Roswell - Cherishing Max & Liz #637: One night a shooting star, he traveled far, came to my door, just to ask me to dance.

**naturellebella** · 02-27-2009, 08:12 PM

Welcome to the Max and Liz Appreciation Thread

Everything - Lifehouse
find me here
and speak to me
I want to feel you
I need to hear you
you are the light
that's leading me
to the place
where I find peace again

you are the strength
that keeps me walking
you are the hope
that keeps me trusting
you are the life
to my soul
you are my purpose
you're everything

and how can I
stand here with you
and not be moved by you
would you tell me
how could it be
any better than this yeah

you calm the storms
and you give me rest
you hold me in your hands
you won't let me fall
you still my heart
and you take my breath away
would you take me in
take me deeper now

and how can I
stand here with you
and not be moved by you
would you tell me
how could it be
any better than this

and how can I
stand here with you
and not be moved by you
would you tell me
how could it be
any better than this

cause you're all I want
you're all I need
you're everything
everything

you're all I want
you're all I need
you're everything
everything

you're all I want
you're all I need
you're everything
everything

you're all I want
you're all I need
you're everything
everything

and how can I
stand here with you
and not be moved by you
would you tell me
how could it be
any better than this

and how can I
stand here with you
and not be moved by you
would you tell me
how could it be
any better than this
would you tell me
how could it be
any better than this

by Arosia

by naturellebella
------------------

M&L Survivors
Made about specific moments from certain seasons and voted on by the people that know the couple the best - the dreamers.
Season 1 Survivor - Winner is #16 - Sexual Healings

2nd Place - Destiny

Third Place - Pilot

Season 2 Survivor - Winner is #5 - The End of World

Second Place - The Departure

Third Place - Viva Las Vegas

more to come!

Season 3 Survivor - Winner is #18 - Graduation

Second Place - Chant Down Babylon

Third Place - Busted

------------------

**naturellebella** · 02-27-2009, 08:13 PM

Max&Liz Weddings:

Artwork

Christmas poem by KenL:
Liz is in the kitchen baking an apple pie,
with visions of Christmas flashing before her eyes.
Little Liz is making noise in the living room,
while Michael is walking up the driveway wearing a Santa suit.
Max is at the door greeting Santa Claus,
who has just arrived carrying a bag of toys.
A Christmas celebration is underway,
creating lasting memories on this festive day.[/size]

Arts credited to Liz, Coccy & Naturellebella.

Quotes from cast and crew on Max & Liz (Jason & Shiri):

"It was more about... without you i couldn't become the person I'm now. And I think that throughout the season no matter what has happened.. good or bad.. it made these people who they're i think that's the way it is with life. That choices that we make in our lives and the people that we know help us, in one way or another, be the people we're. And that moment he was thanking her for helping open his eyes to a complete different world. She's a sane voice, some sort of reasoning. The person that he trust the most is Liz who knows him better, I think, than anybody" - Jason Behr (about the last scene from A Roswell Christmas Carol)

"The Max-Liz connection works so well, as is so popular with "Roswell"'s fans, because, in Moore's opinion, "It's very romantic in the classic sense of the word. Max is a young man from another planet, with secrets. He saved her life in the first episode, and they became soulmates across time and space. It's a classic set-up. Beyond that, the appeal of their relationship has a great deal to do with the chemistry between Shiri Appleby and Jason Behr." - Ron Moore, co-executive producer & writer Ron Moore talks Roswell in Dec Starlog.

"The episodes that I have really found have worked in that way are the pilot episode, which works really well because that’s really, to me, Romeo and Juliet. It’s really about two people meeting and falling in love, but not being able to be together, and I think it grabs you in that way." - Jason Katims, executive producer and creator of the Roswell talks about Roswell episodes that he thinks is a real top television moment.

