Roswell - RBI # 5 : The sci-fi in Roswell - Page 4

Citrus and Vine · 05-09-2006, 05:47 PM

Hi Reggie and everyone!

No one would bother to re-create people who had been spoiled brats on their planets.

The people, who sent Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess to Earth, respected the four of them, in their previous lifetimes on Antar.

The summit members so respected King Zan in his previous lifetime, that they wanted to meet with him, even though the effort used up great amounts of their resources.

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Reggie · 05-13-2006, 03:52 PM

Hmm. How many of the worst brats have parents who think they're just adorable? That they can do no wrong? Isn't that at least part of what makes a child go bad in the first place?

As for the summit, don't forget that they all wanted the end of the war. They probably were been willing to grasp at any possibility, however slight. Remember, K'var had a representative there; that might well have been enough reason to come.

By the way, I was reminded rather forcefully this week just why I always wear my seat belts. I'm OK, just a couple of bruises, but the steering wheel on my car is bent, and so is the frame, the RF fender, and a few other important parts.

So, I'm now car shopping.

Anyway, you've heard it all before, and besides it's the law; but I tell you from experience:

Wear your seat belts !

Citrus and Vine · 05-13-2006, 07:07 PM

Hey Reggie! Great advice about wearing seat belts! Sorry about your vehicle. Glad you only sustained bruises and are looking forward to getting another car!

In the story of Roswell, I appreciate that the jeep was later outfitted with a roll bar, and that the characters use their seat belts.

Nicholas wasn’t Kivar’s representative. Nicholas showed up at the Summit meeting uninvited. Nicholas lied about representing Kivar.

The Skins arrived on Earth in 1950, after the 1947 crash. The Skins were sent to Earth and forced to live in husks, as punishment from Kivar. The Skins had no way off Earth.

Greer, at the end of Harvest, says they (the Skins) are all as good as dead. If Kivar had left the Skins on Earth with a spaceship or with the material and the expertise to build a spaceship, then the Skins wouldn’t all have been as good as dead, after their husks were destroyed. If the Skins had been in good standing with Kivar, they could have been rescued by Kivar, after Courtney destroyed their new husks. But the Skins knew that Kivar wouldn’t rescue them, and they knew they had no way off Earth, without the Granilith. That’s why they needed the Granilith. Thus, we know that the Skins were Kivar’s enemies, as well as enemies (with the exception of Courtney to Michael) of the Royal Four.

We can also see at the Summit that Nicholas arrived uninvited by the Summit members. A woman Summit member turns aside, when Nicholas arrives uninvited. Nicholas knew about the meeting, because he located the Dupes, who were decoys. The decoy Dupes had been found and contacted by the Summit members, after the orbs led enemies and outsiders to the Dupes, after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess used the orbs.

The Summit members had wanted King Zan to rule, instead of Kivar. The Summit members hadn’t been able to find peace with Kivar around, in the 50+ years, since the death of the King Zan. The Summit members expended great amounts of their resources, in the hopes that Max/King Zan could help them. Max wasn’t in a position to be able to help them. He wisely refused Nicholas’ phony offer.

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Even the most doting of mothers knows whether or not her children are spoiled or are brats. No one would bother to re-create brats or spoiled children. No one would have any hope or expectation that brats or spoiled children could free them.

A great deal of time and expense and planning was done to ensure the safety of the Royal Four. The people opposed to Kivar wanted the Royal Four to return to their home planet. The people of Antar knew that the Royal Four had been good people. Otherwise, the survivors on Antar wouldn’t have bothered to re-create the Royal Four and protect them and hope for their return to free the people of Antar.

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miss3cris · 05-14-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggie

And I don't take it as established that Kal (or any shapeshifter) had to obey direct orders from Max or any of the kids. Remember, their duty is to protect the kids; and if that conflicts with what the kids want then the kids have to obey their protectors; not vice versa. And if you are going to constrain the protectors to obey, then why such a cramped interpretation? Wouldn't a more general admonition be better, as well as easier?

Frankly, I think that staying away from the podsters, and not serving them, was the best thing that the shapeshifters could have done for them. It taught them not to be spoiled brats; and might that not have been the problem originally? That King Zan & company were spoiled, and that's what caused the problems? Remember the things Nikolas said about Max...

This is quite the discussion. I want in:

From canon, we can see that the plan to stash the R4 on Earth didn't go down exactly as planned. They crashed. The protectors from the ship were injured, a few died and they lost the pods so I think it's safe to say that things went a little haywire on Earth. So, this leads me to believe that this plan was dashed together by ? (King Zan, the Queen Mother, idk) and they didn't know what was going to happen once the pods hatched. I think they expected (this drawn from the surprise from the other aliens they encountered) the R4 to remember Antar. Therefore, while they might've physically been children, they would've internally been adults. So, the argument that they wouldn't want to spoil the kids seems too far a stretch. I don't think they thought that far.

Also a stretch,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth in 1958/1959, eleven or twelve years after the 1947 crash.

