Roswell - RBI # 5 : The sci-fi in Roswell - Page 7

xmag · 06-04-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

the Dupe!Zan and Ava, who were supposed to remember Antar, were together,

What do you make of dupe Ava's statement about how Zan was waiting for someone else ? If they remembered their lives and were together, then why wasn't dupe Zan really happy with dupe Ava ?

Misha · 06-04-2006, 02:20 PM

Hey guys!! Interesting stuff going on here

shapeshifter, I think dupe Zan was cool too!

What I like about him is that self-confidence that Max seemed to lack for a while there. Zan knew his place, and take no crap from no one. Why did Zan suspect that the Summit might have been a trap, I have no idea. But he was right...

As to xmag's question about why would Zan be waiting someone else, I think it is a little unfair to expect the hybrids to pick up where their past lives ended.

I don't know what the Antarians were thinking when this plan was invisioned. Maybe the hybrids were supposed to remember their past lives -at least to some degree- from the moment they emerged. Maybe they were supposed to emerge as adults. Who knows, but I can't get my mind around the idea that Max and co. and dupe Zan and co. were the original Zan and co.

For instance, this dupe Vilandra and her ambitions contradict Michael's memory about alien Vilandra wanting peace, and helping Khivar because he had lied to her. Now, the politics of Antar, plus the character's motivations and personalities are mostly vague. We can make almost any scenario and it still will fit. But all that aside, I think dupe Zan had the same feeling that Max about having to follow what a book/person says. He didn't like things being imposed.

These memories that he has are probably vague, about a man he's not, about a woman that Ava is not either. For all we know, dupe Zan was waiting for someone who was more like the Ava he remembered than the dupe Ava he had in front, who had her own personality and her own expectations as well.

My last problem with the whole memory theory is that memories are deceiving. They change, adapt, and we reshape them as time passes. That's a fact for us, at least. Dupe Vilandra was a very ambitious woman, and she certainly remembered being with Khivar and -apparently- with Nikolas too. But maybe her ambitious side was a "human" trait, which she could definitely exploit knowing her previous position as Khivar's lover.

Crap, I'm being called...

I'll be back soon!

Misha

miss3cris · 06-04-2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misha

As to xmag's question about why would Zan be waiting someone else, I think it is a little unfair to expect the hybrids to pick up where their past lives ended.

I don't know what the Antarians were thinking when this plan was invisioned. Maybe the hybrids were supposed to remember their past lives -at least to some degree- from the moment they emerged. Maybe they were supposed to emerge as adults. Who knows, but I can't get my mind around the idea that Max and co. and dupe Zan and co. were the original Zan and co.

...But all that aside, I think dupe Zan had the same feeling that Max about having to follow what a book/person says. He didn't like things being imposed.

These memories that he has are probably vague, about a man he's not, about a woman that Ava is not either. For all we know, dupe Zan was waiting for someone who was more like the Ava he remembered than the dupe Ava he had in front, who had her own personality and her own expectations as well.

My last problem with the whole memory theory is that memories are deceiving. They change, adapt, and we reshape them as time passes. That's a fact for us, at least.

I completely agree with you. I think you're right to say that the memories are deceptive and that they sometimes manipulated the R4. I also like your take on Zan.

Although I do believe that the memories of A!Z/A's love influenced M/T to start a romantic relationship with each other, I also think that, as I said of M/L's relationship and Misha pointed out in an earlier post, the memories gave them a false sense of intimacy. They went from 0 to 100, from just a kiss to sex to planning a future together, in like a week. They weren't ready for that amount of pressure on a relationship, but the intimacy that A!Z/A (I assume) legitimately earned by going through the steps needed to establish respect, communication, and other building blocks of a lasting relationship made them feel like they could do it.

They had some key moments together recalling their past lives, but Misha's right to say that that had little to do w/ their present lives. I just think for Tess, living such a lonely life with Nacedo as she did, that the memories were the only warmth she knew in this life making the life they recalled attractive to her and worth attempting to recreate and for Max, who at the time felt alienated from his present life, that the memories represented answers and possibilities that he hadn't considered for himself which is why he was beginning to want to pursue something with Tess. This is why I put emphasis on the memories in explaining M/T's relationship. For me, A!Z/A's past love was the draw for M/T and the reason they came together under the circumstances, but it was never the glue and the memories didn't hold them together.