"Heart and Soul of Roswell, I think that Jason [Katims] would share this opinion, has always been the relationship between Max and Liz. That's where the plot begins. He saved her life and he exposes himself at the same time. The love between those two characters is fundamental to the show's success. - Ron Moore, Roswell season 2 DVD, Ask Not commentary

"When we did this scene you just kind of expect that this scene's going to be great. You know it's gonna be great because their chemistry is so good together but then watching it a few years later and seeing how good they are together, you know that doesn’t come off - It's not that easy for that to happen. When you have chemistry... we were very lucky with the two of them, what great chemistry the two of them have together on the screen. For three years they could still do a scene like that and could still kinda get you. That’s pretty amazing."
(Jason Katims, graduation commentary of the proposal scene)

"I though he was an amazing choice for Max. He really does have that intensity — just the way he looks at Liz —and you feel the longing. I always felt that Max was the cautious, responsible and a good person, but with all this bubbling underneath. I think he really conveys that, which is hard to do,because it's all internal." Melinda Metz (Soap Opera Weekly)

"I love that! he's a kid! He's a kid, he doesn't care about his "destiny", he's not a captain Kirk. He doesn't care about his unseen planet he just found out about. What he cares about is a very human thing. He cares about this girl. He loves her and she loves him. It's the world to him! That's what it's primary in his mind. And I think that's what the show is about. That's what brings people to this show is this strong love between them" (Ronald Moore about the "I'm coming for you Liz" scene- Ask Not commentary)

"That moment to me seems like a transcendent moment. It's the gift he gives to her. It's him thanking her for being there for him and being a friend.
And it's not a moment about them getting together as a boyfriend and girlfriend. It's beyond that(...) he's able to go to her even with everything that they've been through" (Jason Katims - A Roswell Christmas Carol commentary of the "I believe in you" scene )

"The moment you look at Shiri you know why Max is in love with her: she was so REAL" (Thania St. John- The Balance commentary)

"And then enter Liz. And you know we're playing. One of the great things about season two was playing Max chasing Liz. You know I thought that was a really fun thing. I think it really said a lot about his feeling for her. That he wasn't willing to give it up and that, you know, you were awaiting for for her resolve to weaken and hoping she's gonna go back into his arms." (Ronald Moore about the "I'm coming for you Liz" scene- Ask Not commentary)

"We're going to play things a little lighter in some instances. But the relationships are still going to carry forward, because they are the heart and soul of the show. The Liz-Max relationship is front and center, right from the first episode." (Ronald Moore's interview )

"People will go to any length if they love someone..." "These two people. They weren't acting at this point. This was real stuff."
(David Nutter, Blood Brother's commentary scene "I guess these are the things you do when...when you feel a certain way about someone."")

"Look at how great these two are together. Romeo and Juliet" (David Nutter - Secrets and Lies commentary)

"I love the music in this episode--especially the love theme between Max and Liz. This was just magical stuff and I think...I know that with the great combination of Snuffy Walden and Joe Williams...I think there was a real great musical fanatic that really helped I think bond these two characters and also get a sense of sadness because of the fact that they can never ultimately be together. I think it pulls the audience in even more..." (David Nutter)

"and here it comes. That's the moment where they know in their hearts that they're in love with each other. They've never said it. He doesn't actually say it now either. But what he's telling her is 'I'm breaking out with you because I'm in love with you' - and the pain in her heart right now is making her angry yet she understands. But she's still so alone when he walks down that... and we know that they belong together and they're in love and what Max is doing right now is for the good of both of them. And half way thought our first season we've broken them up and yet we've completely allowed them to profess their love for each other at the same time.
We've given ourselves more fodder for the back half of the season because the love story really needed a wrench thrown into it. We wanted to see what it was like for them to be so happy so that we would know ultimately what they needed to search for and find and live thorough the pain to get there again. (Thania St. John- The Balance commentary, last scene when M&L broke up)

Q: My question is about the amazing looks you give Max (Jason) during your scenes together. What are you thinking or what experiences do you draw from for those steamy eyes you have?
A: (Shiri Appleby): While Jason and I are looking into each other's eyes I just think about the most pure love possible because their relationship is based strictly on the heart. What they share is what I someday hope to find.
__________________

A Tribute to us Dreamers on The Cherishing Thread and our contribution to Fan Forum History
~Posted by our Fan Forum Administrator Jerry D~
Hi everyone! I don’t know if you all know this, but the Cherishing Max & Liz thread was the very first shipper thread in all of Fan Forum! I used to think the Dawson and Joey shipper thread on the Dawson’s Creek board was the very first shipper thread here, but the person who started that thread actually got the idea from this thread, so you Max and Liz fans (and I consider myself to be a Max and Liz fan) started a tradition of expressing your love and support for your favorite couple that has been copied on almost every board here, so bravo to all of you! I’m glad to see that so many people still post on this thread.

