[Summer Falls]

^ awesome quote i like that bit of teh episode

[joemac]

Originally Posted by Almeida's Army (View Post) Exactly. Just have her on the war council or something. As for the Five Doctors, this is really very interesting. Robert Holmes was originally due to write it and it would have been the Six Doctors with Hurdnell being an android that would betray them. Cybermen would kidnap the five Doctors in order to extract Time Lord DNA to become 'Cyberlords'.Due to the fact that Holmes then wanted the Cybermen and Sutekh as the ultimate bad guy, they couldn't get a workable story so Terrance Dicks took over, though Holmes ended up reusing some of the ideas in The Two Doctors. Now at this stage, Tom was still involved after he agreed to do it, and in the original version, Tom's Doctor was set to betray his other selves, with Dicks saying that his Doctor was the most likely to betray the rest. He was due to be on Gallifrey with Sarah, Jon Pertwee was to be paired with the Brigadier and Troughton with Jamie. When Frazer Hines was unavailable, they turned to Victoria. When actress Deborah Watling also became unavailable and Tom Baker pulled out due to it being too soon after he left and not wanting to play second fiddle, the script was altered again to the one that we saw. But originally, Troughton would have gone below as he did, Pertwee was due to go above as he did, Tom was set to go to Gallifrey with Sarah, Peter was set to go with the first Doctor through the main gate. Both the Quacks and the Autons were set to appear. The Quarks were set to attack Pertwee and Sarah, but was replaced with the Raston Warrior Robot. In the original script, when Sarah arrives in the death zone, she sees scattered mannequins, and she goes over concerned that they are corpses and it turns out they're Autons who grab her, and Pertwee's Doctor comes to the rescue. But it was too expensive and time consuming so they just had her rolling down a hill . Dicks was annoyed at the script editor Eric Saward for favouring the Cybermen and had to fight to keep the Dalek in its solitary scene, despite how iconic they are. They also wanted to bring back more characters. Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan, couldn't do it due to committments in New Zealand and Katy Manning (Jo Grant) wanted to do it but the BBC couldn't afford to fly her from Australia (Though John Nathan-Turner would have done). Harry would have probably accompanied Tom and Sarah and Katy with the Brig and Pertwee. John Levene (Benton) was approached twice. First time, it was to appear in the Brigadier's office where he wouldn't recognise the Second Doctor, which he felt was a complete insult to the character. He then was offered a similar role where he did recognise him, but would say two lines and a total of four words, and he couldn't justify cancelling other commitments. Louise Jameson, ironically if what CommanderM says is true, approached the BBC offering her service but they couldn't fit her in! Colin Baker's Commander Maxil and Elspet Gra's Chancellor Thalia were due to return too but couldn't due to work committments, though Colin's imminent announcement as the Sixth Doctor probably didn't help matters. JNT invited Waris Hussein to direct as he directed An Unearthly Child, but declined as he'd recently moved to the States. Victoria was then due to appear as an illusion with Zoe, but couldn't as she became unavailable so in the 11th hour, Frazer Hines cleared his schedule for one day to film a scene. In the original version, Victoria and Zoe were found out as illusions when Victoria referred to him as Brigadier: Also, and this is quite funny, in the script Susan called the Doctor 'Doctor' instead of Grandfather as, ''We don't really want people to perceive him as having had sex with someone, to father a child.' Carole Ann Ford just screamed with hysterical laughter and said, 'In that case, I'm not doing it.'" So they quickly changed it to Grandfather, as it should be. So... Autons, Sutekh, Jo Grant, Tom Baker... it could have been a vastly different tale. (I also hope this generates good, lengthy discussions as it's taken a flipping age to type! )

nice

[joemac]

It sounds like it would have been an epic story which would have blown the 50th out of the water. From what you were saying there some of the BBC's attitudes were appalling to only give Benton four words or alternatively for him to forget who the doctor is just daft. Why would anyone give up their schedule for only four words.
Secondly the grandfather thing is just so prudish even by old BBC standards. Especially when you consider that this show was once supposed to be an educational one .
In regards to the producer having to fight for the Daleks to stay in the episode its certainly a contrast to today's Daleks saturation. we can't seem to go a single series without seeing the Daleks at least once in the run. It's almost like someone gets a kickback every time the Daleks show up LOL

[Almeida's Army]

To be honest, even as it stands, The Five Doctors is 100000x better than the 50th and remains one of my all time favourite episodes. I agree, that to have Benton not recognise the man he fought Cybermen and Omega with is frankly ridiculous.

