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| #76 | |||
| Loyal Fan   Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,525
| I have enjoyed reading the comments about the podsters interpersonal relationships with each other!  Thank you!miss3cris, you say that the idea of a Nasedo pact is bad writing. I disagree. I think Nasedo’s claim of a pact with Kivar explains important things in the story. For me, the fact that Nasedo told Tess that he had made a deal with Kivar 40 years ago explains Nasedo’s plans and behavior towards the Royal Four. It explains to me why Tess led the others to the podchamber, without telling Nasedo. It explains to me why Tess wanted them to remember that she was one of them. It explains to me why Tess told Nasedo in the podchamber that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family, and not Nasedo. It explains to me why Nasedo hadn’t told Tess that he had killed people. For me, Nasedo’s actions, beginning with leaving Atherton’s body in plain view for humans to find, was explained with Tess’ revelation at the end of Season Two, in The Departure that Nasedo told Tess he made a deal with Kivar, 40 years ago. I agree with miss3cris and Misha that Tess fell in love with Max. Even people, who are in love with each other for many years, may one day learn things about the other person that turns them against the person they once loved. Max fell out of love with Tess, when he learned that she had killed Alex. Tess fell out of love with Max, when Max defended Liz and didn’t stand up for Tess in the Granilith chamber. Then Tess believed Nasedo’s lie that Kivar was her ally. She didn’t remember that Kivar had murdered her. Tess had no way of knowing whether or not Nasedo had been lying to her about Kivar. She had only her heart to follow. Max’s betrayal of her love, by kissing Liz and not apologizing to Tess for hurting her, and his betrayal of Tess’ love, by defending Liz, instead of standing up for Tess in the Granlith chamber, convinced Tess that Kivar was her ally. 40 years earlier, Nasedo began his silver handprint murders, in order to locate Max (King Zan), who healed people, leaving a silver handprint. If Nasedo had known where the podsters were 40 years earlier, then he could have handed the Royal Four over to Kivar in 1959. Nasedo eventually found Tess 30 years later. But Nasedo couldn’t find the other three Royals, until an additional 10 years later, after Max healed Liz, leaving a silver handprint. The Skins and Nasedo weren’t allies. They didn’t work together. They had different objectives. The Skins wanted the Granilith. Nasedo wanted the Royal Four captured by humans. Although Nasedo told Tess things about Kivar, and the Skins told the Royal Four things about Kivar, the Skins and Nasedo weren’t allies. The Skins and Nasedo had their own agendas. They both knew about Kivar, but they didn’t work with each other. I think an essential part of Roswell is the importance of recognizing and dealing with abuse. Your life may depend on recognizing abuse. In the series Roswell, the main characters tolerated abuse against themselves, which is dangerous and wrong. Michael had been abused in childhood by Hank, his foster parent. For Michael, and for many other kids, abuse is sometimes tolerated, because kids have no place else to go. Michael didn’t want anyone to know that he had been abused by Hank. When Nasedo blasted Michael and treated Michael poorly, Michael recognized that Nasedo wasn’t who he thought he would be. Despite reports that Nasedo had murdered people over many years, Michael had held out the hope that Nasedo would care about him. People want and need love. The Antarians also had the concept of love. The Antarians cared about love and relationships and freedom, which are important values for humans, too. Kal’s behavior towards Max, and Nasedo’s behavior towards Michael and Max were wrong and unacceptable behaviors for subordinates or for superiors, whether in the military or not. Abuse is wrong. It’s been suggested that the Royal Four had been spoiled brats on Antar. Abusing spoiled brats is also wrong. Abusing anyone is wrong. It’s been suggested that Kal and Nasedo were slaves. But Kal and Nasedo weren’t slaves. Kal and Nasedo could do anything they wanted, as long as they avoided Max (King Zan). Only if Kal or Nasedo directly and personally interfered in Max (King Zan)’s life, did they have to obey Max. As long as they didn’t interfere directly and personally in the life of King Zan (Max), they could do anything they wanted. Nasedo didn’t tell the Royal Four about the Granilith or how to operate it. Nasedo didn’t teach them their language or how to decode the book. Those things show that Nasedo had a different plan from what Tess did. Tess wanted to be with her group. Tess thought that the group needed Nasedo to protect them from humans. She didn’t know that Nasedo wanted her and the others to be captured by humans. Tess thought that Nasedo was her own personal protector. MAX (explaining to Liz about a sheet of paper): It was buried among Tess' things. It's a letter Nasedo wrote to her before he died. It says, "I am your one and only protector on this planet. "I'll protect you until the end. "If I ever die, this is our only way to communicate with our home." Nasedo didn’t tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the ship or the diamond key needed to operate it. Nasedo didn’t write down for Tess the exact location of the ship or the location of the diamond key. Nasedo wasn’t Tess protector. He wasn’t Max, Michael, or Isabel’s protector, either. Nasedo was the podsters’ enemy. Fortunately, after Nasedo returned to Roswell, Max ordered him not to kill anyone. As a result, Whitaker was able to fatally wound Nasedo, before he could carry out his plan to capture the Royal Four again. ______________________________________  ___________________________Last edited by Citrus and Vine : 05-23-2006 at 06:07 PM. | |||
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| #77 | |||
| Loyal Fan Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,525
| sorry, double post  Last edited by Citrus and Vine : 05-23-2006 at 01:05 PM. | |||
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| #78 | |||
| Extreme Fan  Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,613