Perhaps if D!Zan had lived he would've left D!Ava or she him because s/he would've realized that they were only together because of a past love that is ultimately not their love or maybe they would've gotten pass relying on A!Z/A and built a relationship from their shared background in this life. Perhaps this was what Zan was looking for? We'll never know.

Misha · 06-04-2006, 08:24 PM

Okay, back

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Perhaps if D!Zan had lived he would've left D!Ava or she him because s/he would've realized that they were only together because of a past love that is ultimately not their love or maybe they would've gotten pass relying on A!Z/A and built a relationship from their shared background in this life.

miss3criss, I can definitely see that one coming, even for Max and Tess had Liz not been in the picture, or if she had left the picture for good. (granted, I can't picture Max with anyone else but Liz, but for the sake of argument...

)

The problem with M/T's relationship was that everything was pushing towards it. Tess was expecting it, Liz was expecting it -by pushing him towards her-, heck, an entire planet was expecting it somewhere

Had Max and Tess met under other circumstances, would they still have ended up together? Who knows, but I don't think there was something on Tess or Max that made them recognize each other as Zan/Ava. There were the dreams, of course, but... They are their own persons. The possibility is there, sure, but so is with every other girl and guy on the planet

Now, I don't think that M/L's relationship was the way you described it. I'm not saying this because I'm a Dreamer, just because I don't think it was. I think Max was in love of the illusion of Liz Parker in the beginning. A crush. A ten year crush... who became his lab partner. They probably were casual friends at best, but at least they got to know something about each other. About the way the talked, their friends. Their views.

Max was lucky enough that Liz did turn out to be his dreamgirl -because Liz could have turned out to be anything- and without the shooting I don't think Liz would have had a clue about Max's feelings.

Where I disagree with you is in the importance of the flashes to their relationship. We know they hardly ever happened. Sure, Max got a flash saving Liz, and then made it go back -making Liz know what Max felt- but they never happened again until briefly in Blind Date, and then in Sexual Healing, and that was only from Max's side, who was seeing her.

I don't believe that Liz stayed with Max because he saved her. I think that brought them together, yes, but that they did get to know each other after that. Max was afraid that deep down Liz would think of him as a monster, he said so to her, until he saw on a flash that it wasn't true. So, if anything, the flashes helped them to overcome this "barrier". They both had every right to doubt the other for the obvious reason of fear of the alien aspect of their relationship.

Were they immature? Hoped too fast too soon? Were caught up into "you are my soul-mate" thing? Hell, yeah, but as I once heard: "At sixteen, is always the real thing". They were teenages. There were a lot of things they didn't know, and things they didn't know how to handle. Of course they ended up lying and hurting each other. It was only natural. But the circumstances under all that happened were way over their heads, let alone their experience.

But they knew each other. They knew each other outside the alien aspect. The "connection", the flashes, were this something else that came oout of Max's alien side, okay, but it wasn't a base to their relationship. They didn't relay on those experiences to say "oh, so now I really know you". If anything, it was more of a "now I really accept you as you are". It has to take a lot of trust to know that someone can know really intimate things by just touching you, and still want to be touched by that person.

So, they made a lot of mistakes while attempting to love each other, and protect each other. Where they a healthy couple? I don't know what that means -really, I'm not kidding, I don't know- but I do believe they tried to work it out one way or the other. They both had a tendency to bottle things up, not only from each other, but from the world as well, but sooner or later, they always told the other what was going on. Maybe not in the best, rational, healthy way, but they did.

They worked hard for each other. Things fell apart when Liz thought she couldn't be with Max -and here comes Sean- and when Max thought he couldn't be with Liz -and here comes Tess. Had they had any hope left that they could be with each other, they would have taken it faster than light.