Why should we believe that Kal and Nasedo aren't the protectors from 1947? I understand perfectly well that both Kal and Nasedo were terrible protectors and did act like enemies (based on your interpretation) at times, but it seems much too convoluted a storyline to say that there were these protectors in 1947 but these two who say they are them really aren't them but we're never going to show you or tell you what happened to the 1947 protectors.

I'd just prefer to take Kal and Nasedo's word for it and believe that they, as xmag suggested, somehow lost interest in their jobs.

If we believe that Kal (and Nasedo by extension) have to follow Max's direct orders and are incapable of causing him serious harm (I think there is a logical loophole with Kal "attacking" Max. Kal may have led Max to believe he was in serious danger when he attacked him, but obviously since Max lived and was only a little banged up he wasn't in mortal danger from Kal. Therefore, Kal has some freedom to attack unless directly ordered not to but cannot seriously harm Max.) then I think we should consider that all the protectors/shapeshifters come with this feature so in 1947 fresh off the boat, as it were, neither man would think that having to obey your leader is strange and would blindly follow their role as protector cut to decades later on this new world with its dangers and temptations (at least Kal was tempted) and your being able to make ALL your own decisions.

You start questioning your loyalty and if you really want to go back to that life. You decide I never want to go back to that life and do everything in your power to make sure that the one person who can make you go back to that life never comes in contact with you. You have him arrested. You send a scary man to warn him away. You attack him.

Also, if the other R4 could've ordered around Nasedo or any of the protectors, Tess would've been in more control of that relationship than she was, but she was portrayed as being the "daughter" to his "father" suggesting that he had more power in the relationship than her.

ETA: In WO, Nicholas implied that not only is there a death penalty on Antar, but Zan liked to stage public executions ala the Roman Empire.

Reggie · 05-14-2006, 12:21 PM

Welcome, miss3cris! I see you joined FanForum in May 2006. Are you new to Roswell & FanForum, a returning user, or was your account wiped out somehow? (Just curious.

)

I think they expected (this drawn from the surprise from the other aliens they encountered) the R4 to remember Antar. Therefore, while they might've physically been children, they would've internally been adults. So, the argument that they wouldn't want to spoil the kids seems too far a stretch.

Well, remember that there are two R4's, and one set of them does indeed remember Antar. They also exhibit the sort of amoral self-centeredness that one would expect of spoiled children, grown up. The ones that do not remember got the "Mom-o-gram", which she made to tell the kids that they'd lived before. She obviously understood that these would not remember! And these kids, from NM, are the ones who are better raised, and more responsible as people.

It seems to me that "Queen Mom" split her bets. On one hand, we have an R4 who are effectively the old aliens in new bodies. If they turned out well, great; they could win back their throne. If they were failures in this life, as before, then there is another R4. These would not remember Antar (at least at first), and be raised by humans, not royalty. This more-human set could have more wisdom and maturity, and thus be better able eventually to recover and rule. Which of these is the "official" R4? I say both, and let the better group succede.

Why should we believe that Kal and Nasedo aren't the protectors from 1947? (...) but it seems much too convoluted a storyline to say that there were these protectors in 1947; but these two who say they are them, really aren't them, but we're never going to show you or tell you what happened to the 1947 protectors.

I'd just prefer to take Kal and Nasedo's word for it and believe that they, as xmag suggested, somehow lost interest in their jobs.

Well, under most circumstances I honor the application of Occam's Razor. But given that this is Roswell...

I've said before that I don't consider most of S3 as being true Roswell, but rather a cruel imitation of it. Therefore, I take Kal and everything associated with him with a grain of salt. In S1 we saw two different shapeshifters: "Tic-tac", who was benevolant but clandestine, who melted from one form to another and took a tic-tac afterwards; and Mr. Harding, who was cold and distant but direct, and "flashed" from one form to another without taking a tic-tac afterwards. Kal didn't shapeshift, so he could not be either of these; he's a third shapeshifter!

Tic-tac acted to protect the "Podsters" from the Special Unit, once they had been compromised by the impostor Guidance Councilor (whose name I forget just now). Remember he guided the Sherrif and kids away from contact with the Special Unit. He also kept an eye on Max & Liz as they slept, out in the desert, and "neutralized" Michael's adopted father Hank after Michael revealed his powers and Hank proved to be a threat. It seems to me that he was doing his job, keeping an eye on the non-remembering R4 from a discreet distance.

Mr. Harding had a different job, but he was still doing it as well. He was raising Tess seperately from the others. Since she could mindwarp, she wasn't really safe to let loose on an unknowing human family. Also, she had to be raised seperately because children raised together form a "family" bond even when they are not related. Note that the Isabel / Michael pairing was too close to incest, and the same thing would have happened in a Max / Tess pairing, even though they were supposed to be husband & wife again. So, Max got the human family upbringing; and Tess was raised by an alien... an alien who was always with her, not watching the other three in Roswell. (So Mr. Harding could not have been Tic-tac.)

