[AlexEvans]

Blocking Amy's memories was completely unforeshadowed. It didn't display the full range of Tess' capabilities; but it did show she was vastly, vastly more powerful than ever before shown. It showed she was far more ruthless than ever before hinted at. (And it showed none of her friends acting with a moral compass either.)

Assuming that Tess could impersonate Isabel so well Alex couldn't see through it is a big assumption. And convincing him never to contact Isabel, Liz, Maria, his parents... it doesn't remotely add up.

You're both forgetting the whole 'Ray' thing.

Amy would have trusted Jim if no one else, if he had said "I'll explain as soon as we're out of here."

Messing with someone's mind is big. It's horribly invasive - far more aply described as mind rape than what Nicholas does (mere voyeurism by comparison).

Yes, Tess was suddenly changed. But not in "Departure" - in the episode before.

If OTM had been shown after HOM, when CYN was aired it would have been immediately obvious that Tess was the murderer. I tend to agree that may not even have been decided yet. But either it was very sloppy planning or it was a huge cheat to create a mystery for the fans that shouldn't have existed for any of the characters.

[img]smilies/abduct.gif[/img] [img]smilies/read.gif[/img]

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited Abducted Bookworm ]

[Ladeia]

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: <STRONG> I think it was believable that Tess accomplished what she did with the powers the audience knew she had. For example, the audience knows that Tess can alter records, so that would account for how she could change school records, both at West Roswell and in Las Cruces. The audience also knows that Tess was in Las Cruces, when she worked with Isabel and Max, in order for Max to age Pierce’s bones. Tess could have learned about the super computer then. As far as getting Alex to do the translation, Tess could have mindwarped Alex into thinking that Isabel asked him to secretly do the translation for her and the other aliens. Alex loved Isabel. He loved helping the aliens. He might even have devised the trip to Sweden ruse himself. Since Sweden is in a different time zone, communication would reasonably be handled through emails. Alex could have set up the account himself. Alex could have gathered information himself about Sweden, so he could convince his family and the school that he had been in Sweden, when he returned to Roswell. Tess could also have mindwarped Alex to believe that he should stay to himself and not talk to others, so his mission would remain secret. As long as mindwarps weren’t interrupted or contradicted, they could remain effective for long periods of time. For example, Max didn’t know that Zan wasn’t really dying, while he was on Earth. (Max might have suspected a mindwarp, but he couldn’t know for certain.) Max didn’t learn the truth about Zan’s health on Earth, until about a year later. Agent Duff also never suspected that she hadn’t really seen Kyle’s grades on the blank sheet of paper. As long as things didn’t contradict the mindwarp, the mindwarp remained in effect. Once Alex completed the translation, he would notify Tess in some manner. Again, that could be part of what Alex believed (through mindwarp) that Isabel wanted him to do. Tess then would suppress Alex’s memory of doing the translation in Las Cruces, the same way she suppressed Amy’s memory of what happened with Brody. Then Tess would mindwarp Alex into believing he really had gone to Sweden. [ 12-28-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ]</STRONG>

Yes, that could have been possible but we were never given any indication of that on the show. We were just given Tess mindwarped Alex into decoding the book and then believing he had been to Sweden. When Kyle remembered walking in on Alex's final moments with Tess, Alex never mentions that he translated the book willingly and then Tess did something to him after he translated it. We were made to believe that Tess used her powers to force him into translating the book and creating two months of memories. If they had found out that Alex had believed Isabel was trying to get him to translate the book or if he had just decided to do it on his own as a surprise and Tess found out about it after the fact then that would have been more believable and wouldn't have made Tess seem so powerful.

[locutus of borg]

I liked most of S2, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] but not as much as S1 and S3. I really liked them getting rid of "Tex" [img]smilies/devil.gif[/img] in the end of the season.

