Roswell - RBI # 5 : The sci-fi in Roswell - Page 3

Misha · 04-27-2006, 08:56 AM

Darn thing that seal...

I like the symbolic aspect of it, but somehow it seems that it was more important...

In Kathy's fic, The Shapeshifter Series, she says that the Seal serves for the shapeshifters to not be able to kill Zan -and if I remember correctly, it also serves for the shapeshifters to obey Zan... Kathy, where are you to explain these things??

I do agree that, for all we know, Khivar does not need the Seal to rule, and so far, we also know that it identifies who is the king, although, of course, kings can only rule when others recognize them as kings

Misha

xmag · 04-28-2006, 01:15 AM

Napoleon wasn't a royal but he named himself "Emperor". He didn't need a seal or whatever, to become the leader of the country. Now, the other countries didn't recognize him as the legitimate leader of France, though. Lots of wars at that time because of that.

But I think Khivar could lead without being a royal, or without a seal. Now, the granolith, I am sceptical. Didn't he hide the fact that he had lost it, to the other planets ? In that case, why ?

Kathy W · 04-28-2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misha

In Kathy's fic, The Shapeshifter Series, she says that the Seal serves for the shapeshifters to not be able to kill Zan -and if I remember correctly, it also serves for the shapeshifters to obey Zan...

Yep....but that's fanfiction, and all rolled into the backstory I wrote for Zan's family. Where that came from might pertain to this discussion, though. I was wondering what it was that bound Langley to obey a direct order from Max and not be able to kill him. How did Langley know that Max was who he said he was? Was it just Max that Langley had to obey/couldn't kill, or was the same true of all the hybrids? And then I wondered if the seal had something to do with it, if that triggered some sort of "program" in Langley (for lack of a better term) that rendered him incapable of killing/disobeying the bearer of the seal.

xmag: I do recall Nicholas brushing everyone off at the summit when they found out Max had the Granolith. Something like.....erg. *Curses fuzzy memory and looks it up*

NICHOLAS: "No, it's no longer on our world. Yes, we've known about it for a long time. No, Kivar decided he didn't need to tell you. And, yes, we know where it is. It's with Max."

Cheeky little brat.

xmag · 04-29-2006, 01:46 AM

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How did Langley know that Max was who he said he was? Was it just Max that Langley had to obey/couldn't kill, or was the same true of all the hybrids? And then I wondered if the seal had something to do with it, if that triggered some sort of "program" in Langley (for lack of a better term) that rendered him incapable of killing/disobeying the bearer of the seal.

Hmm, good idea. We don't really know about Langley having to obey the other royals because he never met Isabel and Michael. But while he could have been to Roswell to scare Michael, in Busted, he chose to send someone. Why ? Because he was afraid that he would have to obey him, as a member of the R4 ? I don't know.

I don't know if the seal was triggering some sort of program in Langley. After all, he attacked Max, and Max had the seal, so the seal didn't prevent Langley to try to kill the king

.

Citrus and Vine · 04-29-2006, 03:25 AM

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Originally Posted by xmag

he [Kal] attacked Max, and Max had the seal, so the seal didn't prevent Langley to try to kill the king

Right. Kal Langley couldn't personally kill Max, even though he wanted to. And Kal didn't protect Max. He told Max to never call him a protector. Kal obeyed direct, specific orders from Max. If Kal didn't interfere in Max/King Zan's life, he was free to do whatever he wanted, anywhere, any time. Kal was only constained, if he personally, directly interfered Max's life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmag

We don't really know about Langley having to obey the other royals because he never met Isabel and Michael. But while he could have been to Roswell to scare Michael, in Busted, he chose to send someone. Why ? Because he was afraid that he would have to obey him, as a member of the R4 ? I don't know.

I think the reason Kal sent Joey to Michael in Utah was because Michael had powers, and because Michael might have a gun. Max and Liz had used a gun to get to the ship. Shapeshifters, like Nasedo and Kal could die, if they were shot. So, Kal sent Joey to Michael, instead of going to Michael himself, because Kal didn't want to risk his own life personally.

Kal knew exactly where the spaceship was at all times, without anyone telling him. Kal knew that the spaceship could fly and that Max could fly the spaceship by himself. Otherwise, Kal wouldn’t have bothered to warn off Max or get Max arrested.

