Roswell - RBI # 5 : The sci-fi in Roswell - Page 2

shapeshifter · 04-21-2006, 11:06 PM

How about if the seal was biologically gender specific?
Sort of like only females give birth.

Citrus and Vine · 04-22-2006, 12:36 AM

There isn't any evidence of the Seal being biologically gender specific. There is evidence that women could have the Seal.

The important consideration for the Seal was that the Seal went to a body with royal Antarian cells. Michael was royal, but he wasn't a lineal Royal. Tess was also royal, and she also wasn't a lineal royal.

Max and Isabel were lineal Royals. Their father had been the true leader, until his death. Then the Seal went to Zan of Antar. The Seal went to the brain of a lineal Royal Antarian.

People who were royal, but who weren't lineal Royals, could have the Seal temporarily, until a lineal Royal could be given the Seal. Michael didn't want to give up the Seal. Max took it from him. Max could take the Seal from Michael, because Max was a lineal Royal Antarian.

The people of Antar and the other planets knew about the Seal and its meaning. The emissary placed his hand behind Max's head to test him. A true leader carried the Seal in the brain. Michael wouldn't have passed the emissary's test, because Michael didn't have the Seal in his brain. The emissary couldn't be fooled by someone who had the Seal, but didn't have the Seal in the brain.

Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess weren't conceived or carried in a woman's body.

They were engineered. They grew in pods, outside of any alien or human body. They weren't born in the way that humans are born. The Antarians didn't need women to host a baby inside their bodies.

The Royal Four were murdered by Kivar. Kivar, who was male, didn’t get the Seal.

Max and Isabel's Antarian mother survived the deaths of the Royal Four. She was female. She had the Seal. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus, before he landed on Earth. Max had the Seal, when he emerged from his pod. He had the Seal, when he was tested by the emissary.

Hope that helps.

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Reggie · 04-23-2006, 09:39 AM

Citrus and Vine:
There isn't any evidence of the Seal being biologically gender specific. There is evidence that women could have the Seal.

Really? Do tell: Where is it?

The important consideration for the Seal was that the Seal went to a body with royal Antarian cells. Michael was royal, but he wasn't a lineal Royal. Tess was also royal, and she also wasn't a lineal royal.
.....
Max and Isabel's Antarian mother survived the deaths of the Royal Four. She was female. She had the Seal. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus, before he landed on Earth. Max had the Seal, when he emerged from his pod. He had the Seal, when he was tested by the emissary.

Well, you'd think that Tess was as "royal" as Max's mother; or rather, that neither were "lineal royal". If both Max's parents were "lineal royal", then they'd be related to each other.

Hey! that explains a lot!

Max and Isabel were lineal Royals. Their father had been the true leader, until his death. Then the Seal went to Zan of Antar. The Seal went to the brain of a lineal Royal Antarian.

People who were royal, but who weren't lineal Royals, could have the Seal temporarily, until a lineal Royal could be given the Seal. Michael didn't want to give up the Seal. Max took it from him. Max could take the Seal from Michael, because Max was a lineal Royal Antarian.

The people of Antar and the other planets knew about the Seal and its meaning. The emissary placed his hand behind Max's head to test him. A true leader carried the Seal in the brain. Michael wouldn't have passed the emissary's test, because Michael didn't have the Seal in his brain. The emissary couldn't be fooled by someone who had the Seal, but didn't have the Seal in the brain.

Gobbldygook. Max was marked with the "royal seal", so that his human body would be recognisable as the one carrying the "essence" of King Zan; as opposed to an impostor. Max's dupe "Zan" might or not have had it; I don't know.

The whole business of the migrating seal only appeared in S3, when we know they'd discarded any thoughts of continuity or logic. IMHO, it's drek.

Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess weren't conceived or carried in a woman's body.

They were engineered. They grew in pods, outside of any alien or human body. They weren't born in the way that humans are born. The Antarians didn't need women to host a baby inside their bodies.

This relates to the seal how?

The Royal Four were murdered by Kivar. Kivar, who was male, didn’t get the Seal.

But he did get the throne, didn't he? And expected to keep it as well. So the Royal Seal doesn't seem all that important.

*New tagline coming soon!