I don't believe that EOTW was real. The "evil mindwarping whore from hell" [img]smilies/devil.gif[/img] mindwarped Liz in order to steal Max away from her! (LOL)

I didn't care much for Grant, [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] or that storyline. The worst though, in my opinion, were the dupes. [img]smilies/alien.gif[/img] Roswell could have gone ten seasons without introducing those creeps. ( I'll make an exception for Ava) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

we are the Borg [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img]

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ]

[Citrus and Vine]

[img]smilies/wave.gif[/img] fetch, locutus of borg, Ladeia, Abducted Bookworm, and everyone!

from Ladeia: If they had found out that Alex had believed Isabel was trying to get him to translate the book or if he had just decided to do it on his own as a surprise and Tess found out about it after the fact then that would have been more believable and wouldn't have made Tess seem so powerful.

That, of course, would be the problem to explain to the audience how everything happened, since none of the characters left alive ever found out either.

Kyle sees Alex reciting part of the translation. Alex didn’t explain what he was doing or how he got the information.

I think Alex needed to be alert and in control of his brain, while using the super computer. That’s why I doubt that Alex was mindwarped into thinking he was in Sweden, while he was actually doing the translation. I think Alex knew he was pretending to be in Sweden, while he did the translation. I think during the time he wasn’t working on the super computer, he gathered information on Sweden. I think he familiarized himself with the information, rather than Tess implanting the information. Alex was happy and confident when he talked about his trip.

I think your suggestion that Alex could have decided to do the translation on his own as a surprise, and Tess found out about it after the fact sounds good at first.

Alex, however, didn’t have the source material for the translation. Max had the book that Nasedo and Tess concocted to convince Max, Isabel, and Michael to pair up and produce children for Kivar. They didn’t know the book was fake. (The book had some real alien symbols and it had the Antar V-shaped symbol.)

The audience knows that the so-called “Destiny Book” wasn’t the source for the translation, because the book had drawings and some symbols on a few pages. The translation, in contrast, had many pages of close type. Tess evidently had the source material for the translation, so Alex couldn’t have decided on his own to do the translation as a surprise, unless he had access to the source material. Max had hidden the purported alien book Tess once had in the podchamber, so Alex couldn’t have used that.

Tess could have told Alex about the source material, and then he could have decided on his own to translate it as a surprise for Isabel. That idea would work, I think. Thank you for your ideas, Ladeia!

[Citrus and Vine]

from Abducted Bookworm: Amy would have trusted Jim if no one else, if he had said "I'll explain as soon as we're out of here."

I doubt that Amy would have gone on Jim’s word, since she didn’t accept what her own daughter told her.

Jim couldn’t have told Amy anything more than what Maria told her mother. None of the podsters or their friends wanted any more people to be exposed to alien problems. Even if Jim explained all about aliens, Amy would still believe that Brody was dangerous, because he had threatened her daughter.