| Well, I'm having a slight headache, and it's cold here... so I'll try to not rant too much  Good points, miss3criss. I don't believe the NasedoPact was real either, but when I'm discussing other things aside of it, I like to see how it could have been if it had been real or not  Anyway, I do think Tess cared about Max, if only for the slight doubt she had in Departure, when she was double thinking her plan, and asked Max if he was sure to do this. And gosh, is that girl jealous or what? Okay, that was a rant...  I do think that Tess was letting go of the idea of ever winning Max's grace (and if FMax hand't come, then.... yeah...) but when Max lost all that stability, as you pointed out, she was pretty much all he had left. I do believe Max cared about Tess. That he did start to see her as a friend. But had Alex not died and all the mess that brought to everyone's lives he wouldn't have slept with her. I'll give you that Max was attracted to her (that's a stretch to me, but I can see it... barely... there.... sure...  ) but from that point -caring- to the other -loving-, nope. Too many circumstances play in that, which has always led me to believe that Tess didn't plan it all. Sure, she could have had her plan on her mind but, for me, if Tess was after the NasedoPact or whatever pact and had her own agenda, then she did set some things in motion, but she majorly -and skillfully- played with the circumstances that were unfolding.But that's another rant, I guess... Why was Max so attracted to her? We know in the beginning Tess did mindwarp him, and that Max had been having the "dreams" with her too. But that doesn't prove anything, except that it had upseted Max. Was there more to it? I vaguely remember someone pointing out that, physical differences aside, Tess and Liz were alike. They both had strong characters, were smart, stuff like that. So I can see Max being friends with Tess. Who knows, maybe if Liz had never been in the picture... The other thing that I think jeopardized Max and Tess was the fact that Max didn't want to follow the book. Tess was suddenly imposed on him. Add to that those dreams, "day-dreams", the constant "we are meant to be" and well... I would have run for the hills as well I completely agree with your description of Michael and Isabel's reactions. Now, if Max and Tess had grown up as siblings, or as close as Michael and Isabel did, would that kind of attraction sill be there? Maybe this is a nature vrs. nurture debate thing Now I'm falling asleep... and I know I ranted somewhere and that I wanted to say more... but that'll wait... 'night! Misha __________________ There's addiction, and there's Roswell! Roswell and me: All I had was one little sip... and it's not wearing off... | |||
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| #79 | |||
| Elite Fan  Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,972
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When Max was behaving like a king, in the second season, went on a power trip and his sister HAD TO obey to him. That was how it was meant to be, for him. When Michael got the seal, he was all power hungry. Did he talk about Isabel/Vilandra being his beloved, his wife, his fiancee ? No, he said "she was mine". Like his possession. Tess thought she could come back and be the queen but obviously, she had been used as a mother for the heir but had no political role, or power. That doesn't mean that the women didn't want that power, just that it didn't look like they were allowed to rule. 2.) Why do you think that Max/Tess seemed to be more affected by their "destiny" programming while Michael/Isabel were not as affected by it? Was it because Michael/Isabel were raised to believe that they were siblings? Was it because Vilandra/Rath didn't love each other while Zan/Ava did? Other reasons?[/quote] The fact that Michael and Isabel were raised almost together certainly played a huge part. In Crazy, I believe, Isabel is talking to Alex and mentioned Michael as her brother. In MTTM, Maria learns about the pregnancy and questioned Michael "you always said Isabel was your sister". So I think it explained why they never went for their destiny. Of course, we learned later on that Isabel, as Vilandra, was in love with Khivar and might have had an affair with Nicolas. And that king Michael considered her as his possession. So the Rath/Vilandra relationship could have been sexual, or based on politic, who knows. Tess and Max, hmm, if we believe the episode "off the menu", it's possible that Zan was attracted to Ava, but I don't remember anything about love. But I remember thinking that HOW Zan met Ava for the first time looked like a set up for the young king. How many couples meet while the woman is bathing, almost naked, in a beautiful sea, in a romantic place ? Quote:
So what he really wanted was answers. Once he got that, he was free, in a way, to do what he wanted with his private life. And at that time, being in a relationship wasn't what mattered, his duty as a soldier mattered, nothing else. Quote:
__________________ - Michael & Maria - a CONNECTION, a CHEMISTRY, they have it... they're one of the hottest couple on tv (David Nutter, director) - Michael and Maria belong together (Thania St John, writer) Icon : ? | |||
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| #80 | |||
| Passionate Fan  Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,774
| Just a quick post. I think the reason Max was more affected by his "Destiny" than was Michael is because Max had King-sized hormones. LOL If you still want more symbol stuff, try here. __________________ | |||
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| #81 | |||
| Extreme Fan Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,750
| C&V: If Kivar had left the Skins on Earth with a spaceship or with the material and the expertise to build a spaceship, then the Skins wouldn’t all have been as good as dead, after their husks were destroyed. If the Skins had been in good standing with Kivar, they could have been rescued by Kivar, after Courtney destroyed their new husks. But the Skins knew that Kivar wouldn’t rescue them, and they knew they had no way off Earth, without the Granilith. That’s why they needed the Granilith. Thus, we know that the Skins were Kivar’s enemies, as well as enemies (with the exception of Courtney to Michael) of the Royal Four. Horsefeathers! K'var probably sent Nikolas and the Skins here with orders to find the Royals and the Granolyth, or don't bother coming back. Leaving them stranded just underlined the not-coming-back part. Cruel? Despotic? Duh!  miss3cris: First, I don't think that the human raised R4 was more wise or mature. (...) In fact, in the end, he (Max) and the others proved to be very unconcerned with the important roles they had on their home planet preferring their human lives and that was not a mature or leader-like decision, imo. Fair enough. But then again, Max & his R4 are about 17 years old. Less, if you figure they were hatched at an appearent age of 5; they'd have only a dozen years of experience. The Dupes have that, plus a lifetime of training and experience on Antar; and they are invested in that life in a way that the NM R4 can never be. Would you get involved in some Byzantine alien civil war, just on someone else's sayso?  