I don't believe for a minute the idea that Mr. H programmed Tess to betray the R4 to K'var. He killed them once, there is every reason (including Nikolas's comments) to believe he would do it again. But we can cover that later; and I still need to deal with "Cadmium X'.

miss3cris · 05-14-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggie

Welcome, miss3cris! I see you joined FanForum in May 2006. Are you new to Roswell & FanForum, a returning user, or was your account wiped out somehow? (Just curious. )

I'm not new to either Ros or FF. I had an account that I just don't remember either the screenname or password and was pretty much a lurker before now because Ros FF was an intimidating place back in the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggie

They also exhibit the sort of amoral self-centeredness that one would expect of spoiled children, grown up.

Spoilt children or heirs to an absolute monarchy.

Also, the dupes were not spoilt. They were neglected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggie

It seems to me that "Queen Mom" split her bets. On one hand, we have an R4 who are effectively the old aliens in new bodies. If they turned out well, great; they could win back their throne. If they were failures in this life, as before, then there is another R4. These would not remember Antar (at least at first), and be raised by humans, not royalty. This more-human set could have more wisdom and maturity, and thus be better able eventually to recover and rule. Which of these is the "official" R4? I say both, and let the better group succede.

First, I don't think that the human raised R4 was more wise or mature.

Lonnie, as bad as she was, understood very well how to plot and exist in a politically complicated atmosphere. Max did not. In fact, in the end, he and the others proved to be very unconcerned with the important roles they had on their home planet preferring their human lives and that was not a mature or leader-like decision, imo.

Second, I think the fact that Max/Isabel/Michael were raised by humans was a complete accident. Nasedo makes it clear that he lost them. They hatched earlier or Tess hatched late but he had intended to raise all four of them. The reason for this is clear. They got very attached to their human lives to the point that they rejected their status as R4.

I do agree with the idea that the Queen Mother was splitting her bets. There was obviously something wrong with the original R4. They weren't the sweet and lightness that commoners (like Courtney and Whitaker) were told they were. There was a legend told involving grand love, tragic betrayal of loyalty, and all that junk then there was a more complicated truth. So, it makes sense that the Queen Mother, who was trying to preserve her family's power base, would make two sets (one that remembers more or less and one that does not) to see which one would turn out better.

To bring us back to the Seal debate, this would mean that Zan would have to have the Seal.

As for Nasedo vs. Tic-tac, this is a true puzzle. They do genuinely seem to be two different shapeshifters. Also, it seems that Tic-tac knew where the Ros set was while Nasedo did not. What is the reason for this? There seemed to be a hell of a lot going on behind the scenes with the shapeshifters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reggie

I don't believe for a minute the idea that Mr. H programmed Tess to betray the R4 to K'var.

Pure BS, imo. Whitaker killed Nasedo. She tried to kill Tess and Isabel too. Tess killed all the other Skins except Nicholas who seemed to survive the attack. He had her kidnapped in NYC, an event that she didn't fully remember. It was obvious that the only programming going on was Nicholas programming Tess to betray the R4.

Oh, and I forget who mentioned it, but I do think that due to how the most alien of aliens acted that the Antarians were like the Klingons and were a warrior based society.

Misha · 05-14-2006, 07:18 PM

Hey guys!! I'm warming up to a discussion here

Reggie, though I do understand where you are coming from, I don't think the former or the present R4 were spoiled to that extent.

First of all, let's take the former. I can believe that the Queen Mother -or Zan himself- planned all of this in anticipation for any eventuallity -might be a lot of stretch, but okay, let's say it could- but I don't see a Rebellion forming, maintaining and still fighting 50 years later if their rulers were idiots, or spoiled brats (is it spoilt? sorry, English is my second language...

). This Rebellion is strong enough for Khivar to want to come heremin search of them, play the Summit to make them look bad, try to kill them, etc., etc., etc.. No, this Rebellion wants Khivar out and Zan back.

Most of the info we got about their previous lives came from enemy sources, which are not exactly the best out there, or that are shaped according to this group's perspective. Larek said Zan wanted to do too much too soon, and that Khivar took it all away, and Larek did seem sad about that. Courtney trusted that Michael was good enough to keep the "brink of a Golden Age" going on, something that Zan was failing to do, at least according to this group.

I know that kings can be idiots, selfcentered, yadda, yadda, yadda, but it does sound, at least sometimes, that Zan and co. were trying to do right. At least right enough for people to build a legend around them and still be waiting after 50 years.

So, back to the big scheme. I do agree with miss3cris that the plan including being raised by Humans is not coherent. First of all, that would imply a very large understanding of Human nature, and that would lead to "what the hell am I thinking sending our only hope there?"

Okay, rant there. What I mean is that, with that in mind, look where Michael ended. Max and Isabel could have ended everywhere, and have crappy lives. What if their families decided to move out of the country? If their parent divorced and took each children their own separate ways? What if Michael and Isabel had, indeed, ended up as siblings, and without any memory, Max and Isabel had thought they had a chance?

Besides, 1947 society has little to do with 1989 society. And that applies to most of the whole world. So, if it was ever a plan, it would have had been done 40 years later. It was too much of a risky bet, with no unclear outcome at all. I think that Nasedo did lose them, and it was never intended for the R4 to be raised as humans, get attach to consider this their home planet and to have no idea how things were on their planet. If they are expected to lead, they have to know who they are leading.