"There couldn't have been a better way to end the series. The talented young cast make the most of their moments, with Behr and Appleby especially strong as the starcrossed lovers Max and Liz. When the two look at each other across the room during a moment of great danger, their look is so full of love that the moment is one that seems destined from the very first episode when Max saved Liz's life and we discovered how much he'd always loved her. And that's what this series was really about"~Kathie Huddleston, SciFiWeekly
-----------------------------------------------------------------

~ Future Thread Titles ~
-He couldn't be without her.
-Her kisses made him feel heaven.
-They couldn't bare to be apart.
-She brought him back.
-Liz couldn't give Max alien herpes....but Tess could!
-She's his everything and he proved it with his life
-In the show, all the books..their love is always amazing
-Fate kicked "Destiny's" ass!
-If the van's rocking, don't bother knocking!
-Because she's the first image that people always saw into Max's mind.
-Because wherever they went... they were there when they got back.
-Because when he got his priorities in order, she was at the top of the list
-Because every kiss and smile came as natural as breathing.
-Because they are each other's destiny
-Because she would go anywhere if it means being with him
-Even after his body became dust, his soul still loved and only wanted her
-Because when he came out from behind the tree, Liz was all he could see
-Because he healed her with his hands and she saved him with a kiss
-A couple who made all their dreams come true
-He loves her and she loves him. It's the world to him.
-....so we'll take those 12 days and we'll live 12 life times

Previous thread.

Wes&FredFan · 02-27-2009, 11:11 PM

Hey, Max/Liz fans

. I shipped them the moment I saw the pilot! They rocked Roswell.

*Coccy* · 02-28-2009, 05:30 AM

Wes&FredFan welcome!

thank you for the new thread!
i love the title <3 <3

ask a girl to dance

his fav teacher! lol

Venus
"i thought she was right in from on me" <3 <3

they're the cutest couple ever

stop me LOL everytime i look for caps of their scenes it seems that i want to post the whole episode

they're irresistible!

from that episode i love the end scene, the one at the beginning when they were at the crashdown looking at each other with sparks in their eyes (on their forehead you could almost read " we kissed we kissed we kissed!!!!" lol it was so obvious! how cute) the scene when they were trying to talk with river dog and Liz was scared for Max and he touched her cheek

i also love the commentary of the episode that Thanya did and what she said about them (the quotes in the intro)
she was one of my fav writers along with Katims because she really loved the characters and her episodes weren't never stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturellebella (View Post)

Maybe, if she had shown a tad bit of remorse then things would have gone a bit better. I mean, not a whole lot better since she's obviously a killer but since she didn't really act like she cared about what she did I think it's what sent Max over the edge to almost killing her. He trusted her & it's like she spat in his face and almost laughed.

totally.
into a way it wasn't too traumatic because after all none of them really knew her, she wasn't a real friend so the betrayal couldn't feel so bad like when someone you really love betray you.
If i can be honest he didn't seem soo surprised either even if he still gave her the change to explain. He wasn't hurt by her betrayal or shocked. He just hated that he did a mistake and fell into her trap. (also most likely he secretly thought "thank God!" ... come on you know he did just like us lol)

notice that none of them really talked about her betrayal as someone that hurt them. they were angry but they didn't react as people who felt betrayed by a friend. you know what i mean?
she was the enemy. no more no less.
if people watch only the third season without knowing about the second one i bet that they wouldn't even understand who was the mother of baby Zan because no one talked about her as the mother. it was always only "Max's son".
Max himself never talked about her. he didn't even say her name. he said "someone like me" or "it" or "the enemy". everything he wanted to do was to find and save the baby he didn't care about finding her too.
even his reaction when she came back and then she died was emotionless he wasn't surprised that she killed all those people, he wasn't surprised that she lied about the baby and other things

i don't know if he would have killed her. maybe. he was ready to do it and angry (i never understood *what* he wanted to do with his hand like that). but he was never a killer so maybe without the baby he would have hurt her