Second, I think the fact that Max/Isabel/Michael were raised by humans was a complete accident. Nasedo makes it clear that he lost them. They hatched earlier or Tess hatched late but he had intended to raise all four of them. I disagree, in part because Max and Tess were intended to resume their lives as husband and wife. Had they been raised together, they would have felt as siblings, and the proposed relationship would have been incestuous. Note how Michael and Isabel felt about their betrothal. I believe that Mr. Harding was intended to raise the mindwarping child at a safe distance fom a susceptible humanity. Tic-tac was intended to play "guardian angel" while Max, Michael, and Isabel were raised by human parents who would teach them to be good people, perhaps better than the Dupes. Mr. H. may have lost track of them, but the R3 were not unguarded. There was obviously something wrong with the original R4. They weren't the sweet and lightness that commoners (like Courtney and Whitaker) were told they were. And a rebirth, and re-raising, by non-royal parents, in a less Byzantine environment, might be an improvement. Worth a try, anyway; since that option is availible. And thus, you get the two R4s. Misha: I don't see a Rebellion forming, maintaining and still fighting 50 years later if their rulers were idiots, or spoiled brats (is it spoilt? sorry, English is my second language... ). This Rebellion is strong enough for Khivar to want to come heremin search of them, play the Summit to make them look bad, try to kill them, etc., etc., etc.. No, this Rebellion wants Khivar out and Zan back. Your English is just fine, Misha. "Spoilt" is rather English, while "spoiled" is rather American, but both are used. (One thing about being a "nation of immigrants" is that we're used to variations in the language. You'd have to mangle it pretty badly for someone not to understand. )There are two sides to this rebellion, and I believe most rebellions. On the one hand, they don't want K'var; on the other, they want Zan back. It's entirely possible that they are mostly interested in getting rid of K'var, and Zan is only a rallying point for the anti-K'var sentment. K'var does not seem to be a particularly good ruler, from what we've seen of him. There has been some thought about whether Zan was the "good guy" or "bad guy" in the original conflict, though. From the way the Dupes treated each other, and other people, I could believe that Zan was a bad ruler, overthrown by someone who seemed better at the time; and that Zan's partisans were more interested in regaining their power than bettering their people. Note Whittaker's comment about "your kind" not ruling any more. I do agree with miss3cris that the plan including being raised by Humans is not coherent. First of all, that would imply a very large understanding of Human nature, and that would lead to "what the hell am I thinking" Well... maybe. But they're playing good odds here. In 1947, the US was the most powerful nation on Earth (we had The Bomb, no one else did). We had no internal restrictions to movement or identity, so new people could appear and move about without problems. If they had turned up in the USSR, Stalin would have had them executed. In China, Mao was a threat. India had Moslem vs. Hindu strife, and Europe was tired and unstable. Dropping the kids off in a small, remote town in the US almost guaranteed that they would be adopted locally, by good and well-off citizens; and would be well protected against revolutions, wars, tyranies, poverty, etc. With Tic-tac monitoring things from a distance, the kids would have been pretty sure of a safe and healthy upbringing. I think the delay in "hatching" was added later, when the Skins arrived. By delaying the R4's appearance, they may have hoped to outwait the Skins. Remember, they had almost expired when the Special Unit turned up the incident with Liz. If Max had stayed invisible until he graduated from high school, the Skins would have probably all been dead. I do believe, though, that Nasedo was tic-tac. Maybe it's a little thin, but Maxsedo's line to Liz that he had been so many people she had no idea works for me and believing he was Margollis, the guy in SH, and the one to kill Hank. Then why two completely different sets of behavior, and the need to be in two diferent places at the same time? E.g., babysitting Tess and being Dr. Margolin, or the person who silenced Hank. Mr. H had undoubtedly impersonated many people over his years on the run. He could have been referring to that. miss3cris: This theory is based on the fact that Kal had to obey Zan, my limited knowledge of the tradition of elite military guard for leaders (i.e. CIA), and Kal's comments about preferring life on Earth to Antar. It says it no where in the show. If you don't want to believe it, fine. But this makes a lot more sense to me than overly complicated theories where we have to disregard almost everything from the show. I believe you've grasped C&V's argument correctly. I do wonder if Kal's hint that he had to obey Max was truthful, and I definitely doubt that it was some sort of "programming". Just assume that he took an oath of allegence to the Crown when he joined the military (or whatever), and still considers himself bound by it as a matter of honor. BTW, the President of the US is guarded by the Secret Service, part of the Treasury Department. They also deal with counterfiters. The CIA is a post-WW2 organization, civilian, and forbidden to take any action on US soil. I believe that the British Royalty and Parliament have military guards. C&V: Nasedo left that symbol in the woods, to test whether or not Max, Michael, and Isabel would respond to the symbol. When they illuminated the symbol, and then erased the symbol, Nasedo then knew that he had finally found the other three of the Royal Four. Until then, Nasedo didn’t know whether or not the reported silver handprint incident in Roswell had been real or a hoax. Nasedo left the symbol as a test. It works better if that was a Skin, possibly a member of Pierce's Special Unit, who thought he'd finally found the R4 (given that the SU knew something funny had happened with Liz). After all, the Special Unit had her uniform and the other info from Sherrif Valenti's office that they confiscated. We know that the Skins were aware of the Special Unit, via Congresswoman Whittaker. A Skin in the Unit would have access to surveilence photos of the kids, the ability to make the symbols, and the distaste for them that burning the photo showed. C&V: If Nasedo had been part of the 1947 mission, then he should have known what Max, Michael, and Isabel looked like and when they would be getting out of their hibernation pods. Knowing what they looked like, or rather what they would look like when they were teenagers, doesn't tell you where they are now. More to the point, he was there to collect Tess, which he did successfully. 40 years earlier, Nasedo began his silver handprint murders, in order to locate Max (King Zan), who healed people, leaving a silver handprint. Do we know this? The Skins have some powers at least; couldn't they have killed leaving a silver handprint? An alien force who didn't know Earth would get into trouble, and have to kill to cover their tracks. Might not a Skin have been questioning Atherton too closely, revealed himself, and had to kill him? __________________ System Error: Please insert backup reality & reboot. Last edited by Reggie : 05-29-2006 at 12:39 PM. | |||