Getting married definitely did not resolve all of that if they forgot they had a past. But for me, that they got married meant that they worked it out and decided to have a future together. It was way too rushed, and they were way too young, but after saving the world and escaping alien and government conspiracies, I think I would have gotten married ASAP as well...

If anything, those kids knew just too well that "life is short."

Now I think I have ranted again... sorry guys!

Misha

xmag · 06-05-2006, 04:08 AM

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Max was lucky enough that Liz did turn out to be his dreamgirl -because Liz could have turned out to be anything- and without the shooting I don't think Liz would have had a clue about Max's feelings.

I don't believe that Liz stayed with Max because he saved her. I think that brought them together, yes, but that they did get to know each other after that.

I don't believe that Liz stayed with Max because he saved her. She fell in love with him because he was him, not because he gave her flashes.

Misha · 06-05-2006, 07:03 AM

Definitely!

Now back to work... sighs...

Misha

shapeshifter · 06-05-2006, 09:39 PM

I'm so glad that once again we have the ability to save more than one page of a thread in the print view, because this is really interesting stuff that I will want to read later.

About the flashes in Season One.
I think they were symbolic of the intense feelings that teens have for those to whom they are attracted.

The flashes at the end of Season Three were on a different level of experience.

xmag · 06-07-2006, 06:01 AM

You know, talking about flashes, someone posted on the gazer thread part of the A/I scene, where Isabel talks to Alex, about kissing him, her brother being MIA. Before leaving, she says something which implied that she saw something, but not something which could help finding her brother.

Did you understand it this way ?

Misha · 06-07-2006, 07:11 AM

Yep! Definitely!!

Quote:

(Alex steps over to Isabel and kisses her)

ISABEL: Nothing.

ALEX: Oh.

ISABEL: Nothing relevant to the current crisis.

ALEX: Sorry.

ISABEL: Ok.

So, one of two things: She *did* have a flash about something "irrelevant" and keep it to herself, or she was just teasing Alex

But, IMO, I believe she did see something, which would be interesting, because it could imply that Isabel is better at getting flashes than Max and Michael, who seem to have them rather randomly. Or it might have been just Isabel's luck

Misha

shapeshifter · 06-07-2006, 09:42 PM

I interpreted it to mean she felt something rather than nothing in the sense that she found the kiss pleasurable. She said it was an experiment. So I thought that meant she was wondering if she could get flashes like Liz did, but by "Nothing" she meant that she didn't get a flash.

Reggie · 06-11-2006, 10:59 AM

It seems to me that, since Isabel was able to receive images from others' dreams, she'd be more receptive to flashes from others. Of course, she didn't have anyone to get flashes from, so she wouldn't be getting them. Until she kissed Alex, of course; and I understood her to mean that she did get something, just not something "relevent to the current crisis" (Max).

ITA with Shapeshifter: saving the thread & writing replies offline is useful.

Reggie · 06-11-2006, 11:29 AM

I just looked, and the "show all on one page" option sems to be gone.

shapeshifter · 06-11-2006, 03:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Reggie

I just looked, and the "show all on one page" option sems to be gone.

Gone but not forgotten: RBI Threads

xmag · 06-14-2006, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggie

It seems to me that, since Isabel was able to receive images from others' dreams, she'd be more receptive to flashes from others. Of course, she didn't have anyone to get flashes from, so she wouldn't be getting them. Until she kissed Alex, of course; and I understood her to mean that she did get something, just not something "relevent to the current crisis" (Max).

Ditto on that one. Her powers were more mental so it would make sense that getting flashes would be a walk in the park, for her. I always understood that she had gotten flashes from Alex, but not flashes that could help her in the current crisis, aka finding her missing brother.

Do you think that flashes could be a way of communication, for aliens ? And worse, too, because the aliens could mindrape, meaning they could extract informations from someone's head. They did a lot things mentally so communicating through flashes doesn't seem so far-fetched.

Reggie · 06-18-2006, 02:28 PM

I don't think flashes could communicate enough to be really useful, like a shoping list or anything. More like what we get from a "hunch"; I've learned to trust my hunches both because they save me when I do, and because I could kick myself when I don't (and trouble follows!).