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They are definitely the central characters in the show too. Ya know, this is another reason why I am happy we got a Season 3 b\c if it had ended the way it did in Season 2 it would be like great, there's a prospect of them getting back together but look at all that has happened to get here. It was so nice to go into Season 3 knowing that they were together and even though they had their problems during the S3 they ended up married by the end.

me too.
also.. i LOVE chant down babylon.
their relationship went beyond even death.
their love is so profound that they can win even against death and that was the ultimate proof that M&L are the real thing. they aren't just a legend created by someone who had her own agenda.

it's sad that Max had to die and Liz felt it but the message of that episode is wonderful.
they're real soulmates. like no other couple i ever saw because with them it's really proved with something CONCRETE
i love that she really was his everything. he survived only for her. she's everything he saw before dying. he loved and protected her even after his death and she saved him! Max's love for her and her love for him saved him
i love the scene where she hugged Clayton/Max and he got all those flashes from M&L connection. he saw the star and the sweet memories of the first time they saw each other when they were just kids and he already knew that she was the one for him. that connection made Max's soul stronger and later he could take over and talk with her.

also thank to the third season we got an amazing ending with them married and happy.
i wanted nothing more.
if we consider the books (that can be considered canon because they're official) we even know that they will start a family.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celebrianna (View Post)

Regarding Kyle and Isabel, I'm a closet fan of theirs. But I also don't mind Jesse and Isabel. I think I'm slightly fonder of Kyle and Isabel though.

ditto. i'm open for both. even if my real choice would be Alex and Isabel

at least in the books they're friends in the end

anyway i can't be totally against Jesse&Isabel because they loved each other.
and when love is involved i don't want to destroy couples at any cost.
even if their relationship was weak i can't cancel canon.
i don't want to confuse what i want to happen with what the characters really felt.
even if Jesse&Isabel were nothing like Max&Liz or even Michael&Maria.

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Coccy, I just wanted to say that I understand what you mean about Tess and her inconsideration towards Max on that night that they slept together. I guess we can draw a parallel between that scene and the scene where Max and Liz were in the desert that night in Sexual Healing. In the Sexual Healing scene, Max asked Liz if she was sure she wanted to go all the way. I guess you're saying that Tess should've shown a similar consideration for Max knowing the mental turmoil he was experiencing in that moment. And Jasper, I also agree that Max should bear the responsibility for his actions and he did. He knew he screwed up and told Isabel just that when he said he felt so irresponsible and stupid.

yes. Max would never do something like that with Liz.
but even those scenes were different because Max&Liz were together, they loved each other and they knew it. and most important no one of them was into such a bad state. still he asked. he CARED. he always did.
when Max slept with Tess he wasn't himself (again, even the writers said it), they weren't a couple, they weren't even real friends. she totally took advantage of the situation. she knew that he was into a bad state, she knew the whole truth about Alex's death and that Liz was right. she knew that she was the one who created it all and he was into that state for her fault too.

people always take for granted that only the man is the one who uses women but it's not always true.
we women can use people as well. it's just more subtle.
i also hate that the day after she tried to make him feel guilty because he didn't look happy. seriously that was too much and mean.

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About tv couples, its true that good ones are rare and especially so nowadays. Max and Liz is probably my number 1 favorite. I also love Lois & Clark from Superman Adventures, Mick & Beth from Moonlight and Sydney & Vaughn from Alias.