The whole thing with the memories might as well be a flaw. The memories are clearly there -very conviniently popping up for Michael in Interruptus, but okay...

- but they are just not doing all those retrieval techniques or whatever. Or maybe they are supposed to remember later in life, when they are matture enough to understand what they are remembering and know what to do with it.

By the way, miss3cris, totally loved your line about the dupes being neglected!

They knew how powerful they were, so they used it to their own adventage, specially on a place that was so full of dangers like New York where they had to fend for themselves. They were brats, but they were not stupid.

So, for me, the whole two sets thing being separated was due to choices taken here, on Earth, between 1947 and 1989, for reasons unknown to us (don't you just love fanfiction??). Kal seriously forgot about going to Antar, and pretty much hoped that the R4 of both sides forgot about it, or at least forgot about him. Nasedo, in the other hand, didn't. Was the NasedoPact true or not, that's a whole other discussion, but I don't think this was all planned out when the Antarians decided to make the Hybrids. Things just happened.

The Shapeshifters thing... Tic-tac is still a very popular idea, and he could have never been Kal because Kal insisted he hadn't shifted for the past 30 years. Clearly, we can go with Tic-tac being a third shapeshifter. We know from Pierce that there were four an that only two survived, but who knows? Maybe there were more the Special Unit did not know about, maybe this third came before, later, whatever. Still, it's a wild card here. There's so little we know about shapeshifters that almost anything can be applied.

I do believe, though, that Nasedo was tic-tac. Maybe it's a little thin, but Maxsedo's line to Liz that he had been so many people she had no idea works for me and believing he was Margollis, the guy in SH, and the one to kill Hank.

Now I feel like I'm starting to rant again...

Misha

Citrus and Vine · 05-14-2006, 11:47 PM

Hi Misha, miss3cris, Reggie, and everyone!

Do you think that you personally could ever lose interest in caring about the people you currently care about, even 50 years into the future?

Kal and Nasedo weren’t protectors. They never had been protectors. Both Kal and Nasedo were enemies of King Zan. They were punished on Antar for having interfered in King Zan’s life on Antar. To discourage Kal or Nasedo from ever again interferring in King Zan’s life, they had been programmed to have to obey his direct orders. They were also programmed to be unable to personally kill him.

After Kivar murdered the Royal Four, and after the Royal Four had been re-created and sent to Earth, Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth, around 1958-1959, on the beautiful, fully functional spaceship they hid under the convenience store in Utah.

miss3cris, you ask, what happened to the real protectors, if Kal and Nasedo hadn’t been part of the 1947 mission.

The real guardian protectors of the Royal Four took the pods from the military base. The real protectors hid the Royal Four in the rock formation, in front of the Granilith chamber. The real protecters took the decoy set of pods (the Dupes) to New York City, and placed them in the sewers, to be found by enemies and outsiders looking for the Royal Four.

The real guardian protectors buried one orb in the desert. (The U.S. government got the other orb.)

The real protectors notified Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother that the Royal Four had arrived on Earth. The real protectors also notified Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother that their enemies and the enemies of the Royal Four had arrived on Earth and currently looked human. They also notified her that the Royal Four’s memories might be impaired, from injuries sustained from the crash and from damage done by humans using scalpels to investigate the pods, before the real protectors killed the humans.

Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother recorded a message, in the event that the Royal Four were able to find the orbs and activate them. Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother and the other loyal Antarians knew that the orbs could no longer be safely used as a two-way communication system, since enemies that arrived on Earth could intercept any message.

When Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess activated the orbs, they received the recorded message, telling them who they were, and warning them that their enemies had arrived on Earth, and that they would only know their enemies, by the evil within.

Kal and Nasedo were evil people. They murdered innocent people for their own gain. They were bad, evil, self-centered people. They didn’t help other people. They harmed and murdered people without provocation. They didn't protect anyone. They were evil people, who had each interfered in King Zan’s life on Antar and had each been punished and programmed for their crimes.

Nasedo wanted to sequentially capture the Royal Four. Kal wanted to keep Max from the spaceship. Kal knew that the spaceship could fly and that Max could fly away the ship by himself.

Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother said nothing about guardians or protectors in her message. If any protectors had continued to live, they could have told Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess about their lives on Antar and how they had been killed and then re-created and then sent to Earth .

By the time Max and Isabel's Antarian mother recorded her message, she had received news that all the guardian protectors were no longer around to explain things to the Royal Four. That is why her message explained to the four who they were.

Maybe the real protectors succumbed to injuries from the crash, after they hid the pods and buried the one orb.

Pierce reported that two live aliens had been captured. One escaped. Maybe the alien who escaped and the other real protectors were later captured and/or murdered by the people who had the pentagon-shaped devices. Maybe the real protectors were killed by the Skins or by humans. Maybe the real guardian protectors died from Earth accidents or diseases.

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xmag · 05-16-2006, 07:22 AM

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Your country France doesn't allow the death penalty.

The death penalty existed in France until 1979.