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| #82 | |||
| Loyal Fan Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,525
| Hi Reggie, shapeshifter, xmag, Misha, and everyone!  Reggie, the Dupes were decoys. The Dupes weren’t the real Royal Four. New-York-Zan lacked Max’s force-field shield power. New-York-Zan lacked the desire to help others outside his group. The Dupes weren’t given the Granilith. They didn’t know what the Granilith was, where it was, or what it looked like. The Dupes didn’t know that the Granilith could take people to Antar. The Dupes hadn’t been given the book explaining how to activate the Granilith. Lonnie thought that she could only get to Antar, by telling Nicholas where the Granilith was. She didn’t know that the Granilith could transport people to Antar. Neither Lonnie nor Nicholas knew that neither of them could use the Granilith to go to Antar. Only the real Royal Four could access the Granilith chamber. Only Max (the real King Zan) could activate the Granilith, using the crystal. Again, the Dupes weren’t the real Royal Four. The Dupes lacked the essences and qualities of the real Royal Four. The Dupes hadn’t been and weren’t the Royal Four. The Dupes were decoys. Max was the real King Zan. Max was proven to be the real King Zan. He had the Seal of Antar in his brain, which was verified by the emissary. The Dupes were marked on their upper right arms with matching symbols, to ensure that their group wasn’t placed in front of the Granilith. (For people who may be unfamiliar with fetal surgery, babies, even before they are born, can have surgical procedures performed on them. So, I think that the Dupes were marked, while they were fetuses, with matching symbols, to ensure that their group, which was the decoy group, wouldn’t be placed in the rock formation with the Granilith, since they were decoys and not the real Royal Four.) Reggie, you say you think “…Max and Tess were intended to resume their lives as husband and wife. Had they been raised together, they would have felt as siblings, and the proposed relationship would have been incestuous. Note how Michael and Isabel felt about their betrothal. I believe that Mr. Harding was intended to raise the mindwarping child at a safe distance fom a susceptible humanity. Tic-tac was intended to play "guardian angel" while Max, Michael, and Isabel were raised by human parents who would teach them to be good people, perhaps better than the Dupes. Mr. H. may have lost track of them, but the R3 were not unguarded.” Nasedo framed Michael for Hank’s disappearance. He wasn’t guarding Michael. Nasedo could have murdered the drunken Hank quietly, as Hank slept. Nasedo killed people quickly and quietly, even in broad daylight, when people were awake and nearby, as he did, when he murdered the agent in downtown Roswell. Instead, Nasedo arranged to have the neighbors think that Michael was responsible for Hank’s disappearance. Nasedo staged the loud, agonized cries that the neighbors reported to the Sheriff. Nasedo wanted Michael captured by humans. Nasedo didn’t get Michael out of jail. Nasedo was the Royal Four’s enemy. “Tic-Tac” (Nasedo) couldn’t guard all the Royals at once, with Tess living in one house, Michael living elsewhere, and Max and Isabel together in a different location. If the Evans parents took Max and Isabel to Florida again or to some other place, without telling Nasedo, he would have lost them again. Nasedo also couldn’t guard all four Royals, if Michael had again left Roswell, without telling anyone where he was going. Nasedo wasn’t interested in guarding the Royals. Nasedo’s plan was to get the Royal Four captured by humans. Nasedo (“Tic-Tac”) pretended to be Dr. Margolin, to prevent the Royal Four from getting the second orb from Topolsky. The orbs had been intended for the Royal Four to use. The Dupes had been left as decoys. A signal was activated after the recording was received by the Royal Four The signal triggered alien devices around the world. The triggered signal after the recorded message led enemies and outsiders to the Dupes in the New York sewer, instead of the Royal Four in Roswell. The recorded message warned the Royal Four that their enemies had come to Earth and looked human and would only be known by the evil within. Nasedo was an evil person. He murdered innocent people, like Sheila Hubble. Nasedo began his silver handprint murders in 1959, in order to locate Max (King Zan), whose essential nature was to heal people, leaving a silver handprint. Max’s essential nature was to help others. He healed the wounded pigeon, even though his adoptive mother didn’t want him to. Healing was part of who Max was. Nasedo wanted humans to know about alien silver handprints. Nasedo left his victims’ bodies out in the open, in plain view, with nearby witnesses, because Nasedo wanted humans to help him locate the alien King Zan (Max). Nasedo didn’t know in 1959 that the Royal Four were in hibernation pods in the rock formation. Nasedo couldn’t find the other three royals, until after Max healed Liz, leaving a silver handprint. Nasedo was an enemy. Nasedo framed Max for all the silver handprint murders. If Max hadn’t been captured at the carnival, Max would have been captured later. Nasedo made certain of that, by leaving a silver handprint at the gas station, causing a fire there, and having himself photographed as Max with Liz, and then publicly displaying himself as Max with Liz at the carnival. Nasedo was the Royal Four’s enemy. Nasedo never intended for Tess and Max to be a romantic couple. Max and Tess couldn’t have lived in anonymity on Earth, after Nasedo kidnapped Liz and committed crimes as Max. If Nasedo had wanted Pierce dead, he could have murdered Pierce in Roswell. Nasedo wanted Max and Michael captured. Once they were captured, Nasedo could pretend to be Max or Michael to Tess and Isabel. Then he could get them captured, too. Nasedo didn’t tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the Granilith. Nasedo didn’t translate the book or tell the Royal Four about their people or their planet or about the other planets or about Kivar. Nasedo didn’t tell the Royal Four the exact location of the spaceship or the diamond key needed to operate it, in case he died. Nasedo was the Royal Four’s enemy. Nasedo’s schemes failed, because Max, Michael, and Isabel had good human friends, who rescued them. _________________________________ ________________________Last edited by Citrus and Vine : 05-29-2006 at 06:37 PM. | |||
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| Extreme Fan Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,750