About Dawson's Creek, I was never a fan. However, I liked Dawson and Joey though I didn't really like Joey that much. �*

my fav couples are more the ones from movies and novels. guess why

i'm not so crazy about shippers. i love "love" in general and when i see two people in love with each other i support the shippers. but not hard core like for M&L
my other fav couples from tv-shows are Ally&Larry (Ally&Billy too) from Ally McBeal, Derek&Meredith, Jin&Sun, Desmond&Penny....

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Regarding Liz gaining more sympathy from the audience in Season 2, I can see that. However, with me it was different. It's probably because I usually watch the entire season in a day so I get the entire picture better. It's not spaced over several months like it probably was on tv so I clearly saw where both Liz and Max were at fault. Also, I think that females tend to sympathize more with the girl because she's more relatable to them.

true.
even if the same thing didn't happen in the third season for Maria... so i don't know.
maybe the core reason is that when you're used to characters that seem "perfect" (example season 1 Max) it's hard to understand them when they're not perfect.

some people, and this happens in real life too, can justify bad characters because they were always like that. But then they crucify good characters just because of a single mistake.

making an extreme example of what i mean: in real life people would always save Barabbas instead of Jesus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper1975 (View Post)

Yup. She could have stopped when Nasedo died. But she went ahead with the plans. And deviated on her own path. It's on her for what she did. Whether Alex was not intentional or not. It happened. She could have tried to go to Max and see if he could save Alex but she didn't.

exactly. it's also very obvious that all the evens in the end of season 2 are linked.
sometimes i feel that even TEOTW is linked to evil tess.

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To some degree I feel for her being stuck with a man like Nasedo for 10 years...because it had got to be an impact on her. BUT Nasedo died. She could have stopped her plan but she went through with it. To the bitter end. She didn't care about the lives she was ruining or impacting.

She used Max. She used Kyle as an accessory to murder.

She had no remorse. It's on her for what she ultimately did.

exactly. we can't even blame Nacedo because even if he was the one who did the deal Tess was still the one who actually worked for it. not Nacedo.
Nacedo died.
if he forced her then when he died she was free no?

another thing that i noticed only in the end is a weird coincidence happened in the episodes with the dupes.
Tess had a deal with Kivar. Nicholas was Kivar's ally.
notice a weird coincidence. in the episode where she "killed" the skins "casually" Nicholas survived and he was pretty fine later even if in the other episode he vanished just like the others.
then in Max in the city when Rath and Lonnie took her Nicholas didn't kill her.
i always found very weird her explanation (or not explanation) when Max found her. how is possible that Nicholas could leave her that way? so easy?
and Rath and Lonnie?
i always thought that she killed everyone but then in the end i realized that Nicholas obviously couldn't kill her. in the same way she couldn't kill him in the other episode. this is a common thing for allies.

that episode is very telling about many things.
the way she didn't have a seal and no one cared about her opinion or even noticed her or simply gave her a chair at the table. it seemed that the "queen" wasn't so fundamental for antar like she always seemed to make Max believe she was. and we also know that Michael will be the one who will get the royal seal if something happens to Max.
also she couldn't save Max nor she could give him a real useful advice.
while Liz, from roswell, not only saved his life and was able to connect with him she also concretely helped with his decision because he couldn't stop but think about her advice. and in that episode he was angry with her.
above all it seemed that the dupes were the contrary of the roswell royal four.
like the roswell aliens were good while the dupes were bad. BUT casually Tess dupe wasn't bad.
and what about what she told Liz? Zan was awaiting for someonelse. (some M&L haters call it "the Dreamer Angel always there" oh they hate it lol)
there wasn't a Liz between the dupes and they were together, but still they didn't love each other. he wasn't in love with her and Ava knew it.
so the problem wasn't only Liz itself. something didn't work in the "destined" couples however because even if Zan didn't love a "Liz" he still was awaiting for another woman and he didn't love his mate. Rath and Vilandra on the other end were really squalid. their relationship was based on sex and betrayals.

can all these things be casual?
knowing the end i don't think that they were so casual.