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In the United States, a jury recently voted life imprisonment, instead of death, for Zacarias Moussaoui, who had wanted to be part of the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on Sept. 11, 2001, in the United States. So, depending on the crime and the views of the people, some crimes aren't punished by death.

There is a difference between not executing people and punishing them. If Nacedo and Cal were punished for their past actions, then they should have been sent to jail, or on exile on a far away planet, but not sent with the precious royal family. I don't see Moussaoui being "punished" for his crimes by walking freely around the survivors of the terrorist attack in 2001. On the contrary, he has been sent in jail for the rest of his life. Now, that's logical.

Quote:

Kal and Nasedo were punished on Antar for interfering in King Zan's life.

Where, in the show, was it said that Kal and Nacedo, in their previous lives, did such a thing ? That they didn't like their king, why not ? I don't like the french president, either. But I don't remember them saying that they had done something to the king, on Antar, which got them punished.

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They were programmed to obey him, if they ever directly and personally interfered in his life again.

Or maybe they were programmed because it was the tradition ? Like the eunuchs with the women of the harem, in the mueslin countries.

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Neither Kal nor Nasedo were given a death sentence, either because their crimes hadn't been bad enough to warrant a death sentence, or because their justice system didn't allow the death penalty.

Are we talking about the show or a fanfic

? Because I don't remember where, in the show, Nacedo and Kal said that they had been some kind of criminals or rebels who had been punished by being sent to Earth with the R4.

The problem I have with Nacedo is that the guy was killed by the skins. Didn't Whittaker say so ? So why kill a guy who is on their side ? Unless he was never on their side. He might not have liked the R4 or the humans, but he told them NOT TO use the orbs because of the enemies they might alert. He was killed by his so-called allees. There is something fishy, here. That's just not logical.

Citrus and Vine · 05-16-2006, 12:00 PM

Hi xmag!

Yes, Whitaker, a Skin, told Isabel that she had killed Nasedo.

Nasedo and the Skins weren’t allies. The Skins didn’t work for Kivar. The Skins were exiled to Earth and forced to wear husks they hated. The Skins wanted the Granilith, so they could leave Earth.

Nasedo wasn’t a Skin. He hadn’t been exiled to Earth. Nasedo was a shape-shifter, who arrived on Earth after the Skins. The Skins arrived in 1950. Kal and Nasedo arrived around 1958-1959.

Nasedo may have been an ally of Kivar. Or Nasedo may have been working independently. Nasedo wasn’t an ally of the Skins. Nasedo and Kal didn’t work together, either, except to come to Earth together, on a ship that had been one of King Zan’s ships.

xmag, I think your position is that if Kal and Nasedo had committed crimes against King Zan, then they should have been executed, exiled, or imprisoned forever.

I think we both agree that some civilized people consider the death penalty to be an unacceptable punishment for crime. As we have both noted, France and other modern countries forbid the death penalty.

Antar seems to have had a monarchy government, until the Royal Four were murdered.

Antar also had very advanced technology, compared to Earth. Antarians could travel to other planets and to other solar systems. So, I think we are both currently in agreement that any crimes Kal or Nasedo committed on Antar wouldn’t have had to be punished by death. Antarians were able to think of other punishments and controls, in response to crime.

Kal and Nasedo didn’t receive the death penalty for their crimes. Some crimes don’t rise to the level of being punished by death. Or, King Zan and his people may have considered the death penalty to be unacceptable.

Kal and Nasedo were punished by being programmed to have to obey King Zan’s orders, if they ever again directly and personally interfered in his life. They were also programmed to be unable to personally kill him.

Kal and Nasedo may have been exiled to another planet or imprisoned with a life sentence, as well as being programmed. Sometimes, people escape prisons. Sometimes, prisoners are rehabilitated or pardoned. Sometimes, prisoners are released, after having served time. Programming Kal and Nasedo would have been a necessary part to protect the King against possible escape, or to protect the King, until Kal or Nasedo proved to be rehabilitated.

After King Zan was murdered by Kivar, Kivar may have released Kal and Nasedo from their exile or life imprisonment. Or, after Kal’s or Nasedo’s term of imprisonment had been served, and they were then released for their time served.

Max and the others think that Kal and Nasedo were part of the 1947 mission. But Kal and Nasedo weren’t part of the 1947 mission. They weren’t protectors. They were bad people, who had been punished.

We, the audience, know more about Kal and Nasedo than Max and the others know. We know that Kal and Nasedo did many things against Max/King Zan (and the others) than what the main characters know.

Kal and Nasedo weren’t part of the mission that brought the pods to Earth. Kal and Nasedo arrived later, around 1958-1959. They arrived on another ship that once belonged to King Zan. They hid that ship under the convenience store in Utah, so they could use it at their convenience.

After Max found the ship in Utah, Kal got Max arrested. Kal then flew the ship to the military base. He knew exactly where the ship was, even though the General didn’t tell him. Kal managed to keep Max out of the meeting with the General. Kal didn’t want Max to know that he (Kal) knew where the spaceship was, without the General telling him.