The reason why Amy talked aloud unknowingly at night even with the mindwarp suppression was that the event was so traumatic. Amy made it clear to everyone at the UFO center that she would not keep quiet. Tess’ mindwarp kept Amy from telling others what really happened that night.

~~~~~~~~~~

from Abducted Bookworm: Blocking Amy's memories was completely unforeshadowed.

Maybe Tess’ power to suppress Amy’s memory was foreshadowed, by the knowledge that the aliens continued to develop new powers. For example, Max had never been able to use the green force shield, until he was startled by the welder. Tess had never added her power to Max’s power, until they had to hold off the Skins in Copper Summit.

Tess had never killed people, until she killed many Skins in the high school by using her powers.

Even without knowing that Tess could block memories, the audience knows that Tess could make people believe some untrue things. Suppressing Amy’s memory wasn’t much different from convincing the two agents that Pierce told them to go to Hondo. Both cases involve changing people’s perception of events.

Consider for a moment if someone gave a person who was very upset over a traumatic event a sedative to calm them. You would know that person had the power to stop someone’s behavior. Consider if a friend of yours died, and you suspected (or didn’t suspect) foul play. If your friend died with no evidence of sedatives in his or her system, then you would have no reason to suspect that your friend was murdered by another who could administer sedatives.

Likewise, there was no evidence for Max, Michael, Isabel, Liz, or Maria that Alex had ever been mindwarped. No medical evidence pointed in that direction. Most everyone, except Liz and Kyle, believed that Alex’s death was natural. There was no medical evidence to contradict their belief.

There was evidence from Alex’s teachers and from the delivery guy and from the truck driver that Alex might have been suicidal. Even if Alex didn’t cause his own death, car accidents happen when drivers are distracted. It was reasonable to believe that Alex’s death was natural or possibly a suicide.

Liz believed Alex was murdered. She had knowledge she didn’t share with the others that might have convinced them that Alex could have been murdered. Liz didn’t tell anyone else, not even Maria, that Alex had lived longer in the first timeline. (Possibly Liz felt too guilty about her own responsibility in contributing to Alex’s death, since she had helped change the timeline. Maybe that’s why she didn’t tell anyone else the truth.)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Assuming that Tess could impersonate Isabel so well Alex couldn't see through it is a big assumption. And convincing him never to contact Isabel, Liz, Maria, his parents... it doesn't remotely add up.

I doubt that Tess impersonated Isabel. I think that she possibly mindwarped Alex into thinking Isabel asked him to do the alien translation secretly using the super computer at Las Cruces. I also like the suggestion that Alex did the translation as a surprise for Isabel.

Alex would understand that he needed to pretend to others that he was in Sweden, so no one who might watch the podsters in Roswell would realize what he was doing. That’s also why Alex assumed the identity of Ray in Las Cruces. A different identity would keep anyone at the computer center from connecting Alex’s work to the podsters.

While in Las Cruces, Alex would correspond with everyone, as though he were in Sweden. He would expect everyone else, including Isabel, to correspond with him in the same manner. Isabel, if she communicated with him by email, would believe Alex really was in Sweden and would write to Alex accordingly.

Alex would correspond with Isabel and everyone else, including his parents, as though he was in Sweden, too, so that anyone reading their email would believe Alex was in Sweden. Alex wouldn’t know that Isabel didn’t know he was in Las Cruces. (That's if Tess mindwarped Alex into thinking that Isabel asked him to secretly do the translating. If Alex did it as a surprise for Isabel, then he would know that Isabel didn't know where he really was.)

Alex would be maintaining the Sweden ruse, while he was in Las Cruces, and he would expect Isabel and all the others to maintain the idea that he was in Sweden, also.

[ 12-29-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ]

[~*Sonia E.*~]

Let's not forget Liz's help in changing the timeline in TEOTW, whether he disappeared or not. What could the others do if Liz told them about FMax or not?

Were the others that smart to know that Tess was going to be the evil murderer that killed Alex? Was Max going to know that Tess was mindwarping Alex all that time? Max didn't even know when Tess was mindwarping him half the time?

I would have loved to see the outcome if Liz would have told Max about FMax. Let's see how smart the others would have been if Liz had given them the information. Maybe Tess would have left town like she did anyway and Alex would have lived.

[Mariarulesalways2]

I have to say that one of the biggest problems that I 've always had with the whole scenario of Tess as the mastermind is that,while maybe Tess could've technically done everything she's supposed to have done,she went to an incredible amount of trouble and effort for something that Alex probably would have done