I also think that had they kept with the same story, but had the original cast of Hurdnell/Susan, Troughton/Jamie, Pertwee/Jo/Brigadier and Tom/Sarah/Harry, would have been immense. I mean, Pertwee, Jo and the Brig fighting off Autons, Troughton and Jamie fighting off Yeti's. Tom, Sarah and Harry fighting the Cybermen and Time Lords. It would have simply been too good. Admittedly, had the Doctor and Sarah ended up on Gallifrey, it would have raised the question of why Sarah is allowed on Gallifrey when that was the reason for her departure. But I know I wouldn't have cared as it would have been amazing to see them back together. It also would have been nice if there was a bit more interaction between the Doctors- especially as what makes The Three Doctors so great is the chemistry and banter between Troughton and Pertwee.

[CommanderM]

Originally Posted by Almeida's Army (View Post) To be honest, even as it stands, The Five Doctors is 100000x better than the 50th and remains one of my all time favourite episodes. I agree, that to have Benton not recognise the man he fought Cybermen and Omega with is frankly ridiculous. I also think that had they kept with the same story, but had the original cast of Hurdnell/Susan, Troughton/Jamie, Pertwee/Jo/Brigadier and Tom/Sarah/Harry, would have been immense. I mean, Pertwee, Jo and the Brig fighting off Autons, Troughton and Jamie fighting off Yeti's. Tom, Sarah and Harry fighting the Cybermen and Time Lords. It would have simply been too good. Admittedly, had the Doctor and Sarah ended up on Gallifrey, it would have raised the question of why Sarah is allowed on Gallifrey when that was the reason for her departure. But I know I wouldn't have cared as it would have been amazing to see them back together. It also would have been nice if there was a bit more interaction between the Doctors- especially as what makes The Three Doctors so great is the chemistry and banter between Troughton and Pertwee.

Well now, I am amazed at how much was changed from original intentions. Especially Benton whom I loved in the UNIT era. No wonder he didn't agree to do it! I never knew why but thanks to your excellent research I do now!I don't blame him in the slightest.
Not quite sure how I would feel with a 4th Doctor betraying the others though. There would have to be some immense motivation for that to happen. I agree that as it stands, The Five Doctors is a far more satisfying anniversary celebration than The Day of the Doctor. Moff didn't even get the title right in my opinion. It should have been The Day of the Doctors with as many multiple Doctors as they could squeeze in!

[Almeida's Army]

Originally Posted by CommanderM (View Post) Well now, I am amazed at how much was changed from original intentions. Especially Benton whom I loved in the UNIT era. No wonder he didn't agree to do it! I never knew why but thanks to your excellent research I do now!I don't blame him in the slightest. Not quite sure how I would feel with a 4th Doctor betraying the others though. There would have to be some immense motivation for that to happen. I agree that as it stands, The Five Doctors is a far more satisfying anniversary celebration than The Day of the Doctor. Moff didn't even get the title right in my opinion. It should have been The Day of the Doctors with as many multiple Doctors as they could squeeze in!

Agreed. The original brief for the story that was given to Robert Holmes, was to fit in as many past favourites in as possible. That should have been the brief for the 50th. I've just been doing some more research on something else (John Levene and his hatred of Tom Baker- and no hatred is not too strong a word in this case!) and came across a quote from him about The Five Doctors:

I was asked to be in the Five Doctors, but so badly written was Benton's part that actually it was my daughter who said "sod it, Dad, if that's all there is". My part was to be in one short scene, off camera. It would have been a voice-over only, and I would have not recognised Doctor #2, Pat Troughton's Doctor, whom my character started with and whom I also worked with in the Three Doctors. I was to not have tried stopping him going in to see The Brig. So I refused to dilute all the work I had put into Benton. The car salesman p*ssed me off because it was at best unimaginative and at worst, a juvenile insult, given the service Benton gave to his country and U.N.I.T. So yes, an inglorious end to a good and well-rounded character. Sad in a way.

So I found that interesting.

In regards to Tom betraying the others, it's entirely possible that he would have been controlled by Borusa as the Fifth was. But if you'll recall Invasion of Time and other stories of that ilk... he was certainly capable of betraying the others... even if it was briefly.

[CommanderM]

Originally Posted by Almeida's Army (View Post) Agreed. The original brief for the story that was given to Robert Holmes, was to fit in as many past favourites in as possible. That should have been the brief for the 50th. I've just been doing some more research on something else (John Levene and his hatred of Tom Baker- and no hatred is not too strong a word in this case!) and came across a quote from him about The Five Doctors: So I found that interesting. In regards to Tom betraying the others, it's entirely possible that he would have been controlled by Borusa as the Fifth was. But if you'll recall Invasion of Time and other stories of that ilk... he was certainly capable of betraying the others... even if it was briefly.