Kal was an experienced manipulator. Max was young and inexperienced.

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shapeshifter · 05-16-2006, 06:24 PM

Great discussion...I think.
Just a passing tidbit of my 2 cents worth to add:
I get the overall impression that the shapeshifters weren't really allies with anyone.
It would be interesting to explore the dynamics, cause & effect, etc. of the shapeshifters having no free will to obey Max.
Is it ever established that they have to obey any other Royals?
I'm thinking of the shapeshifter offing Hank, which saved Michael's secret from being revealed, but also put him under suspicion.
And shapeshifting into Max ostensibly to lure Pierce away from the real Max, but then using Liz to lure the real Max into Pierce's snare.

Of course it was probably just the writers trying to keep us guessing, which begs the question of whether throwing continuity to the wind is just a style, perhaps based on the evolution of various superheroes in film, comic, book, etc.

miss3cris · 05-16-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

I think we both agree that some civilized people consider the death penalty to be an unacceptable punishment for crime. As we have both noted, France and other modern countries forbid the death penalty.

Antar seems to have had a monarchy government, until the Royal Four were murdered.

Antar also had very advanced technology, compared to Earth. Antarians could travel to other planets and to other solar systems. So, I think we are both currently in agreement that any crimes Kal or Nasedo committed on Antar wouldn’t have had to be punished by death. Antarians were able to think of other punishments and controls, in response to crime.

What does being technologically advanced have to do with socially enlightened policies?

While I appreciate your obviously well thought out ideas on the mythology behind the show, I pretty much find your theories to be ludicrious as they are not based on a scrap of evidence from the show. The truth is that we have very little and sometimes conflicting information to go on in constructing ideas about the Sci-Fi aspects of the show so we must rely on common sense, human history (because altho the mythology concerns an alien society, it was written by humans), and those bare scraps from the show.

You're pretty much ignoring the show. You intersperce your argument with facts from the show then make wild jumps to theory without explaining your process of connecting the facts to your theory.

For example, above you state that Antar was a monarchy before the R4 were killed and were a technologically advanced society. These are facts based from the show. Then, you repeat your assertion that Kal and Nacedo were punished for interfering in Zan's life. How do the two assertions connect? They don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

The Skins didn’t work for Kivar. The Skins were exiled to Earth and forced to wear husks they hated. The Skins wanted the Granilith, so they could leave Earth.

Why should we believe that Nicholas was lying about being Kivar's second-in-command on Earth especially when Lonnie remembered him and the other delegates at the summit remembered him and believed him? They're the leaders of the other worlds that Kivar is warring with. They better than anyone ought to know who can and can't speak for him.

Also, at silverhandprint.com, there was a diary from Whitaker's pov that clearly states that the Skins were sent to Earth by Kivar to search for the R4.

In summary, based soley on facts from the show and it's creators, they most certainly did work for Kivar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

Kal and Nasedo were evil people. They murdered innocent people for their own gain. They were bad, evil, self-centered people. They didn’t help other people. They harmed and murdered people without provocation. They didn't protect anyone.

Nasedo protected the R4. He raised Tess. He killed for them. He covered up Pierce's murder for them. He dismantled the Special Unit for them. He died fighting Whitaker for them. He wasn't a pleasant man. He didn't like the humans. He didn't like how human Max/Isabel/Michael were and this caused him to show a certain amount of disrespect for Max (and the thing with kidnapping Liz), but he did what he thought was best to keep them safe and preparing for their return to Antar.

Kal and Nasedo were soldiers. They killed easily, but I think this would be a vital quality in men sent to protect the future of a planet. They met (what they saw as) deadly force with deadly force. I'm not saying they were always right to do and kill who they did, but they seemed to see things in a very back and white manner. This just seemed to be their way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

Do you think that you personally could ever lose interest in caring about the people you currently care about, even 50 years into the future?

The simple answer to this question is yes. I've been friends with people, cared about them then something happens between us or a series of events happen that leads me to believe that I was mistaken in caring about this person and counting this person as my friend so after a time of reflection if I decide I am right to reconsider my relationship with them I end this relationship and I don't care about this person two years later and in fifty years I probably won't even remember this person. So, yes.

Also,

1. This question presumes that the protectors ever cared about the R4.
2. I never suggested this because I don't think of the protectors as parents, but soldiers and bodyguards. I don't think they care for the R4. I think they might traditionally hold special reverence for them (like Courtney for Rath but toned down). Also, as xmag suggested, I think the shapeshifters as a race are probably the traditional protectors/guards of the royalty on Antar. Because they hold this position, they are required as a policy to be programmed to be absolutely loyal to the word of the King. This is, of course, a false loyalty but one you probably wouldn't question surrounded by those in the same position as you (and if you did, you might want to keep it quiet seeing how the shapeshifters handle problems) but would question after fifty years of not being compelled to this loyalty.

This theory is based on the fact that Kal had to obey Zan, my limited knowledge of the tradition of elite military guard for leaders (i.e. CIA), and Kal's comments about preferring life on Earth to Antar. It says it no where in the show. If you don't want to believe it, fine. But this makes a lot more sense to me than overly complicated theories where we have to disregard almost everything from the show.

