Doctor Who - 2010 Christmas Special "A Christmas Carol" Episode Discussion - Page 5

Mrs.Almeida · 01-11-2011, 12:32 PM

It is weird. Somehow I kind of agree with you about how I liked the show better Moffat took over. But then again, I do liked the last series

I think it helped me a lot to think of this as two seperate, different shows. Essentially, they are the same but apart from the core they are different - if that makes any sense whatsoever

indigo sunrise · 01-11-2011, 02:40 PM

Yeah I feel the same way, I still LOVE it now, but I am missing that.. I don't know, I can't put my finger on what it was exactly. Somehow, back when RTD was in charge, I got more invested and I cared more

but that's really not to say that I don't still adore the show as it is now. Just in a different way, I suppose. But I do know what you mean.

Raonaild · 01-14-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nocte Obducta (View Post)

I really think that last years season wasn't as good as the ones before, and I think it's because of Russel T. Davies absence. In my opinion it missed structure and plausibility. the episodes seemed rushed with no real character or story development.
But who knows, maybe the next time I'm going to watch it I will like it better. Except for the horrible season finale. *g*

I can understand not liking the show this season as much as in previous years. You like something or you don't, it's just how you feel, maybe you don't even have a rational reason for it.

But, seriously, you're saying RTD had more structure and plausibility? He was responsible for some of the more ridiculous, deus ex machina plots in the new series. He's also Mr. Bad Wolf, the series arc that wasn't. To me there's just no comparison between the show structurally in S5 compared to S1-S4, Moffat is far, far more scrupulous about consistent, long term plot and show structure than RTD. The only RTD series that I thought even came close to S5 in terms of structure was S3's Saxon arc, but even that only really came into play in the last three episodes, unlike S5 this year where the cracks-in-time arc was gradually developed in almost every ep.

Moffat was so organized about the overall story arc, he knew in episode 1 that the Doctor was going to re-appear in Amy's house in episode 13, and so there's a very subtle scene where a shadow runs in front of the camera while young Amy is waiting in the garden for the Doctor to return, and that shadow is Matt Smith's. Then of course there's the scene in Flesh and Stone where they filmed a bit that was actually a pivotal scene in ep 13, and FaS was one of the first eps of S5 that they filmed. Compare that to Bad Wolf, where RTD has said himself he had no idea what it meant, he just directed writers to insert Bad Wolf references into their stories wherever, and he gave it a meaning at the end.

As for character development, I thought there was loads of this series - the Eleventh Doctor, Amy and Rory all develop as characters over the season, and there were some very strong secondary characters along the way as well: Churchill, River Song, Vincent, Craig.

And as for the season finale being horrible, I just can't get my head around this either. All of the RTD season finale's, IMO, had huge flaws of one form or another: In Parting of the Ways, Rose magicking all the Daleks away (and Jack back to life) was a copout solution to an otherwise decent buildup. Doomsday was okay, the parting of Rose and Ten was well done, but the Cybermen vs. the Daleks was overblown. In Last of the Time Lords, as much as I loved John Simm's Master and the final scene between him and the Doctor, most everything else up to that point was rather poor, or at least boring. I found most everything about Journey's End completely ridiculous (Time Lord-Donna, Duplicate-Ten, the Daleks, towing Earth back into position and everybody on the planet getting blown around in the process). In general, I thought RTD's finale's had decent, promising buildups, but conclusions that didn't pay off.

As for The End of Time, I didn't really like any of it despite the fact that I'm a big John Simm/Master fan and I'd been hoping for a return of Gallifrey and the Time Lords since S1. I thought was really the worst of the specials, and the ultimate end before Ten's regeneration was dragged out for far too long.

In contrast, I found the S5 series finale incredibly strong - entertaining, exciting, funny, sad - from start to finish. IMO, it's easily the best finale of any season so far.

fitbrit · 01-22-2011, 02:28 PM

I have to say that I agree with almost all of this, if not all!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raonaild (View Post)

I can understand not liking the show this season as much as in previous years. You like something or you don't, it's just how you feel, maybe you don't even have a rational reason for it.

But, seriously, you're saying RTD had more structure and plausibility? He was responsible for some of the more ridiculous, deus ex machina plots in the new series. He's also Mr. Bad Wolf, the series arc that wasn't. To me there's just no comparison between the show structurally in S5 compared to S1-S4, Moffat is far, far more scrupulous about consistent, long term plot and show structure than RTD. The only RTD series that I thought even came close to S5 in terms of structure was S3's Saxon arc, but even that only really came into play in the last three episodes, unlike S5 this year where the cracks-in-time arc was gradually developed in almost every ep.

Moffat was so organized about the overall story arc, he knew in episode 1 that the Doctor was going to re-appear in Amy's house in episode 13, and so there's a very subtle scene where a shadow runs in front of the camera while young Amy is waiting in the garden for the Doctor to return, and that shadow is Matt Smith's. Then of course there's the scene in Flesh and Stone where they filmed a bit that was actually a pivotal scene in ep 13, and FaS was one of the first eps of S5 that they filmed. Compare that to Bad Wolf, where RTD has said himself he had no idea what it meant, he just directed writers to insert Bad Wolf references into their stories wherever, and he gave it a meaning at the end.

As for character development, I thought there was loads of this series - the Eleventh Doctor, Amy and Rory all develop as characters over the season, and there were some very strong secondary characters along the way as well: Churchill, River Song, Vincent, Craig.

And as for the season finale being horrible, I just can't get my head around this either. All of the RTD season finale's, IMO, had huge flaws of one form or another: In Parting of the Ways, Rose magicking all the Daleks away (and Jack back to life) was a copout solution to an otherwise decent buildup. Doomsday was okay, the parting of Rose and Ten was well done, but the Cybermen vs. the Daleks was overblown. In Last of the Time Lords, as much as I loved John Simm's Master and the final scene between him and the Doctor, most everything else up to that point was rather poor, or at least boring. I found most everything about Journey's End completely ridiculous (Time Lord-Donna, Duplicate-Ten, the Daleks, towing Earth back into position and everybody on the planet getting blown around in the process). In general, I thought RTD's finale's had decent, promising buildups, but conclusions that didn't pay off.

As for The End of Time, I didn't really like any of it despite the fact that I'm a big John Simm/Master fan and I'd been hoping for a return of Gallifrey and the Time Lords since S1. I thought was really the worst of the specials, and the ultimate end before Ten's regeneration was dragged out for far too long.

In contrast, I found the S5 series finale incredibly strong - entertaining, exciting, funny, sad - from start to finish. IMO, it's easily the best finale of any season so far.

kiamay · 02-10-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Lets face it this is Doctor Who and sometimes the stories don't make sense.

That's true

And I think - even though I'm kind of late in this CHRISTMAS discussion - that the story was well told. I was hooked from beginning to end, I thoroughly enjoyed the weird and twisted plot. Most of all I enjoyed good old "Dumbledore" who did a teriffic job

Did you guys watch the Doctor Who confidential? It was so sweet how excited they were about working with Michael Gambon