gladly on his own ( I mean, why wouldn't he help Isabel and Co. out)? And what she's supposed to have done is so incredibly intricate and complicated for just one person who has to hide everything she does from everybody she knows and the people she lives with,fight enemies on a regular basis and go to school and keep up with her homework...Geez,maybe that's why she snapped [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Seriously, I've never bought it and hopefully, any new Roswell will clear Tess's name.
As far as her actions in Off the Menu, I agree that while it might not have been the best course of a ction,they were under a lot of time pressure and needed a quick solution. It might be fun to see them deal with their guilt about that at some point.
Finally,speaking of Tess's powers,whatever happened to the matter reconstruction abilities she had in "Tess,Lies and Videotape"? Then there's her briefly glimpsed pyrokinetic abilities...I guess you could make a case for the idea that,as a Queen,she would be extremely powerful...

Best wishes,

Scott

[fetch]

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: <STRONG> Alex, however, didn’t have the source material for the translation. Max had the book that Nasedo and Tess concocted to convince Max, Isabel, and Michael to pair up and produce children for Kivar. They didn’t know the book was fake. (The book had some real alien symbols and it had the Antar V-shaped symbol.) The audience knows that the so-called “Destiny Book” wasn’t the source for the translation, because the book had drawings and some symbols on a few pages. The translation, in contrast, had many pages of close type. Tess evidently had the source material for the translation, so Alex couldn’t have decided on his own to do the translation as a surprise, unless he had access to the source material. Max had hidden the purported alien book Tess once had in the podchamber, so Alex couldn’t have used that. Tess could have told Alex about the source material, and then he could have decided on his own to translate it as a surprise for Isabel. That idea would work, I think. Thank you for your ideas, Ladeia!</STRONG>

Er... what are you talking about? What makes you think the destiny book was made by Tess and Nacedo? We dod'nt know what the symbols means; they could be each a letter, a word, or even a sentance. That's why Tess and the others couldn't translate it themselves but needed complicated software for it.

[Citrus and Vine]

from fetch: Er... what are you talking about? What makes you think the destiny book was made by Tess and Nacedo? We dod'nt know what the symbols means; they could be each a letter, a word, or even a sentance. That's why Tess and the others couldn't translate it themselves but needed complicated software for it.

Maybe each symbol could be a letter, a word, or even a sentence. However, there are few symbols in the book, compared to the number of sentences in the stack of pages.

Some of the symbols are used more than once, so the symbols seemed to be words or letters, rather than complete sentences. (Each sentence in the translation on the top page is different in content from the other sentences in the translation.)

To me, the so-called Destiny Book has too few pages and too few different symbols to produce the volume of pages and different sentences contained in the translation.






the top page of the stack of pages of the translation


The reason Alex had to use a super computer to do the translation was that Nasedo hadn’t taught Tess how to read Antarian. The Antarians who sent the podsters intended for the guardians sent along on the trip to teach the podsters to read Anrtarian language. (Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother wanted them to return to Antar to free them, after they killed the enemies on Earth. So the podsters would need to know how to read Antarian, so they could work effectively to free Antar, when they returned.)

The book Tess had Max see her take from the library wall was small, with few pages. The book had pictures of the podsters. There was no reason for the people who sent the podsters to send pictures. The podsters could look at in a mirror to see what they looked like.




The so-called Destiny Book had pictures of the podsters to convince Max, Michael, and Isabel that Tess was one of them. It also had pregnancy pictures to convince Michael and Isabel, and Max to pair up and have children.


The book had pictures of Max, Michael, and Isabel, when they were younger. Tess knew what Isabel and Max looked like as kids, because Mrs. Evans showed her pictures of them.


The picture of Michael in the book had his current hair style. There would be no way for the people who sent the podsters to know what hair style Michael would wear. Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree. People in that time didn’t wear their hair the way Michael had his hair styled.