Misha · 04-23-2006, 10:22 AM

Just a quick fly-by because I'm sumerged in the world of Fanfiction

Reggie, your idea that the Royal Seal is not so important is very interesting. Probably the Seal serves only as some sort of ID. I mean, on a society where shapeshifters are around, it would be wise to have some way to certify that your ruler is really your ruler

(Thanks to Kathy for that explanation on her fic

)

On the other hand, like Isabel so wisely said once: You want to be the leader? See how it works without any followers. Are the people on Antar obligued to follow whoever has the Seal? I think not...

We don't know if the Seal has any meaning beyond identifying the "true" king. We don't even know if Zan had the Seal either, which would be confusing because then you would have two true kings...

Or if there's more to it... But as you said, Khivar is ruling without the darn thing.... Okay, he has a civil war on his hands, but he's still up there

Now I'll go back to my fanfics

Misha

xmag · 04-23-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Max and Isabel's Antarian mother survived the deaths of the Royal Four. She was female. She had the Seal. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus, before he landed on Earth.

That's YOUR opinion, not a fact. It was never said anywhere, in the show, that Max's mother had the seal, or inherited it. For all we know, the seal could have gone to the Granolith ? After all, who knows what that device really was. If women could inherit the seal, Isabel or Tess would have inherited it the second after Max had died. Isabel was alive when Max turned to dust so the seal should have jumped to her.

But it looked like the seal never went to Isabel but to Michael. Isabel was injured, but still alive so had she had the seal, even for a short time, she should have had it until her death and then, and only then, would it have transfered to Michael.

NOw the question is, what was the seal ? A way to identify the king, since it was used to identify Max in NY. But it also seemed to provide the healing abilities, since Michael was able to heal Isabel while Max couldn't heal. I haven't seen the third season in a while but wasn't there a scene where Max was trying to heal himself and failed ? I remember Michael healing his hand, pushing him to realise that he was the king.

So the healing abilities were linked to the king.

Misha · 04-23-2006, 04:20 PM

Maybe it was the whole package

Seal, Healing ability and Cool Green Shield all in one

You know, that way, the Seal doesn't mean healing powers, it just goes to the next person... all three things go together but independently...

Now, of course, I'm assuming that Michael aslo got the cool green shield, because Max wasn't able to use it. I've tried to find an explanation as to why would Max be unable to use his unique abilities but he could use all the "share" ones... :misha pauses to keep thinking: Okay, I give up... Maybe the Seal does carry those powers then

When it "deactivated" from Max, it also rendered him unable to reach those abilities... And when it activated on Michael, he was able to reach those...

Am I making sense?

The only problem I have with the Seal is that it changed Michael. Unless Antarians are like Kringlons (sp?) I don't see how Michael would be suitable to lead with that character and impulsiveness... But then again, this has nothing to do with the discussion about the Seal and Max's powers... sorry, ranting here

Now, if it was gender related.... I'll get back to this...

Okay, we know that Zan Jr. was ruled out by Khivar because he was too human (sorry, I can't swallow that he was *completely* human, at least some recesive genes must have gone there!), but, genetically speaking, he is Max's son. Why didn't the Seal go to him? What is it on Max's essence from the original Zan that matters here?

So, Zan Jr. didn't get any of that essence and the Seal by pass him... Why to Michael? Maybe we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Maybe, on Antar, when things are not chaotic as now, the Seal would follow a logical path from father to son, or heir, or whatever. But when whoever was planning the Seal on Max, a hybrid, he/she/it decided that, in case of Max's dead, Michael should have it. Why? Who knows! But it would explain why we can't find a logical path here, since we know that Rath wasn't married yet to Vilandra, so he had no real claim to the throne yet, and that Isabel must have been a logical choice (yes, I'm keeping aside the gender theory here).

I think xmag's theory about Zan not wanting Khivar to gain the Seal and so choosing Rath could work. Maybe Zan knew about this plan and so told the bioengineers to ensure that, if his duplicate died, Rath's duplicate got the Seal.

Yeah, it might do....

Now I'll go to ponder these things over...

Misha

Citrus and Vine · 04-23-2006, 09:03 PM

xmag, we know that the Seal went to Michael and not to the Ganilith, after Max died. The Seal appeared on Michael’s chest. So we can also surmise that the Seal didn’t go to the Granilith, after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had been murdered by Kivar on Antar.

Kivar didn’t get the Seal. Michael, who wasn’t a lineal Royal Antarian, got the Seal. Max, who was a lineal Royal Antarian, was able to take the Seal away from Michael.

