grey are "antivillains" appearing as heroes with the support of all the main heroes, while the "Cosmic Rival" and its X-Man host are "antiheroes" appearing as villains, with a select few people, supporting it's cause But in the end, the Cosmic Rival is actually the "protagonist" and the Phoenix is the "antagonist" but not in a "good guy/bad guy" way... if that makes any sense lol

Well the problem with Rey is the lack of character development that involves the humanizing side of said character. Someone dealing with shortcomings, miscalls, not really seeing a clear cut, good vs. evil... or which side they're even on. When writing overly "idealistic" characters, you miss out on how a REAL person would react or handle situations. That's what makes characters "relatable".

LOL we laugh all the time about how Princess Leia switched from this British aristocrat, to saying "Into the garbage chute, fly boy!" but still, she was far more relatable and human than what they did with Rey.

With Marvel characters, its easy to fall into one of the two barrels, Shakespeare in the park, or James Gunn cinematic sludge. I mean... its kinda like the weirdness they were going for with Thor in the Avengers film... lines like "I thought you dead" and "you missed the whole point of ruling brother... the throne would suit you ill" but then they went deep into Looney Tunes land when it came to Ragnarok. Don't get me wrong... I LOVED Ragnarok, I even loved the fact they brought a comedic tone to Thor to lighten his character up... um... I DIDN'T like... some of how that was handled. I still wanted Thor to be as serious of a character as Captain America or Iron Man, and they just started clowning him too much

I feel that's a hidden, unseen reason factor many X-Men fans are also fed up with the Phoenix. It also takes away Jean Grey's humanizing aspects, turning her into a big ball of drama, mixed with author overly fantasizing with Jean Grey as Phoenix. Its why I've written the Cosmic Rival as an "antihero", to take on the challenge of humanizing a Cosmic Being of all things, and making an entity that great in power and scope, someone you can relate to and identify with

Oh Sam Jones is totally like Adam's living incarnate

But I get that tone you're bringing to the characters. One can have tremendous responsibility, weighing on them, but let's see how that affects them, and show that despite it all, they are still human It would have been nice to have seen Carol Danvers with a relationship, to help bring her personality out. Also, also, as a writer, you really gotta jump into the shoes of who you're writing about, and put yourself there to visualize these realistic moments. And the nostalgic flavor is a great way to bring that narrative charm, I love it

LOL that line of Adam's reminds me of how I'm always comparing nigh any subject matter with computer science, or game engineering even philosophy and certain subjects in regards to metaphysics and other spiritual discussion, I will draw comparisons with technology, in a way I've been asked (causing annoyance) if I viewed everything from the lenses of my PC... I'm kinda like... "maybe "

Well actually bringing a story to an end is not a problem per'se... it's ****ing... seeing more and more possibilities that build more narrative post initial ending. Think of... never ending sequels that's how my darn brain works lol

Funny you discuss Adam's story of "free will"... The Will (I've created an entire, in-story philosophy based on the Will) is vital to the story I'm writing, and why Adam Warlock plays a major role in the Phoenix Trilogy. It is Adam primarily, who... influenced the Infinity Gems, in a way of changing the course of everything in the entirety of the Omniverse.

The Phoenix Force carries a representation of dogma, order, and authority, while the Cosmic Rival represents free will, violator of cosmic order and laws, and he with the absolute power to write what he would in Destiny, as he sees fit, no regard to the Cosmic Collective. This is why Adam Warlock pursues a psionic relationship with the Cosmic Rival's personal journey, as... Adam sees his own evolution alongside a being of such metapotence and rebellion. How they can absorb from each other-ish like LOL

I believe that... we're in an age of "intellectual evolution"...

When **** starts evolving, it's always rocky; we have multiple genetic mutations, climate change, biospheric changes, species popping in and out of existence, some dying out while new ones come to surface. Evolution is hard, and socio-intellectual evolution is no different from Earth's own environmental changes over hundreds of millions of years. The thing is, only the strongest genes will survive and get to continue... its called "natural selection".

I know for a fact, there's a "natural selection" that pertains to the evolution of human intellect. Its the reason why government, philosophy, social structures, technology and such, has evolved exponentially from our past. Eventually, we will see sensibility win out, with a broadened, more educated perspective, than our previous intellect. Its just... a matter of time for that to transpire

LOL I'm a story-writing junkie. I could do it all day LOL

My hope is to bridge many creative minds, and create an incredible fan-network, of works that finally, comes from our perspective, and display what we'd see fit for our favorite genre film, animation or literature :nods:

LOL I will check it out... eventually

And yep I have a few fans recently reach out to me about what to do with Carol so... I see more and more clearly how to develop her story

Its been recommended to me MULTIPLE times, so... that's also on my watch list


Hopefully moving forward, we WILL get a good writer/director (or at least decent) that will at least give Adam a chance to really shine. The more I read, the more I love the character, and it pains me that... he wasn't in his own story

You wouldn't... not here... my lips are sealed well

dragonfire

You would?

Well, it's just something that I would expect them to do, and who knows maybe since Feige is over the comics the stuff you don't like is like his way of trolling you.

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-krakoa-lea...locke-kwannon/

sum1

Hi 'Toons, I wondered where you'd gone.

MarvelousToons

I call it... life... life happened to me

sum1

I know all about life. It can be a pain in the butt.

PhoenixRising

Yes, I would. Gwen's been dead since The Partridge Family went off the air, and she should stay dead along with David Cassidy and Danny Bonaduce's t-shirts.

No, it's because Feige grew up reading comics but read them the wrong way growing up. He's reflective of a certain segment of the Marvel fanbase that is frankly obnoxious.


Hi, Marvelous Toons! Well, I'm sorry life had to happen to you the way it did, but we're glad you're back.

I promise I'll reply to your very long post when I have more time. I'm taking post counts on all of my boards today.

MarvelousToons

Hey no rush ^_^ I'm busy trying to animate some ****, so lol I'm all good

Don't sweat about me, I'm good now

sum1

Good to hear.

dragonfire

Ok.

Ok.

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-forget-me-not-explained/

PhoenixRising

Thanks for that, dragonfire!


Thanks, MarvelousToons. I promise I'll reply, but it's a long post so it'll take a while.


I'm glad to hear you're good now.