His seemingly betraying the Time Lords was deemed necessary at the time for a greater good. I just don't see him betraying his other selves unless controlled by some dark force. But tell me why did John Levene hate Tom Baker? They did three serials together and I know he said something about like working with Tom was like working in a vacuum.

[Almeida's Army]

Originally Posted by CommanderM (View Post) His seemingly betraying the Time Lords was deemed necessary at the time for a greater good. I just don't see him betraying his other selves unless controlled by some dark force. But tell me why did John Levene hate Tom Baker? They did three serials together and I know he said something about like working with Tom was like working in a vacuum.

In the mid 2000s, the forum on Doctor Who Online had a Q&A section and they had the likes of Colin Baker, Paul McGann, Louise Jameson, Sophie Aldred, Bonnie Langford amongst others. John Levene had a section and always answered every question with a really nice message and good, honest insight and account to the ways of Doctor Who. However, a theme was his hatred of Tom. One fan asked 'You didnt get on with Tom Baker. Any Ideas why he was so hard to work with.'

Here is what he replied. He definitely doesn't mince his words. It's pretty brutal on Tom.

Your question is well-observed. Of course it is always easier to answer with polite timidity, because the direct answer can lead to confrontation and discomfort. I will, as usual, take the difficult path and answer you honestly. Please keep one point in mind, which is that I have never had to carry the difficult burden of being the star of any show, apart from once on an independent production where Benton was the leading character. The simple and honest answer is that the explosive joy of going form working one year with Pat Troughton, the lovely Frazier Hines, and bubbly Wendy Padbury, moving on to the glorious Jon Pertwee years (the joys of which I discuss at length in other answers on this forum) seemed the perfect storm in reverse. After that, working with Tom Baker with his vastly different style was dismal at best. I am fully aware that this may be an unfair comparison, to measure up the self-centered style of Tom against the generous and warm natures of both Pat and Jon, and it is certainly only my own opinion based upon my own feelings. I was deeply miserable every minute of my time working with Tom. It was not necessarily Tom's "fault", just my own reaction to Tom's way of being and working with those who were part of the successful team that he inherited. With Pat and Jon there was a definite air of a happy family atmosphere. In the rehearsal room, on the location shoots, in the studio, and on the way to work (when I used to pick up Jon and Katy on the way to rehearsals), almost every day I swam in a warm pool of friendship, with no pressure (other than the professional need to do one's job to the best of one's ability). It sounds corny but it genuinely was that way. It was a dream come true for a shy, nervous and over-sensitive boy from the South of England. The cross-over to Tom Baker's Doctor after Jon's departure was of course going to be different. It just naturally had to change, for that is the essence of Doctor Who. We had given our all to Jon, so it should be, give or take, as enjoyable to do the same for Tom, because it would never had occurred to myself or Nick Courtney that things would be so completely opposite. In the place of an easy-going atmosphere and familiarity came a sense of strain and pressure. In the place of a caring and cooperative ensemble came a continual and pervasive isolation. Division would be a good word to describe it. This was nobody's fault, it is a reaction-based issue. Tom's vision of playing The Doctor was that he was to "be the star", the namesake of the show, and the only character of importance against an ever-changing backdrop of guest appearances by humans and monsters he either saved or vanquished, and saw little or no need to have anybody else there (companions, regular supporting actors or entities such as U.N.I.T.). He simply wanted us gone and made no secret of it. We were ignored, talked down to, isolated, undermined, and treated exactly as one would treat people hoping they would get fed up and just go away - and go away we did. Of course, one cannot just expect to be wanted all the time, and we were not hired to form lasting bonds, so one can argue "it's just business, get over it", but for all the practical words, working in an emotionally toxic atmosphere can break a spirit as easily as breaking a dry twig. You have to either put up with the abject misery, or just leave. Fortunately U.N.I.T. was being naturally written out of Doctor Who, so letting go in the end was a natural progression. Thank you for posting this question. Kindest regards, John

Now, I'd be very interested to hear you in depth thoughts on that. Because that is pretty damning.

[CommanderM]

Originally Posted by Almeida's Army (View Post) In the mid 2000s, the forum on Doctor Who Online had a Q&A section and they had the likes of Colin Baker, Paul McGann, Louise Jameson, Sophie Aldred, Bonnie Langford amongst others. John Levene had a section and always answered every question with a really nice message and good, honest insight and account to the ways of Doctor Who. However, a theme was his hatred of Tom. One fan asked 'You didnt get on with Tom Baker. Any Ideas why he was so hard to work with.' Here is what he replied. He definitely doesn't mince his words. It's pretty brutal on Tom. Now, I'd be very interested to hear you in depth thoughts on that. Because that is pretty damning.