| Citrus and Vine: Reggie, the Dupes were decoys. The Dupes weren’t the real Royal Four. New-York-Zan lacked Max’s force-field shield power. New-York-Zan lacked the desire to help others outside his group. The Dupes weren’t given the Granilith. They didn’t know what the Granilith was, where it was, or what it looked like. The Dupes didn’t know that the Granilith could take people to Antar. The Dupes hadn’t been given the book explaining how to activate the Granilith. Lonnie thought that she could only get to Antar, by telling Nicholas where the Granilith was. She didn’t know that the Granilith could transport people to Antar. Neither Lonnie nor Nicholas knew that neither of them could use the Granilith to go to Antar. Only the real Royal Four could access the Granilith chamber. Only Max (the real King Zan) could activate the Granilith, using the crystal. We don't know these. Zan may not have had time to put up his force-field before he was hit; that's why Lonnie surprised him. The original King Zan may not have been very benevolant, either; reports differ. No one was "given" the Granolyth; no one knew where it was. It's easier to park it in the empty desert than downtown New York City. (Have you ever been to NYC? It's a madhouse!) We don't know what the Dupes knew about the Granolyth, we only have Lonnie's offhand comment that it was some sort of religious thing. I believe that she was lying, to convince Max to give the"useless" thing up; knowing how useful it would be. The Dupes would not need a book to tell them what they already remembered. Furthermore, even given that Lonnie had the Granolyth and key, she'd still have to land on Antar safely. Planetary defenses, given the war, should be expected! Getting through would probably require K'var's permission, which means getting a pass code from Nikolas; i.e., he'd have to come along home. And how do you know that only Max (or Max and Zan) could use the Granolyth key? Again, the Dupes weren’t the real Royal Four. The Dupes lacked the essences and qualities of the real Royal Four. The Dupes hadn’t been and weren’t the Royal Four. The Dupes were decoys. Max was the real King Zan. Max was proven to be the real King Zan. He had the Seal of Antar in his brain, which was verified by the emissary. Zan wasn't tested; you don't know that he wouldn't have passed. And the Dupes gave every indication of fully remembering their past lives. Nasedo framed Michael for Hank’s disappearance. He wasn’t guarding Michael. Nasedo could have murdered the drunken Hank quietly, as Hank slept. Nasedo killed people quickly and quietly, even in broad daylight, when people were awake and nearby, as he did, when he murdered the agent in downtown Roswell. Instead, Nasedo arranged to have the neighbors think that Michael was responsible for Hank’s disappearance. Nasedo staged the loud, agonized cries that the neighbors reported to the Sheriff. Nasedo wanted Michael captured by humans. Nasedo didn’t get Michael out of jail. Nasedo was the Royal Four’s enemy. You don't read much detective fiction, do you? The noise at Hank's was intended to mark the time of his death, precisely because Michael had an alibi for that time! He stayed with Hank, or was alone, most of the time. This once, he had reliable witnesses for an alibi. And Hank had to die, and soon, because Michael had revealed his powers and Hank wasn't OK with that. IMHO, Tic-tac dropped by in the form of Michael to see how the wind blew, and was confronted by Hank about "his" powers. Otherwise, "Michael" would have gone to bed, and appearently left before Hank got up the next morning. “Tic-Tac” (Nasedo) couldn’t guard all the Royals at once, with Tess living in one house, Michael living elsewhere, and Max and Isabel together in a different location. If the Evans parents took Max and Isabel to Florida again or to some other place, without telling Nasedo, he would have lost them again. Right; there were TWO shapeshifters. One (Mr. Harding) looked after Tess, who (as a mindwarper) needed special handling. The other (Tic-tac) looked after the three in Roswell. The Evans were professionals,with a law practice, so they were not likely to move anywhere suddenly. We don't know what Hank did before Mrs. G went away. He may have been stable, too. Anyway, he didn't look like he was likely to leave suddenly. A signal was activated after the recording was received by the Royal Four The signal triggered alien devices around the world. The triggered signal after the recorded message led enemies and outsiders to the Dupes in the New York sewer, instead of the Royal Four in Roswell. Except that the signal actually pointed to Roswell, as Brody told Maria. Nasedo didn’t tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the Granilith. Nasedo didn’t translate the book or tell the Royal Four about their people or their planet or about the other planets or about Kivar. Nasedo didn’t tell the Royal Four the exact location of the spaceship or the diamond key needed to operate it, in case he died. Nasedo was the Royal Four’s enemy. Nasedo’s schemes failed, because Max, Michael, and Isabel had good human friends, who rescued them. They were still in high school, children untrained and unequipped to do much of anything, let alone overthrow the ruler of a planet who had access to weapons and powers beyond their knowlage. It wasn't time yet. They were safer in the long run, not having the Granolyth or attempting anything they would be unable to finish. Better to live as humans, than die in a futile attempt against K'var. Naturally, Mr. H didn't tell them what they didn't need to know yet. __________________ System Error: Please insert backup reality & reboot. Last edited by Reggie : 05-31-2006 at 12:27 PM. | |||
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| #84 | |||
| Loyal Fan Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,525
| Hi Reggie! One of the intriguing ideas presented in Roswell is that people are more than their bodies. In Roswell, people’s essences are essential. In the past, Reggie, you have stated that people can’t come back to life. But I think you know that some people are said to be brought back to life, after their hearts stop. We know of people who drown, who are brought back to life. And many people have heard of people who were pronounced dead, but came back to life. We know that parts of people’s dead bodies can be used to repair other people. Cadaver bones and blood vessels are sometimes used as replacement parts in others. And we can grow tissues and we can clone cells. So the idea of people getting new body parts or maybe an entirely new body is something people sometimes consider. We know that individual people have individual personalities and preferences. We know that some people are naturally outgoing and gregarious, while others are shy. We know of some families which have multiple generations of physicians or lawyers or military officers or actors or other career preferences. I think we all know some people who seem especially suited to their endeavors. One important thing that we