If Max hadn’t had the diamond key, or if the spaceship couldn’t fly, or if Max couldn’t fly the ship by himself, then Kal wouldn’t have been concerned about Max finding the spaceship.

Kal got Max arrested, because Kal knew that Max had the diamond key, and that the spaceship could fly, and that Max could fly the ship by himself.

Max didn't know that Kal got him arrested. Max thought that Kal had Joey warn him off, in order to protect Max. But Kal didn't protect Max. Kal got Max arrested. Kal physically abused Max and tried to kill Max.

Kal wanted the spaceship for himself, in case he needed or wanted to leave Earth.

Kal pretended to Max that he hadn't known that Max had the diamond key. He obeyed Max's direct, specific order to "Shapeshift. Fly the ship." Kal flew the spaceship briefly up into the air, off the supports, and then cut or stalled the engines. Max failed to go into the ship with Kal to watch him. Max failed to tell Kal where to fly the ship to. Max failed to check inside the ship, after the ship came down. Max was young and inexperienced.

xmag · 04-29-2006, 07:59 AM

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Kal obeyed direct, specific orders from Max.

Maybe he had to obey from Michael and Isabel, too but we will never know since they never came into contact with each other.

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So, Kal sent Joey to Michael, instead of going to Michael himself, because Kal didn't want to risk his own life personally.

Kal had strong powers, too, so I don't see how he would have risked his life by going to Roswell to scare Michael. He could have played the role of a human and use a gun.

Citrus and Vine · 04-29-2006, 11:26 AM

As you say, xmag, Kal Langley could have gone in person to Roswell to talk to Michael (or Isabel) any time he might choose to do so. But Kal never talked to Michael in Roswell.

Kal sent Joey Ferrini, Jr. to talk to Michael in the state of Utah. (Joey didn't talk to Michael in Roswell, New Mexico, which is in a different state. Utah lies between California and New Mexico.

)

Michael had powers and was younger than Kal. Michael could have used his powers or a gun against Kal, if Kal had confronted Michael in person. So, even though Kal could have chosen to warn off Max with a message through Michael in Salina, Utah, Kal Langely instead wanted Joey to warn off Max through Michael. Kal thought he would be safe, if he used Joey. By using Joey to give Michael the message to give to Max, Kal also freed up time to do his own things. Kal didn't have to get personally involved in any hassles he might encounter with Michael. Kal had Joey take the risk, instead of himself.

Kal's decision to use Joey proved to be a bad choice for him. Max was able to find Kal, because Kal had used Joey to warn off Max through Michael.

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xmag · 04-30-2006, 01:58 AM

Being french, american geography isn't something I know very well.I meant that Kal might have decided to not go to Utah because Michael and Isabel being there, he might have had to obey them, had he met them.

Citrus and Vine · 04-30-2006, 04:01 PM

Viva la France, xmag! Maybe the Granilith, in addition to being a transport, had special symbolic significance to other aliens, something like the way the Eiffel tower symbolizes France. Although the Eiffel tower is just a structure that people can visit, the Eiffel tower means more than that to people around the world.

It’s possible that Kal Langley used Joey to avoid being controlled by Michael. But I don’t think that the shapeshifters Kal or Nasedo were constrained to do as instructed by anyone other than Max/King Zan.

Suppose that Kal had to do exactly as Max and Michael each instructed. Then suppose that Max and Michael gave conflicting instructions. Suppose Michael instructed Kal to only obey him, and that Max instructed Kal to only obey him. Kal would short out, trying to carry out two conflicting instructions. Or suppose that Kal would obey Max, over Michael, but obey Michael as soon as Michael gave any instruction. Then any instruction Max gave Kal could be undone by Michael giving Kal an instruction. So, although it’s possible that Kal and Nasedo had to obey Michael, I think it is unlikely.

The fact that Kal and Nasedo were forced to obey Max, even when they didn’t want to, indicates to me that they were punished and controlled for past misdeeds against King Zan.

When people are truly loyal, no artificial control is needed to ensure that their support. Again, to me, the fact that Kal and Nasedo were compelled to obey Max indicates to me that they had done something wrong against Max/King Zan in the past. As long as Kal and Nasedo didn’t interfere personally and directly in Max’s life, they could do anything they wanted to do, any time, any place.

xmag · 05-02-2006, 03:00 AM

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Again, to me, the fact that Kal and Nasedo were compelled to obey Max indicates to me that they had done something wrong against Max/King Zan in the past.