This is Ros not X-Files.

miss3cris · 05-16-2006, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shapeshiftter

I'm thinking of the shapeshifter offing Hank, which saved Michael's secret from being revealed, but also put him under suspicion.

Then he shifted into Hank for Valenti to take the suspicion off Michael.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shapeshifter

And shapeshifting into Max ostensibly to lure Pierce away from the real Max, but then using Liz to lure the real Max into Pierce's snare.

I think Nasedo was trying to kill Liz. He saw her as a threat to the plan to have the R4 return to Antar. How was Zan supposed to return to take back and rule his planet (nevermind the romantic aspect b/c Nasedo didn't strike me as a shipper

) if he had this "soulmate" on Earth? (He was right, btw. The R4 didn't return because they were too wrapped up in their human lives.) So, he tried to eliminate her by getting Pierce to do it because he knew it would be against Max's wishes and he, although he wisely never told Max, couldn't do that.

Citrus and Vine · 05-16-2006, 09:07 PM

Hi miss3cris!

miss3cris, you state that Lonnie remembered Nicholas. However, Lonnie wasn’t the real Vilandra. Lonnie was duped into thinking she had been Vilandra. She and the other Dupes weren’t given the Granilith. Lonnie and the other Dupes were decoys, who were located by enemies and outsiders, after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess used the orbs, which generated a signal around Earth. That signal and its interception are shown at the end of Destiny, the last episode of Season One.

Lonnie probably lied about remembering Nicholas, in order to convince Nicholas to take her with him. Lonnie wasn’t like Isabel, the real Vilandra. Isabel cared about other people and helped them. Lonnie assisted Rath killing her brother Zan. The real Vilandra hadn’t killed her brother. Kivar lied about Vilandra killing King Zan and betraying her people. Michael remembered that Kivar had lied about wanting peace, and then murdered everyone. The real Vilandra hadn't killed her brother. Lonnie, though, was part of New-York-Zan's murder.

Nicholas wasn’t Kivar’s second-in-command on Earth. Nicholas was forced to wear the husk of a prepubescent teen. He wasn’t valued by Kivar. He was punished by having to wear a husk that women wouldn’t be romantically attracted to. He looked like a school kid. He couldn’t go to places on Earth, where only adults are allowed. He couldn’t blend in with adults. He wasn’t a commander on Earth or anywhere. Nicholas didn’t look the way he looked on Antar. He didn’t announce his name to the other delegates. Nicholas arrived at the Summit uninvited.

Nasedo didn’t protect the Royal Four. He raised Tess. He told Tess that Kivar was her ally. But Kivar wasn’t Tess’ ally. Kivar wanted to kill her child. People who are allies don’t kill the loved children of their allies.

Nasedo used Tess for a while, to help him find Max, Michael, and Isabel. Nasedo got the Special Unit disbanded, so Max, Michael, and Isabel would trust him and so he would have an excuse to return to Roswell, so he could again attempt to get the Royal Four captured.

Nasedo wrote a note to Tess, telling her that he was her true protector. Nasedo didn’t tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the beautiful, completely intact spaceship or about the diamond key needed to operate it. Nasedo didn’t tell Tess the spaceship location or the location of the diamond key, even though he stated in his note that he knew he might die. Nasedo didn’t tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the Granilith. Nasedo didn’t translate the book for Tess (or Max or Michael or Isabel). He didn’t tell them how they had been killed on Antar. He didn’t give Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess essential information they needed to know, in the event of his death. Nasedo was Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess’ enemy.

miss3cris, you say that you think of Kal and Nasedo as bodyguards, rather than protectors. But neither Kal nor Nasedo protected Max with their lives. Neither Kal nor Nasedo lived in the same home as Max. They lived miles away from Max. Kal lived over 900 miles away from Max. Neither Kal nor Nasedo were were bodyguards. They didn’t protect.

The Skins knew that the Royal Four had been sent to Earth, and that the Royal Four had the Granilith. Kivar may have wanted them to give him the Granilith, but the Skins wanted the Granilith for themselves. Whitaker and Nicholas each tried to get the Granilith for themselves, without enlisting the help of the other Skins. Nicholas only used the other Skins to help him get the Granilith, after he failed to get it his first try.

The Skins were marooned on Earth, without any way off Earth. That is fact in the story. At the end of Harvest, Greer states that the Skins are all as good as dead. If the Skins had been in good standing with Kivar, Kivar would have left a spaceship for them to leave Earth, in order to give him the Granilith or in order to save their lives, in case of disasters like having their new husks destroyed. Or Kivar, if he cared about the Skins or trusted the Skins to give him the Granilith, would have left the Skins with the resources and expertise to build a spaceship for themselves, so they could leave Earth and give him the Granilith, when they found it.

But Kivar didn’t leave the Skins with a spaceship or the means to build one. The Skins were exiles on Earth. The Skins were sent to Earth as punishment. They were forced to live in husks they hated.