The Seal resided in a living person, not an object. The Granilith was an object, not a person. Max lost the Seal, when he died healing Clayton. Even though the Seal could be in a body with human qualities, such as an alien-human hybrid body, the Seal couldn’t be in any body lacking Antarian cells. Clayton’s body couldn’t have the Seal, until Max grew Antarian cells inside in Clayton’s body.

Max and Michael each sequentially had the Seal, but in different ways. Max and Michael each believed that there was more to the Seal than just identifying who was in charge.

Michael’s bad behavior is an important part of the Roswell story. Michael’s behavior changed, after Max returned to Roswell, after Max had died. Max, who had been the acknowledged leader of the group earlier, was now alive again.

Michael noticed that he had healed his own hand. He hadn’t been able to heal his own black eye, after Hank abused him. Michael hadn’t healed himself after Grant shot him. Michael believed that the fact he healed himself meant that he had changed. Michael believed that the Seal gave him the power to heal his hand. He also believed that the Seal meant that he was in now in charge. Michael, who had been abused by people with power, mistakenly believed that an outward symbol meant a person was in charge. But no one followed Michael, when he behaved badly. Being a good leader requires more than an outward symbol. Michael began acting so badly, that Max had to take the Seal from him.

The Seal was meant, or designed, or intended, or affiliated on a permanent basis for a lineal, Royal Antarian person only. Someone like Michael, who wasn’t a lineal Royal, couldn’t keep the Seal for himself. Someone like Michael could have the Seal temporarily, until a lineal Royal person was given the Seal or took the Seal.

Michael helped Isabel, after the doctor had helped to save her life. Isabel’s condition had stabilized. Michael placed his hand on Isabel’s arm, the way Max had placed his hand on Grandma Caudia’s hand, when he attempted to revive Grandma Claudia long enough for Liz to say goodbye. Max hadn’t tried to heal Grandma Claudia. Michael’s powers and his conversation with Isabel brought Isabel back. Isabel said to Michael, “I heard, Michael. I heard you. I was somewhere else, but I followed your voice back.” Michael’s words and his energy brought her back.

Max, Michael, and Tess are each shown healing people. So it wasn’t necessary for a person to have the Seal to be able to heal. Max couldn’t heal Kyle’s injured hand after Max had healed Clayton’s old, aged body, and after Max saved Liz from falling, and after Max died again from the fall.

Max couldn’t heal Kyle’s injured hand, because Max hadn’t fully recovered from the fall, and from everything he had done prior to the fall. Max needed more time for his own powers to return. For example, Max’s powers slowly recovered, after Max healed the children in the hospital. Max’s powers didn’t come back all at once, even while he had the Seal.

Max had superior healing powers, while he had the Seal. Max was able to bring people back to life, if the person hadn’t been dead too long or too badly injured. Max’s powers had limitations. Max, while he had the Seal, couldn’t bring Alex back to life or Nasedo back to life, after Whitaker fatally injured him.

Some people have assumed that if Isabel were in line to receive the Seal, she would have immediately received the Seal upon Max’s death. That isn’t the case. Here’s why Isabel didn’t get the Seal, after Max died.

Max died healing Clayton. But Max lived on in Clayton’s body. Max wasn’t completely gone. Max still retained his identity of Zan of Antar, the real, true Antarian leader, even while in Clayton’s body. Max was still the same person, even when he was in another body.

The Seal appeared on Michael’s chest. If the Seal had instead gone to Isabel, the Seal would have been in her brain. She wouldn’t be able to give the Seal to Max, without her dying. Max wouldn’t have been able to take the Seal from her, without killing her. (Max only lost the Seal, when he died. Lineal Royal Antarians couldn’t give the Seal to another person and live. Lineal Royal Antarians couldn’t have the Seal taken from them, except through dying.)

Because Max was still alive in Clayton’s body, after healing Clayton, the Seal wasn’t activated in Isabel. The Seal existed in Michael, until Max grew Antarian cells, which would enable him to take back the Seal from Michael, which was rightfully his. Max was the rightful, legitimate leader of Antar.

Michael and Tess (if Tess had lived) could only have the Seal temporarily. Only a lineal Royal Antarian could be the legitimate leader of Antar, which the people on Antar and the people of the other planets knew.

Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother, like Michael, wasn’t a lineal Royal. Michael was chosen. Max and Isabel’s Anatarian mother, like Michael, was a chosen royal. Like Michael, she, too, could temporarily have the Seal, until she could give the Seal to Zan (Max), after Kivar killed him, because he was the rightful leader of Antar. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus. Max had the Seal, when he landed on Earth as a fetus. He had the Seal when he emerged from his pod. He had the Seal, when he was tested by the emissary.

In the story of Roswell, each main character has leadership qualities, which are vital to everyone. While Zan of Antar had been the rightful leader during his life on Antar, he chose to share the leadership position with three other people. The four were known as the Royal Four, even to their enemies the Skins. Good leaders work together with other people for the benefit of all.

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shapeshifter · 04-23-2006, 10:25 PM

Just a little meta-Roswell Theory epiphany...
Nowhere does it say that the Seal is gender-specific.

But neither is it written that it is not gender-specific.

Similarly, I don't think the momogram or Larek or anyone revealed that Max & Isabel's mother had the Royal Seal (correct me if I'm wrong).

But neither is it stated that dear ol' Mum didn't have the seal.

So, if I make up a plot hole filler that says the Seal was gender-specific, or if Citrus makes up a plot line that involves Mom placing the Royal Seal in the head of Max-as-a-fetus, then those are theories, and don't have to be cannon.

Does that make sense?

About the Seal, when Max waved his hand over baby Zan's head, we saw a pattern of stars like the Seal Max had when the Emissary checked him out. Max's Earth Mom said, "What was that?" and Max replies, "Just something for him to remember me by."
Am I the only one who thought, "A-ha! Max just gave baby Zan the Royal Seal!"?

P.S. Misha, I'm enjoying your ideas. Have you ever posted on the forums using a different screen name?

Citrus and Vine · 04-23-2006, 10:39 PM

Other people also wondered if Max had given baby Zan the Seal.

However, I think Max was truthful in saying that he had given his child a memory. I think Max wanted baby Zan to know that he was loved, even though his biological parents couldn't raise him. Max knew what it had been like for Michael, Isabel, and himself, when they didn't know or remember their pasts. Perhaps Max made it possible for his child to recognize him in the future, if they ever met again.

I don't think that Max could give baby Zan or anyone else the Seal of Antar, unless Max died. Max had the Seal in his brain. When Max died, he lost the Seal.

Max loved his child and gave him up for adoption, to safeguard his life. If Max had given baby Zan the Seal, then baby Zan's life would be endangered.

If baby Zan could have inherited the Seal, then Kivar would have killed Max, and baby Zan would have gotten the Seal. But Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan, because baby Zan was entirely human and couldn't have the Seal. Kivar knew that baby Zan was Max's child and could grow up to support the people who supported Max/King Zan. So Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan.

The Seal didn't transfer with Max into Clayton's entirely human body. After Max grew Antarian cells in Clayton's body, Max was able to take the Seal from Michael. The Seal couldn't be in a body lacking Antarian cells.

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Kathy W · 04-24-2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shapeshifter

So, if I make up a plot hole filler that says the Seal was gender-specific, or if Citrus makes up a plot line that involves Mom placing the Royal Seal in the head of Max-as-a-fetus, then those are theories, and don't have to be cannon.

Does that make sense?

Sure it does. Any made up plot hole filler/theory can't be cannon anyway. Of course, it also makes sense to recognize that such made up plot hole fillers are indeed made up, and not present them as cannon. I believe that's what people are objecting to.

Citrus and Vine · 04-24-2006, 03:40 PM

Hi Everyone!

shapeshifter and Kathy W, in my opinion, there is sufficient information given in the story to understand things.

In real life, people use the information they know to figure things out. Likewise, we can figure things out from information in the story of Roswell.

shapeshifter, I wish to continue our conversation of whether or not the Seal of Antar was biologically gender specific.

Here are facts we know from the story.

Lineage was a consideration on Antar. (Maz-Zan’s father had been the leader, before his son was crowned.)

The Seal could be in a body with parts that weren’t of Antarian lineage. (Max was an alien-human hybrid, when he had the Seal.)

The Seal could be transferred by person-to-person direct contact. (Max took the Seal from Michael.)

Clayton’s completely human body didn’t receive the Seal, even though Max made direct contact with Clayton’s body.

The Seal could be in a body of someone not directly related to the Royal lineage. (Michael, who wasn’t Max and Isabel’s biological brother, got the Seal.)

Kivar didn’t get the Seal, even though he murdered King Zan and was in direct contact with him.