If Nacedo and Kal had done something wrong in the past, why give them the most important jobs, of protectors ? Who knows if they would feel compelled to obey Max, under a human form ? The protocole could have failed due to the fact that Max was an hybrid.

Misha · 05-02-2006, 08:01 AM

xmag, I think you are right. It doesn't seem plausible that possible traitors are made to obey Zan...

I've seen theories about the shapeshifters being slaves and being bioengineer beings to protect the Royal Family. I guess anything can go, but still...

The fact that Kal had neglected his wards could be because of so many things. Fifty years is a loooooooooong time for things to change. And we do know tha Kal kept an eye from time to time on Max and the others, if only for the few words he said at the end of Control, and because he knew Max was looking for the ship in Busted!.

Is Kal loyal? He probably was -which will contradict the traitor theory- but maybe at some point he just "lost interest" on his job

I don't know, he figured out Antar wasn't all that marvellous after twenty years or so of good ol' Earth

He can't kill Max directly, and apparently, he can't command others to do so. Or, he simply didn't want Max dead... after all, Max *is* the king. He had so many opportunities, as Max told him, so....Kal might not be able to kill him, directly or indirectly, after all.

I'm not sure if it is safe to assume that Kal was also the dupes protector, but if he was, I'm willing to bet he didn't tell Zan about the obeying aspect of their relationship

Maybe that's why Kal stayed as far away from them as possible. Hhhhmmm....

Okay, I'm ranting now...

Misha

Citrus and Vine · 05-02-2006, 10:09 PM

Hi Misha and xmag and everyone!

For people who are confused about the actions of Kal and Nasedo, try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo weren't part of the 1947 crash. Consider the idea that Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth later. Then, I think, you may be able to understand why Kal and Nasedo don't behave the way we expect protectors to behave.

Think about all the ways in which Kal and Nasedo behaved as enemies.

xmag, concerning your question of whether or not shapeshifters had to obey Michael, the answer is that Nasedo didn’t obey Michael’s instructions. Nasedo didn’t obey Michael, even though Michael in the white room told Nasedo to leave with them.

MICHAEL: What are you doing, come on. (shouting)
NASEDO: I have something to take care of.
MICHAEL: No! You are not leaving me again. Let’s go!

Instead, Nasedo stayed behind in the white room. He didn’t murder Pierce, even though he stood right next to him. He refused to leave with Michael and Max, knowing that Michael wasn’t an agent. Nasedo was their enemy, not a protector. Nasedo wanted Max and Michael each sequentially captured and held by humans.

xmag, a loving parent wouldn’t send their children with protectors biased against hybrids. Instead, a loving parent, like Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother, would choose protectors who cared about Max and Isabel (and Michael and Tess), even in hybrid bodies, and even 50 years and beyond the 1947 landing.

The aliens in the 1947 crash were protectors. They personally stopped the truck with the pods. One alien was struck by the truck. The alien put the safety of the pods ahead of his own safety. The aliens on the base in 1947 were also protectors. They personally killed the doctors who were interfering with the pods. They personally endangered their own lives to save the pods. The aliens who hid the pods were also protectors. They cared about the pods.

If a person intentionally harms you, without provocation, that person is your enemy, no matter what they pretend.

Both Kal and Nasedo intentionally harmed Max, first. Max didn’t know who or where they were, until they personally and directly interfered in his life. Kal and Nasedo were each aggressors against Max/King Zan. They were his enemies. They had been programmed as punishment, in the past, to obey him, if they personally and directly interfered in his life.

Misha, Max mistakenly thought that since Kal couldn’t personally kill him, then Kal was his protector. However, Max didn’t know that Kal got Max and Liz arrested in Utah, without provocation. Max hadn’t known anything about Kal at all, at that time. Max was in the state of Utah, far away from California, where Kal lived, when Kal got Max arrested. Kal was the aggressor against Max. Kal wanted to prevent Max from flying away the spaceship.

In the story of Roswell, the audience is shown many important things that aren’t revealed to the main characters.

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xmag · 05-08-2006, 05:48 AM

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Both Kal and Nasedo intentionally harmed Max, first. Max didn’t know who or where they were, until they personally and directly interfered in his life. Kal and Nasedo were each aggressors against Max/King Zan. They were his enemies. They had been programmed as punishment, in the past, to obey him, if they personally and directly interfered in his life.