Quote:

It's on Max for what he did. But he was not in a good place emotionally. He was feeling so many burdens plus around that time he was beginning to deal with the past on Antar; getting help from Tess to remember more...

and casually without her "help" the memories stopped
just like the erotic 'visions' stopped after they busted her about the mindwarps in season 1. easy
above all the memories felt always very weird to me. Max couldn't remember antar and Zan&Ava like in the human world and doing human things. it's stupid, naive and not coherent with what the canon said about antar. it's impossible that Zan&Ava looked like humans. we know without a single doubt that they were aliens and they looked completely different.

honestly IMO even Tess didn't really remember antar.
and after all they're not really those people. they're hybrid clones. not reincarnations (no one said that Zan&Ava souls were transfered into these new bodies. also if that was the truth then they wouldn't need to remember, in the first place)

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We got it all. So I can't be upset LOL. We could have gotten no resolution. But we got a damn romantic proposal and then a small glimpse of their small private ceremony in a little white church of places.

So we are very fortunate...

the diamond

i also love that little private church

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They only thing we didn't get was the "cementing" scene, but their interaction in "Sexual Healing" was a pretty good substitute LOL.

sh, busted, 4aaab, graduation....

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It was so heart-breaking. Max was losing it. Michael was trying to be the sensible one but Max was willing to do anything if he though it would help Liz get better because it was just one more thing for him to worry about. The fact he changed Liz by saving her. But giving her back life. She was forever altered. That is alot for him to process and add to all the resentment about past hurts were coming up...

he wanted to contact even the same people who almost killed him and tortured him like an animal.
i don't even think that they could have helped.
but he was desperate.

Quote:

So yea, Max is a tad more fragile than Liz is. Which as I said, makes for a better counterbalance and why they work. Because when one falls; the other is there. And particularly when Max falls; Liz can be there to help.

And he was desperately trying to be that help for Liz as she was falling.

And then when he started shutting down around him. The window scene; so damn painful.

She needed the time away. But it wasn't easy for either of them.

they were always there for each other, into a way or another.
even when Alex died at the beginning Max tried to comfort her. called her at home many times and he was the one she went to in the night when she needed a friend.. and he was there and made her feel better.

Liz was always strong but notice how the few times she was the fragile one then Max could be her rock.
my fav example is leaving normal. but changes is another good example too.
also both of them cried only into each other arms.

they were definitely balanced together.

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They had set up the destiny crap. So as much as it hurt to see what king of person Max was becoming before he came back to reality. It almost seemed right that they used Max. Although I wish he hadn't walked into the trap and given Tess all the motivation. That he had stopped before going too far.

above all it made him look.. stupid. and that's exactly what Max's haters were awaiting for.
even when he asked Tess for joke if she had killed Alex. the writers were mean with him

me on the other hand i don't think that he was stupid. maybe with different circumstances he wouldn't have fallen in the trap like that. but it's also true that she always always on him like glue and he never gave her a chance for a whole year. it's not that Liz broke his heart only the day before too late too bad. he was a single since a year. so it's not that he was that stupid or an unsure boy who couldn't make up his mind. Max always knew what he wanted. he was a damn sure guy.

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Very true. It's easier to watch the season's; particularly the second season knowing that Max and Liz do eventually conquere all and are able to be with each other and be happy. That they get their little happy ever ending.

you can better understand and appreciate the angst

because in the end they transformed the bad times into something greater that made them stronger and real.

Quote:

Haven't heard of "Fortunate son". But I loved Chameleon because it manages to use the diaries and makes us relive the good and the bad. And see the parents reaction. I particularly like Amy's view on Maria and Michael. Which seemed very true to her personality. And the Evans and Parkers now in-laws are able to see what happened to their kids and what they went through.

Which is why I wish we could have seen on the show; how the parents would have reacted to the diary.

me too. sob

another title to had in the opening
- Max is not a king, he's a throne where she can comfortably sit down

made by Gloria for the "what a great mind" scene from graduation

xmag · 02-28-2009, 06:24 AM

Lovely title for the thread

.