It is it really is. Never suspected it got so bad after Jon left that the familial atmosphere suffered with Tom's ambitions for lack of a better word. Makes me want to reevaluate Tom Baker as a Doctor but at the end of the day whats on tape is what matters. In the end, Tom delivered hit after hit of Doctor Who adventures for children and families everywhere. But it is a shame Tom was hard to work with so early on.

[Almeida's Army]

Originally Posted by CommanderM (View Post) It is it really is. Never suspected it got so bad after Jon left that the familial atmosphere suffered with Tom's ambitions for lack of a better word. Makes me want to reevaluate Tom Baker as a Doctor but at the end of the day whats on tape is what matters. In the end, Tom delivered hit after hit of Doctor Who adventures for children and families everywhere. But it is a shame Tom was hard to work with so early on.

I get the impression he has mellowed now, but there were times when he was impossible to work with. I mean, I've got numerous stories that I'm more than happy to share that I've seen around the place, and while not all of them are strictly negative, it's clear to see, he was a very flawed human being but an absolutely remarkable actor.

[CommanderM]

Originally Posted by Almeida's Army (View Post) I get the impression he has mellowed now, but there were times when he was impossible to work with. I mean, I've got numerous stories that I'm more than happy to share that I've seen around the place, and while not all of them are strictly negative, it's clear to see, he was a very flawed human being but an absolutely remarkable actor.

Lalla Ward and Louise Jameison had issues with Tom during their stints as companions. Louise made her peace with Tom early on and are now good friends which is good as they are working together again in the audio range. Lalla is supposed to work with Tom next year or so. But at the time she defended Tom's passion for the series but said he was her favorite monster at the same time.

[Almeida's Army]

Originally Posted by CommanderM (View Post) Lalla Ward and Louise Jameison had issues with Tom during their stints as companions. Louise made her peace with Tom early on and are now good friends which is good as they are working together again in the audio range. Lalla is supposed to work with Tom next year or so. But at the time she defended Tom's passion for the series but said he was her favorite monster at the same time.

Well it's no wonder she doesn't like him after the way the marriage ended! I mean, wow, talk about harsh!

As for Louise, yes their first season, Tom was very tough on her, and it built up until a blazing row during Horror of Fang Rock and after that they got on fine. Louise said that he had her over for dinner and apologised for his behaviour towards her saying "I wasn't very nice to you, was I Darling?". But again, even at the time, Louise appreciated his passion and dedication. I remember reading one time that during the filming of one of their episodes, Louise walked past Tom's dressing room and heard him screaming and swearing down the phone at someone. Louise goes in to see if he's okay and he said that he was just on his phone to his agent, as recently Tom had done a charity function, and donated any appearance fee to the charity, and he had just found out that his agent had taken his 10% cut so was screaming at him, 'Don't you dare touch that f'ing money!' and fired him and paid the money out of his own pocket and Louise always said that even when Tom was unbearable, she would always think back to that moment.

[CommanderM]

Originally Posted by Almeida's Army (View Post) Well it's no wonder she doesn't like him after the way the marriage ended! I mean, wow, talk about harsh! As for Louise, yes their first season, Tom was very tough on her, and it built up until a blazing row during Horror of Fang Rock and after that they got on fine. Louise said that he had her over for dinner and apologised for his behaviour towards her saying "I wasn't very nice to you, was I Darling?". But again, even at the time, Louise appreciated his passion and dedication. I remember reading one time that during the filming of one of their episodes, Louise walked past Tom's dressing room and heard him screaming and swearing down the phone at someone. Louise goes in to see if he's okay and he said that he was just on his phone to his agent, as recently Tom had done a charity function, and donated any appearance fee to the charity, and he had just found out that his agent had taken his 10% cut so was screaming at him, 'Don't you dare touch that f'ing money!' and fired him and paid the money out of his own pocket and Louise always said that even when Tom was unbearable, she would always think back to that moment.

Remarkeable. Yes, it was a sad thing for Tom and Lalla to not be able to make a go of it with being married but they had according to her fallen in love with the others' character and not the person behind the performance so to speak. I look forward to their Big Finish output which starts in the coming year or so.

[Almeida's Army]

Originally Posted by CommanderM (View Post) Remarkeable. Yes, it was a sad thing for Tom and Lalla to not be able to make a go of it with being married but they had according to her fallen in love with the others' character and not the person behind the performance so to speak. I look forward to their Big Finish output which starts in the coming year or so.

While that was the reason (Falling out of love) it could have been better handled shall we say? And then they could at least have stayed friends. But the way Tom broke it off was brutal. It's no wonder she didn't see him after that! (And two stories with Lalla is out in January)

[Summer Falls]

^ wow i didnt know any of that .. sad to read this side of Tom but i do understand the way he did his era and why the other characters didnt blend in with him . Just really shocking , was there any other tension on the set during the classic who??