Liz pointed out that maybe Michael got the Seal, as a back-up. Liz also pointed out in an earlier episode that you can tell the sex of a person from their blood.

People can receive blood transfusions from men or from women. Gender doesn’t affect the usefulness of blood transfusions. Michael, who was male, was a match for a blood transfusion for Isabel, who was female.

Now consider again, Liz’s idea that Michael got the Seal, as a back-up plan. Michael, even though he wasn’t Max and Isabel’s biological brother, got the Seal. So Michael could have been given a specific identifying factor, which enabled his body to have the Seal.

A back-up plan was also evidently in place on Antar, before King Zan was murdered. Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother, like Michael, could have been given a specific identifying factor, which enabled her body to have the Seal.

Someone got the Seal, after the Royal Four were all murdered. We know that Max got the Seal, after he had been murdered on Antar. So, to me, the most-likely person to have been part of the back-up plan on Antar was Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother. Just like blood transfusions aren’t gender-specific, so having the Seal didn’t need to be gender-specific, either.

As has been pointed out before, the fact that shapeshifters existed meant that it was important to have a way of identifying people. Zan of Antar was identifiable by having the Seal of Antar. Likewise, it would have been important to have an identifiable factor for other people. Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother, and Isabel/Vilandra, and Tess/Ava, and Michael/Rath would have needed to be distinguishable from shapeshifters, so that imposters couldn’t take their place. Isabel/Vilandra could have already had an identifiable marker in her at birth on Antar, because she was Zan of Antar’s biological sister. Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother, and Rath of Antar, and Ava of Antar could have been given a factor, which marked them and also made it possible for them to have the Seal, on a temporary basis, as a back-up plan for the Seal.

Michael was the back-up for the Seal for Max, in the event of Max’s death. Michael could have the Seal temporarily, until Max could be in a new body with lineal, Antarian factors. If Max and Michael had both been murdered at the same time, then Isabel, like Michael, could have gotten the Seal.

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Misha · 04-24-2006, 04:04 PM

A fly by! four minutes and I go home!!! (from the office to my very earthly home... no spaceships involve... sigh...)

shapeshifter, yeah, I thought about Max and the Seal with Zan... but the pattern is not the same. Go, check it out, I'll wait...

He said to Diane "It's just a memory." I remember the CHADs saying that how could Max do that, since mind tricks were Tess's department... but there, it wasn't the Seal... that or Max got the Seall all wrong...

Nope, I've always posted with Misha, but I mainly discuss Roswell theories at the POD's thread

Nice place! we are very friendly!! Right, Kathy??

I love Roswell discussions!! I'll stick around for a whle as lone as there's something interesting to pond about

About canon (or is cannon???), all theories are great, as long as they don't stumble or crash any canon we actually got to see. I'm always for a good debate, and seeing options, even opposite ones (like the NasedoPact, was it real or not) as long as all arguments can stand for themselves

Misha

shapeshifter · 04-24-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

...Max loved his child and gave him up for adoption, to safeguard his life. If Max had given baby Zan the Seal, then baby Zan's life would be endangered. ....

Good point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrus and Vine

...If baby Zan could have inherited the Seal, then Kivar would have killed Max, and baby Zan would have gotten the Seal....

Hmmm...
Or, perhaps Khivar would have wanted to kill Baby Zan to prevent him from getting the Seal. It would stand to reason that an important item in Khivar's agenda was getting the Seal for himself.

Citrus and Vine · 04-25-2006, 12:48 AM

I, too, think Kivar was interested in who could have the Seal.

Kivar didn't get the Seal, after he murdered the Royal Four on Antar. Kivar wasn't a lineal Royal Antarian. He couldn't personally have the Seal.

Baby Zan also couldn't have the Seal. Baby Zan was completely human. He didn’t get the Seal, when Max died.

The people of Antar and the other planets knew about the Seal. The Seal identified the legitimate alien leader of Antar, when Max had been Zan of Antar. The Seal didn’t identify human inheritance. The Seal identified the alien part of Max, not the human part of Max. The Seal was an alien identifier, for aliens.

xmag · 04-27-2006, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Or, perhaps Khivar would have wanted to kill Baby Zan to prevent him from getting the Seal. It would stand to reason that an important item in Khivar's agenda was getting the Seal for himself.

And still, Khivar has been ruling for 50 human years, without the seal and without the granolith. So why would he want the seal ? Maybe it's like a crown, something more symbolic rather than a weapon ?