don’t know yet is how memories are stored and retrieved. We know that it happens, but we don’t know how. Sometimes, people liken the idea of memory storage and retrieval in people to being something like the way computers store and retrieve memories. Imagine now, if you wish, that someday, people whose bodies have been badly damaged, could have their memories and personalities transferred into a fresh, healthy body. The idea is science fiction. We lack the ability to do such things now. But in a story like Roswell, which is science fiction, it is possible for people who once lived, to live again in another body, after their previous body died. In the story of Roswell, Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had lived before. They were murdered by Kivar. They had a few memories of their past lives. Whether their memories of their former lives had been largely destroyed when they were murdered is unknown. Perhaps the 1947 crash had damaged or affected their memories. Perhaps the damage done to the pods by the medical people in 1947 had delayed their memories. Perhaps their memories of their past lives would continue to emerge. The Dupes in New York were very different people from the real Royal Four of Roswell. The Roswell group helped each other and other people outside their group. The Dupes stole from others and didn’t help people outside their group. New-York-Zan lacked Max’s force-field shield power. Max reacted immediately, with his force-field shield power, when he entered the room with the welder, who surprised him. If New-York-Zan had had a force-field shield power, then he would have been able to save his life from the speeding truck. But New-York-Zan didn’t use a force-field shield power. He just lay there, as Ava said. We (the audience) see New-York-Zan facing the light of the headlights, doing nothing, before he was killed by the truck. In contrast, Max was able to stop bullets in mid-air and create a net to catch Liz in mid-air. Max used his power immediately to save lives. Max was the real King Zan. He had the Seal of Antar in his brain. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were given the Granilith. Their pods were placed directly in front of the Granilith chamber, which housed the Granilith. The book translation says that they were given the Granilith. The Royal Four’s pods were placed with beautiful decoration around the pods. The Dupes’ pods had no decoration around them. Their pods were placed on a plain wall, in a horizontal arrangement, without the beautiful decorations used in the rock formation. The Dupes’ pods were placed in the New York City sewers, where anyone might easily find them. The Dupes’ pods were placed 1,921 miles (3091.5 kilometers) away from the Granilith. The Dupes had matching identifying marks on their upper right arms. The Dupes were decoys. Lonnie didn’t know what the Granilith was. She was under the impression that the Granilith was a religious object, like the Holy Grail. The Holy Grail would be a cup, which is a small object, not a large object, like the Granilith. Isabel, in contrast, found the Granilith, and she immediately knew that it was the Granilith. Isabel, not Lonnie, was the real Vilandra. The Dupes were decoys. Enemies and outsiders located the Dupes, after the Royal Four used the orbs, triggering a signal that left Earth. People on Earth and people beyond Earth were led by the signal to find the Dupes in the New York City sewers. The Summit members asked the Dupes to meet with them. The Summit members knew that the Royal Four no longer looked as they had on Antar. They didn’t rely on external appearance to decide who the real King Zan was. The Royal Four were now in different bodies. Max was tested by the emissary and was proven to have the Seal of Antar. Max was the real King Zan. The Dupes weren’t the real Royal Four. The Dupes had been duped into thinking they were the Royal Four. But they weren’t. They were only decoys. Nicholas knew that they weren’t the real Royal Four, because they didn’t have the Granilith. Nicholas knew from accessing Courtney’s mind that the Roswell group had the Granilith, not the Dupes. Reggie, you say that the noise at Hank's was intended to mark the time of his death, precisely because Michael had an alibi for that time. However, the Sheriff didn’t believe Maria, even though she vouched for Michael. The Sheriff only released Michael, because he believed Amy, who had finally believed her daughter. At first, though, Amy was unwilling to believe Maria, since Michael had spent the night with Maria, which Amy disapproved of. Only because Maria was able to convince her mother that Michael was a good guy, and only because the Sheriff believed Amy, did Michael get an alibi. A genuine protector would have given Michael a safe home. Michael was in foster care. So any genuine shapeshifter protector could pretend to be any person and order Michael into a new, safe home. If a genuine shapeshifter protector wanted Hank dead, then he should have killed Hank, while Michael was in school, with lots of witnesses around to give Michael an alibi, if needed. An even better strategy for a real protector to use would be to make Hank’s death look like an accident or suicide or impersonate Hank without the noises in the trailer, and have “Hank” tell everyone he was leaving town. Then Michael never would have been arrested or given an arrest record, on file, and available for law enforcement. Michael and Max were aliens. It was hazardous to their health and their anonymity to be arrested and given an arrest record. Nasedo (whom you refer to as a separate person, Tic-Tac) was an enemy. The shapeshifter who got Michael arrested for Hank’s disappearance was Michael’s enemy. Nasedo got Max captured for all the silver handprint murders. Nasedo could have murdered Pierce in Roswell, but he didn’t. Nasedo could have killed Pierce in the white room, when he stood right next to him. But he didn’t. Nasedo should have left with Max and Michael to protect them. But he didn’t. Nasedo was their enemy. He wanted them captured by humans. Reggie, you say that the reason Nasedo didn’t tell them about the Granilith or their past lives or translate the book or tell them the exact location of the spaceship and the diamond key needed to activate the ship, is because Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were high school kids. Most high school kids are responsible, intelligent people, like Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess. Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess were all capable of knowing and handling truth. Nasedo wasn’t in charge. Max was. Nasedo wasn’t a superior. Nasedo was their enemy. Reggie, you say that the Royal Four were safer in the long run, not having the Granilith or attempting anything they would be unable to finish. You say it was better for them to live as humans, than die in a futile attempt against Kivar. However, we know that Kivar and other aliens came to Earth. We know that Earth was destroyed 14 years into the future. Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess needed to know everything about themselves and about Kivar and about the Granilith and about the spaceship, in order to protect themselves from aliens from other planets, who were already on Earth and who could continue to arrive on Earth. Nasedo didn’t tell the Royal Four how they had been created. He didn’t tell them that Gandarium had been on the spaceship that crashed. Nasedo didn’t provide the Royal Four with a way to leave Earth, if they needed to. Nasedo didn’t tell them about Larek, who was Max’s childhood friend. He didn’t tell them that there were other planets, with people besides the people on their alien home planet. Nasedo was their enemy. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were more than high school kids. Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess were alien hybrids living on a planet with humans hostile to extraterrestrials. They were living on a planet where enemy aliens had arrived. Nasedo knew that he could die. He had been killed in the white room. He turned to dust the second time he died. If Nasedo had been a genuine protector, he would have told them everything he knew about themselves, about their alien parents, about Kivar, about the people on other planets, and about the Granilth. If Nasedo had been a genuine protector, he would have taught them their language, translated the book, told them the exact location of the spaceship and the diamond key. If Nasedo had been a genuine protector, he would have wanted them to be able to escape Earth if necessary. If Nasedo was a genuine protector, he would have encouraged them to learn everything they could about Earth and about their home planet and the other planets. Knowledge is power. Nasedo wasn’t a “protector”. Nasedo was Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess’ enemy. Fortunately, he was killed by Whitaker, before he could succeed in getting the Royal Four captured by humans. _________________________________ __________________________Last edited by Citrus and Vine : 06-01-2006 at 12:30 PM. | |||
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| #85 | |||
| Elite Fan Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,972
| Why do you think Zan didn't want to go to the summit ? The dupes seem to be intend on going back so why was Zan reluctant ? __________________ - Michael & Maria - a CONNECTION, a CHEMISTRY, they have it... they're one of the hottest couple on tv (David Nutter, director) - Michael and Maria belong together (Thania St John, writer) Icon : ? | |||
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| #86 | |||
| Loyal Fan Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,525
| Hi xmag! Zan refused to go the Summit, because he thought the summit might be a set up, meaning a trap. RATH: They contacted us again last night. Same invite. We gotta tell 'em something. ZAN: Tell 'em no LONNIE: Yo, you sayin' we ain't going to the summit? ZAN: That's what I'm saying. RATH: Yo, that's messed up, duke. This is the only time we've ever been contacted. ZAN: Whatever. That's it. AVA: We tell 'em no, they won't ask again. ZAN: Tell 'em hell no. RATH: What is up with you, man? I'm tired of you. I'll go by myself! ZAN: They don't want the number 2. They want the royal four. RATH: Why don't we go and see what they gotta say? Why don't we go and get the answers? ZAN: What if it's a setup? RATH: No, it's not a setup! They need us! ZAN: I'm the man. Don't forget. ____________________________________________ Shapeshifter “Tic Tac” (Nasedo) Reggie, your current theory is that the shapeshifter Nasedo was a separate shapeshifter from the shapeshifter “Tic Tac”. Good detectives evaluate modus operandi in judging a suspect’s actions and motives. Tic-Tac , Nasedo’ s motives are suspect, because of the wanton and unnecessary murders committed. There is no justifiable reason for Tic-Tac Nasedo to murder Hank, Atherton, or Sheila Hubble. Hank was very drunk, when Michael used his powers. Hank was a known drunk. Social Services knew that Hank was a known drunk, when Michael was a child. Social Services hadn’t believed Hank’s story about Michael’s powers, when Michael was a child. No one would believe Hank now either. It’s unlikely that Hank would even remember what Michael did, because, as Isabel pointed out, Hank was so drunk. People are unlikely to believe stories about strange powers from a drunk. A true protector never would have allowed Michael to be raised by a drunken, neglectful, abusive person like Hank. Hank told Michael to use beer on cereal, for Michael’s evening dinner. Alcohol is very bad for kids. Alcohol was especially bad for Michael. A true protector would have gotten Michael to a good, safe home that would have provided Michael with nutritious meals. A true protector never would have taken away Hank and allowed Michael to be arrested for Hank’s disappearance. A true shapeshifter protector would have pretended to everyone that Hank was leaving town, before Michael was arrested. A true shapeshifter protector would not have made loud noises in the trailer that convinced neighbors that Michael was involved in the loud tortured screams they heard. Tic-Tac Nasedo easily moved bodies. Hank’s body was removed from the trailer, with neighbors in the vicinity. Nasedo-Ed Harding removed the agent’s body from downtown Roswell, from the scene, without difficulty, in board daylight, with people in the vicinity. Tic-Tac – Nasedo used the identical modus operandi. Tic-Tac Nasedo framed Michael for a crime Michael hadn’t committed. Tic-Tac Nasedo framed Max for crimes Max hadn’t committed. Nasedo murdered people unnecessarily. The agent in downtown Roswell didn’t know that Ed Harding was Nasedo, a shapeshifter alien. Nasedo murdered the agent in downtown Roswell to frame Max for all the silver handprint murders. Nasedo assumed Max’s form, kidnapped Liz, dumped the agent’s body with a silver handprint on it, and let Liz answer her phone, in order that Max would know that a shapeshifter had kidnapped her. Nasedo notified Pierce by phone and told law enforcement where to find the dead agent’s body. Nasedo continued with Liz to the gas station, where he left another silver handprint, set fire, and had himself photographed as Max leaving the station with the kidnapped Liz, who was missing her shift at work, and would be missed by her parents and friends. Nasedo went to the carnival with Liz, where many people could witness “Max” with Liz, who was kidnapped. Nasedo sent the alien symbol into the night sky. The symbol was visible for miles. Max, Michael, and Isabel knew the alien symbol. Nasedo knew that Max had saved Liz’s life in September, risking his secret. Nasedo knew that Max was in love with Liz. Max (and Isabel, Michael and Tess) went to the carnival, as Nasedo had thought that Max would do, after Max knew that Liz had been kidnapped. Law enforcement went to the carnival, too, as Nasedo had also intended. Max was captured at the carnival, as Nasedo had intended. If Max hadn’t been captured at the carnival, Max would have been captured later. Max's picture as a criminal had been faxed to law enforcement. Nasedo and Tic Tac were one and the same shapeshifter, whose motive was to get Michael and Max captured by humans. His motive was to have humans and law enforcement alerted to crimes that Nasedo framed Max and Michael for. Nasedo Tic-Tac didn’t want Michael or Max to live safe, anonymous lives on Earth. Nasedo Tic-Tac’s modus operandi demonstrates that Nasedo Tic-Tac was Michael and Max’s enemy. _____________________________________________________ Last edited by Citrus and Vine : 06-01-2006 at 01:54 PM. | |||