Kivar wanted children from Max and Isabel. He needed a lineal royal heir to legitimatize his rule on Antar. Kivar made a deal with Nasedo, so Nasedo would raise the podsters to produce royal heirs and return with their children to Antar. Nasedo didn’t teach Tess, Max, Michael, or Isabel to read their own language, because he wanted to control them. He didn’t want them to be able to go to Antar on their own, without fulfilling his deal with Kivar.


screencaps from Momo’s Roswell and Roswell Screen Grab Galleries

[ 12-30-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ]

[Roswelldesertsky]

Citrus and Vine I agree with you about the Destiny Book,but if you're right, outher question will be created.

One of them says,Nacedo cannot be sure if Max,Isabel and Michael are the real missing royal three,that's why he didn't come and tell them about their destiny straight away.But how could he not know?There are pictures of everyone in the destiny book.


Michael's hair style: Why could they not know that?Maybe they knew their tastes!I know that sounds not very convincing, but it's the only explanation there could be.

[ 12-31-2003: Message edited Roswelldesertsky ]

[AlexEvans]

I think these explanations are attempts to go back and make things fit later events. They're very good attempts at this, assuming the timeline works out (I'm assuming Citrus is right that Tess saw the videos with Mrs Evans before she and Kyle got the book). I just don't believe that the Tess betrayal plotline had been planned out this far in advance, when there were no real indications previous to OTM. I think you're giving the writers too much credit in how they implemented their stupidest decision ever.

[img]smilies/abduct.gif[/img] [img]smilies/read.gif[/img]

[fetch]

By the way- when did Tess mindwarp Max? o.0 I seem to have watched a different show.

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: <STRONG> Maybe each symbol could be a letter, a word, or even a sentence. However, there are few symbols in the book, compared to the number of sentences in the stack of pages. </STRONG>

Well, we don't know what eich ymbol means, so we don't know if the book was too short or not. There are many words and even sentances that are repeated in the message- destiny, Granolith, etc. Plus, the printed version wasn't really long. I don't recall seeing how long it was, but it looked like two printed pages, maybe three or four. Not a lot. And the book was several pages, including the pictures.

As for the pictures, well, apparently they knew what they'll do. For example, the destiny thing- Tess knew Michael and Isabel were having dreams about each other. They were probably programmed to. Oterwise, just chalk it up to the writers for not thinking that Michael could change his haircut [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Citrus and Vine]

[img]smilies/wave.gif[/img] fetch

from fetch: Well, we don't know what each symbol means, so we don't know if the book was too short or not. There are many words and even sentences that are repeated in the message- destiny, Granolith, etc. Plus, the printed version wasn't really long. I don't recall seeing how long it was, but it looked like two printed pages, maybe three or four. Not a lot. And the book was several pages, including the pictures.

The translation was more than three or four pages.

Here is a picture of the translation.
As you can see, there are more than three or four pages.

You can verify the number of pages in the translation by watching Baby It’s You or Who Died and Made You King. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Citrus and Vine]

from fetch: As for the pictures, well, apparently they knew what they'll do. For example, the destiny thing- Tess knew Michael and Isabel were having dreams about each other. They were probably programmed to.

Actually, Tess mindwarped Michael and Isabel into thinking they simulataneously dreamed the exact same dream about each other. (In Destiny, Tess mindwarped the two agents simultaneously, so the audience knows that Tess can simultaneously mindwarp people.)

Nasedo and Tess made up the so-called Destiny Book. Nasedo was responsible for the book idea that Max and Tess should produce a child, and Michael and Isabel should produce a child. Nasedo was carrying out his deal with Kivar, who needed a lineal royal heir to legitimatize his rule.

Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother said that she wanted to hold both her children, Max and Isabel, in her arms again. She said nothing about grandchildren.

The podsters’ intended mission was to defeat the enemies who had come to Earth, and then free Antar. Children would have been an encumbrance. Children would have distracted from the mission. Only Kivar wanted the podsters to produce children. Max and Isabel’s mother said nothing about them getting pregnant or producing children.

[ 01-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ]

[sHobhnA GuerIn CRAZY CANDY]

Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: <STRONG> The picture of Michael in the book had his current hair style. There would be no way for the people who sent the podsters to know what hair style Michael would wear. Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree. People in that time didn’t wear their hair the way Michael had his hair styled. ]</STRONG>

i like what you said here, i absolutely agree. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]