See, this is where I have a problem : WHY on earth would a parent AND a queen, who is sending her children to a far away planet to protect her kids AND the leaders the antarians are counting on, ALSO send with them people like Cal and Nacedo whom you qualified as his enemies ? You don't send enemies with your kids, even if those enemies are programmed to obey them.

In fact, you don't even let those people alive in the first place. So put them on the ship with the resurrected royal family ? It's just stupid.

Citrus and Vine · 05-08-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmag

See, this is where I have a problem : WHY on earth would a parent AND a queen, who is sending her children to a far away planet to protect her kids AND the leaders the antarians are counting on, ALSO send with them people like Cal and Nacedo whom you qualified as his enemies ? You don't send enemies with your kids, even if those enemies are programmed to obey them.

In fact, you don't even let those people alive in the first place. So put them on the ship with the resurrected royal family ? It's just stupid.

Hi xmag!

Your country France doesn't allow the death penalty. In the United States, a jury recently voted life imprisonment, instead of death, for Zacarias Moussaoui, who had wanted to be part of the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on Sept. 11, 2001, in the United States. So, depending on the crime and the views of the people, some crimes aren't punished by death.

Kal and Nasedo were punished on Antar for interfering in King Zan's life. They were programmed to obey him, if they ever directly and personally interfered in his life again. Neither Kal nor Nasedo were given a death sentence, either because their crimes hadn't been bad enough to warrant a death sentence, or because their justice system didn't allow the death penalty.

We know that other aliens came to Earth, besides the aliens in the 1947 crash. For example, aliens got cells from Laurie’s grandfather, who Michael looked like. So aliens were on Earth, before the 1947 crash. Aliens also arrived on Earth, after the 1947 crash. The Skins arrived on Earth in 1950. So we know that other alien vessels came to Earth, besides the ship that crashed in 1947.

Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth in 1958/1959, eleven or twelve years after the 1947 crash. Kal mentioned the year 1958 specifically to Max. Kal killed the actress in 1959. Nasedo murdered Atherton in 1959.

Nasedo began his silver handprint murders in 1959, in order to find Max/King Zan. For many years, he didn’t know that the Royal Four were hidden in incubation pods in the rock formation. (30 years later, Nasedo finally found Tess, after the other three had already left.)

Kal began his film career around 1958/1959. After Max and Liz got the diamond key needed to fly the spaceship, Kal got Max arrested in Utah, so that Max wouldn’t fly the spaceship away. Kal wanted and needed the spaceship, in case he wanted or needed to leave Earth.

We know more about Kal and Nasedo than the main characters know. We know that Kal knew exactly where the spaceship was on the base, even though the General didn’t tell him. We know that Kal and Nasedo each intentionally harmed Max, without provocation. We know that Kal and Nasedo behaved as enemies to Max and the others.

Kal and Nasedo had been captured and programmed as punishment on Antar to discourage them from ever interfering in King Zan’s life. After Kivar murdered the Royal Four, Kal and Nasedo got out and came to Earth in 1958/1959, on the beautiful, fully functional, completely intact spaceship they hid under the convenience store in Utah.

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Reggie · 05-09-2006, 05:21 PM

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Originally Posted by xmag

See, this is where I have a problem : WHY on earth would a parent AND a queen, who is sending her children to a far away planet to protect her kids AND the leaders the antarians are counting on, ALSO send with them people like Cal and Nacedo whom you qualified as his enemies ? You don't send enemies with your kids, even if those enemies are programmed to obey them.

In fact, you don't even let those people alive in the first place. So put them on the ship with the resurrected royal family ? It's just stupid.

Word. Even if you don't use the death penalty (and I believe there's enough evidence that the alien society did), sending villians on the same ship into the same exile as your children is foolish. Put them on different planets; now, that's more like it!

,

And I don't take it as established that Kal (or any shapeshifter) had to obey direct orders from Max or any of the kids. Remember, their duty is to protect the kids; and if that conflicts with what the kids want then the kids have to obey their protectors; not vice versa. And if you are going to constrain the protectors to obey, then why such a cramped interpretation? Wouldn't a more general admonition be better, as well as easier?

Frankly, I think that staying away from the podsters, and not serving them, was the best thing that the shapeshifters could have done for them. It taught them not to be spoiled brats; and might that not have been the problem originally? That King Zan & company were spoiled, and that's what caused the problems? Remember the things Nikolas said about Max...