kiamay

It was Occlumency.
But I guess if he is the best and Dumbledore didn't have time to teach him...

sunnykerr

That's a very nice rationalization.

But, honestly, none of them could have taken a second to talk to Harry? They had to give him over to a known bully with half-explanations?

Yeah, I'm with Harry on this one.

kiamay

Finished the re-read... was so good
I'm a bit sad it's over.

And BTW Dumbledore WAS gone a lot chasing horcruxes as it turned out but even he agrees with you that the lessons with Snape were a bad idea

sunnykerr

I think the most wonderful thing about Dumbledore is that he was a flawed character. Because all adults are flawed. So even though Dumbledore is awesome on a lot of levels and he's one of the characters I would qualify as a hero, he does make mistakes.

And, while I don't question the trust he puts in Snape, I think his failure to communicate with Harry about so many things... well, I understand the whole "trying to protect him" aspect, because we do that as adults... but I believe it contributes to the attitude problems Harry may have.

Leadership starts at the top and, as Dumbledore goes, so goes everyone else. Had Dumbledore done better there, the others might have had better success.

kiamay

It even might have kept him alive.
But in that last book my heart really went out to Snape as well and I had totally forgotten about Kreacher and the development of that character

sunnykerr

Exactly, better communication may have even kept Dumbledore alive.

My heart did go out to Snape as well, at his end. Completely. But not enough to forget the rest. He sacrificed a lot out of love for Lily, once she was dead, but it didn't buy back all that he did while she lived. And if love of her couldn't make him treat her son any better, did any of the others ever have a chance?

Like, poor Neville. He "lost" his parents well after Snape had his "come to Jesus" moment, and yet Snape couldn't bring himself to maybe just ignore the little boy.

And what was his favouritism of Malfoy? That's another character who was more complex than he first seemed, but a man who could support a child in all his wrong-headedness like that deserves a serious talking to.

kiamay

"come to Jesus moment"

I think that was Snape being a Slytherin
Also he was really messed up by everything that had happened to him. Even if things change and certain mechanisms become clearer even as adults we're not free of getting trapped in behavioural patterns prompted by old wounds over and over again.
Also Snape never really knew how to care about other people (with the exception of Lilly) which becomes obvious in the memories he hands on to Harry.
I don't thing that excuses his behaviour but I can understand him in a way... but I think he should never have become a teacher Mean old bat

kiamay

"come to Jesus moment"

I think that was Snape being a Slytherin
Also he was really messed up by everything that had happened to him. Even if things change and certain mechanisms become clearer even as adults we're not free of getting trapped in behavioural patterns prompted by old wounds over and over again.
Also Snape never really knew how to care about other people (with the exception of Lilly) which becomes obvious in the memories he hands on to Harry.
I don't thing that excuses his behaviour but I can understand him in a way... but I think he should never have become a teacher Mean old bat

sunnykerr

At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. I understand Dumbledore wanting to keep a close eye on Snape. I will never understand why he was allowed to be in contact with children.

Look, I get that he had baggage. Guess what? Do did a lot of his students. Not to beat on a dead horse, but Harry himself didn't have a great childhood, thanks in no small part to Snape's old buddies. Yet, for all that he may have had the short fuse typical of any teenager I've ever encountered, Harry didn't turn into a bully.

And let's not pretend like going to Hogwarts made Harry's life any better. Most of the books are filled with the whole school turning on Harry, so...

Anyway, long story short, Snape had courage and he earned Dumbledore's trust in the end. But I'm not of those who think it makes him a hero, or a good person.

kiamay

I agree But he was the man we loved to hate

sunnykerr

Er, I didn't love to hate him. I was very frustrated with the inability to get a good picture of him. And, in the end, his secret revelations did not endear me to the man.

The Malfoys, I loved to hate. Bellatrix Lestrange, I loved to hate. Severus Snape? He should have grown up a lot time before the events of the books.

sourburst

My new favourite thread.

sunnykerr

Good.

sourburst

Anyone have any tattoos?

sunnykerr

Of Harry Potter? No. Otherwise, yes.

You?