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| #87 | |||
| Passionate Fan Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,774
| Quote:
 If there's ever a new version of Roswell, I hope they bring back Dupe Zan. __________________ | |||
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| #88 | |||
| Part-Time Fan  Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
| Quote:
Alright, with the disclaimer out of the way, I will agree with you that their relationship is definitely born out of a bunch of circumstances coming together and that Alex's death sped up the development of M/T's relationship esp the sexual aspect of the relationship. However, the romantic aspect of their relationship (the bedroom scene in OTM, the kiss in HOM) had been set in motion before Alex's death. (I'll discount the S1 kiss because that was much more sexual than romantic and it wasn't exactly the height of Max recognizing Tess as a person not an object of lust and symbol for his alieness. ) They had been growing to truly know each other as friends since EOTW then the alien stuff happens and Max, as I stated before, starts doing the memory retrieval techniques and he remembers being Zan and being with Ava.This is the turning point from caring to love, for me. While I do agree with you that M/T are in no way Alien!Z/A, I think the past love of Zan and Ava (again, I'm just going to accept that Alien!Zan and Ava were in love because Larek, who was supposed to be a close friend of Alien!Zan, said they were in love, the Dupe!Zan and Ava, who were supposed to remember Antar, were together, and both Max and Tess' memories of Alien!Zan and Ava support that conclusion) had an effect on Max and Tess' feeling for each other. This is something Mi/I did not have to contend with and, I think, the biggest difference between the two couples beyond growing up together. As Reggie and xmag said, A!Rath might've considered A!Vilandra to be his possession, but he didn't seem in love with her and A!Vilandra wasn't in love with him at all. So, Mi/I didn't want their "destiny" and neither really did A!R/V. Counter, Max begins drawn to but not wanting his Tess while Tess waits him out not-so-patiently also drawn to Max but disliking the less than ideal circumstances of him rejecting her. This leads me to my point (finally). Max always sort of wanted Tess and vise versa. Yes, if F!max hadn't visited, he would've never gotten to know Tess as a friend leading to considering her as a GF and if Alex hadn't died, they wouldn't have slept together when they did because the extra pressure from others pushing them together wouldn't have happened, but the desire to be together would've still been there. (This is probably the reason F!Max drove Tess away after he'd decided to be committed to F!Liz. He didn't like feeling conflicted.) This desire can only be explained, imo, by A!Z/A's past love. I think the creators of the pods left them mental prompters, but the decision of who they were going to get down with and whether or not they were going to return to Antar was obviously left up to them in the end. Quote:
This is just my take on Vilandra though. __________________ That would be a good thing for them to cut on my tombstone: Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment. -- Dorothy Parker avi by corrodedsilence | |||
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| #89 | |||
| Passionate Fan Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,774
| misscriss, Your post above about the Max/Tess relationship is the best description I have ever read. And I'm more or less a Dreamer. I like the way the science fiction of Roswell (in this case, past lives influencing hybrid clones) has a crucial role in the character development. Do you think you could do the same with the Max/Liz relationship? __________________ | |||
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| #90 | |||
| Part-Time Fan Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
| Sorry, shapeshifter, but M/L had an Earth bound relationship. This is what made Liz special to Max. She was his normal. If anything, I think the alien element most unique to their relationship (the flashes) was a minus rather than a plus to them. It made them lazy with each other. They had this instant mind melding and connection then when the connection broke down (around EOTW) they didn't have the communication skills and groundwork to fix their relationship w/out it. This led to some rather hurtful lies and actions on both their parts late S2 and in S3. Misha said in her post on the other page something about Tess not really knowing Max (and I agree w/ her to a certain extent), but I'd also apply that statement to M/L's relationship. When Max healed Liz, they saw into each other's "souls," but they didn't learn anything about who the other person was in a real life context. They never got real enough with each other so when circumstances started getting too real (like being attracted to other people, finding themselves drifting apart, Alex's death) they didn't know how to cope and keep it together. Even in S3, I didn't think that they had learned how to function as a healthy couple. They were only just beginning to hash out their issues w/ each other from S2 (in Changes to 4AAB, before that they esp Liz, who had to suppress herself more for it to work, had been trying to turn back the clock and pretend nothing ever happened) when the show ended and they just let them marry as if everything, every issue or problem, just ends when you're married. So, I think the alien aspects of M/L's relationship (not even touching on the alien politics or anything of the like) was detremental to them. It let them feel more connected to each other (in the Pilot, in SH, in S&B, in MiitC, in CDB) than they truly were. It made them feel like they should just know the other's feeling rather than work on be open with each other in a real way. __________________ That would be a good thing for them to cut on my tombstone: Wherever she went, including here, it was against her better judgment. -- Dorothy Parker avi by corrodedsilence | |||
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