In the car on the way to Roswell, Rath reported that Zan could have ruled a planet, but he didn’t want to. Rath said the Summit members didn’t want just the royal three, they wanted the King. That is in the story. The Summit members wanted King Zan—not Kivar. The Summit members hadn’t invited Kivar, or a representative from Kivar, to the Summit in New York. The Summit members hadn’t been able to find peace with Kivar in power, after he murdered the Royal Four. The Summit members wanted King Zan, not Kivar.

Nicholas arrived at the Summit uninvited. He found out about the Summit from the Dupes. He sent Lonnie, Rath, and Ava to Roswell to get Max, so he could trick Max into giving him the Granilith at the Summit. If Nicholas had been working for Kivar, he could have had Kivar send troops to capture Max and the others in Roswell and get the Granilith from them there. We know that Kivar later came to Rowell to get Isabel. We know that Kivar wanted more than the Granilith.

Kal and Nasedo avoided Max as much as possible. Neither of them were protectors or bodyguards. Nasedo watched Max, Michael, and Isabel for months. He burned a photograph of them on the library lawn in February. He didn't tell Michael or Isabel who he was, until May, after Max was captured. He didn't warn Max, Michael, or Isabel about Pierce. He didn't kill Pierce, while Pierce was in Roswell, as Deputy Fisher. Nasedo could have murdered Pierce as easily as he killed the agent in downtown Roswell, in broad daylight. But he didn't, not even when he stood right next to Pierce in the white room. Nasedo's goal wasn't to kill Pierce. Nasedo's goal was to sequentially capture the Royal Four. Kal's goal was to keep Max from the spaceship. Both Kal and Nasedo were evil people. Each of them knowingly and intentionally harmed Max and the others, without provocation.

Hi shapeshifter!

No, Nasedo and Kal didn’t obey other Royals. Michael told Nasedo to leave the white room with them, but Nasedo didn’t. Tess told Nasedo to never leave her alone like that again, but Nasedo told her that he now had four of them to watch. Nasedo left Tess alone in Roswell, throughout the summer.

Nasedo, who some people call Tic-Tac, didn’t save Michael or preserve Michael’s identity, by killing Hank.

Hank was drunk, when Michael used his powers against Hank. Hank was a well-known drunk. No one had believed Hank’s story about Michael’s powers, when Michael was a child, and no one would have believed Hank in the present day either. In addition, as Isabel noted, it was unlikely that Hank would even remember what had happened in the morning, since Hank was so drunk.

Nasedo took Hank away, made agonized cries and shot gun blasts in the trailer, in order to alert neighbors, in order to frame Michael for Hank’s disappearance. Nasedo (also referred to as Tic-Tac) wanted Michael to be captured and held by humans.

After Michael was completely exonerated in Hank’s disappearance, Nasedo, aka Tic-Tac, pretended to the sheriff that Hank was still alive. Nasedo then buried Hank’s body, rather than destroying the body or making Hank’s death look like an accident. Nasedo (Tic-Tac) wanted to be able to frame Michael for Hank’s death at a later time. Topolsky escaped to Roswell, with the second orb, before Nasedo could get Michael arrested a second time.

After Tess told Nasedo that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family, and showed that she trusted Max and not Nasedo, that same day Nasedo immediately framed Max for all the silver handprint murders. If Max hadn’t been captured at the carnival, he would have been captured later.

If Max hadn’t followed the clues to the carnival, Nasedo would have murdered Liz at the carnival, with witnesses, so that Max would have been captured later.

Nasedo knew that Max loved Liz and had saved her life. He knew that Max would try to save her, after he kidnapped Liz. Nasedo knew that Maria had seen him take Liz. Nasedo left clues for Max to follow Liz to the carnival. At the roadside where Nasedo dumped the agent’s body, Nasedo heard that Max knew that Liz was taken by a shapeshifter, who looked like Max. Nasedo then made certain the Roswell police department received a picture of him in Max’s form at the gas station. (Nasedo had been in the Roswell police department, when he gave the FBI camera to the Sheriff. Nasedo, as Ed Harding, was able to scope out the equipment in the police department.) Max and law enforcement followed the clues to the carnival.

Nasedo framed Max for all the silver handprint crimes, in order to get Max captured and held by humans. After Max was captured at the carnival, Nasedo couldn’t kill Liz, while he was in Max’s form, because then law enforcement would know that the captured Max wasn’t the Max who murdered Liz. Nasedo couldn’t kill Liz on the bus, because someone might have seen him in Max’s form taking Liz onto the bus. Nasedo wanted law enforcement to think that they had captured the evil alien Max.

Nasedo’s goal was to get the Royal Four sequentially captured and held by humans. Nasedo may have been working for Kivar. Or Nasedo may have been working for himself alone.

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Roswelldesertsky · 05-17-2006, 03:02 AM

Hey Everyone!

I'm quite sure, the following issue has been discussed yet, but I seriously needed your help.

I've been thinking about some tattoos lately and of course they should refer to Roswell.
This thought made me take a look at the antarian letters, but I cannot really find a system. I'm convinced you are able to help me out with that, thanks a lot in advance!