Quote:

Quote:
Regarding Liz gaining more sympathy from the audience in Season 2, I can see that. However, with me it was different. It's probably because I usually watch the entire season in a day so I get the entire picture better. It's not spaced over several months like it probably was on tv so I clearly saw where both Liz and Max were at fault. Also, I think that females tend to sympathize more with the girl because she's more relatable to them.

true.
even if the same thing didn't happen in the third season for Maria... so i don't know.
maybe the core reason is that when you're used to characters that seem "perfect" (example season 1 Max) it's hard to understand them when they're not perfect.

I think it's because Maria made a mistake in season 3, just like Max did in season 2, and just like him, she became the "villain". For candies, it wasn't like that because Michael had made mistakes in season 1 and 2 and we accepted that, just like we accepted the mistake Maria made in season 3. I'm talking for candies, here, that's all.

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when Max slept with Tess he wasn't himself (again, even the writers said it), they weren't a couple, they weren't even real friends. she totally took advantage of the situation

Maybe Alex's death wasn't on purpose but it sure helped Tess achieve her goal. I see it as a "divide and conquer" thing. The group was completly shattered and Tess used that to get closer to Max because she wanted something from him. Max was a pawn for her, unfortunately. The sperm donor.

*Coccy* · 02-28-2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmag (View Post)

I think it's because Maria made a mistake in season 3, just like Max did in season 2, and just like him, she became the "villain". For candies, it wasn't like that because Michael had made mistakes in season 1 and 2 and we accepted that, just like we accepted the mistake Maria made in season 3. I'm talking for candies, here, that's all.

exactly. but notice that when it's about the two couples most of the people, not necessarily real dreamers or candies, always side with Michael and Liz more (and polars, i believe, were created for this reason).
so it's not always true that female fans side with the female character.

personally i never sided with more Max or Liz. yes i defend him a lot because he's the one more criticized (at least in the boards i read) so most of the time i have to for the sake of a specific discussion but i accept their flaws and their mistakes especially since they took the responsibility of them. i see them as a whole and i understand both their separated povs and i don't want to blame one of them only because i know that in the end it wasn't even really their fault, in the first place.

for example if i say that it wasn't only Max's fault and Liz was to blame too because she didn't tell him the truth about FMax i'm not saying that Max's mistake was Liz's fault itself but that they both influenced each other actions to a degree, that they both acted that way for a reason and they had to face the consequences of their actions. and they did.
basically my opinion about them is the same opinion they had about each other in the third season because unlike what some people believe the truth is that Liz forgave Max (because she knew that it wasn't only his fault and she *understood* him even if she was still hurt) and Max forgave Liz and he never kept records of what she had created in the second season.

and i know many dreamers that are like that too. this thread is an example.
i like the way both the characters are analyzed

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Maybe Alex's death wasn't on purpose but it sure helped Tess achieve her goal. I see it as a "divide and conquer" thing. The group was completly shattered and Tess used that to get closer to Max because she wanted something from him. Max was a pawn for her, unfortunately. The sperm donor

.

it's undeniable. it helped her and she used it. and it's not that she felt guilty for it. she didn't care.
she even pretended that Alex's fake Sweden family sent flowers for his funeral. she knew what she was doing

(another thing that didn't make sense with the theory that Alex was killed by the skins or Kivar. again, these kind of enemies don't need to hide what they did. they didn't need such a show in order to cover their self. it's stupid - itself it already didn't make sense that they would make Max&Co a favor by translating the book and then leave it like that for them to find come on - This is something that only a fake friend needs to do. someone that can't be busted)

Celebrianna · 02-28-2009, 09:49 AM

Jasper, thanks for the fan fiction links. I already started Chameleon and like it a lot so far.

Love the screencaps Coccy and even more so because I haven't watched Roswell these past two nights. I'm proud of myself. lol I'm trying to break the need to watch it.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

ditto. i'm open for both. even if my real choice would be Alex and Isabel

at least in the books they're friends in the end

anyway i can't be totally against Jesse&Isabel because they loved each other.
and when love is involved i don't want to destroy couples at any cost.
even if their relationship was weak i can't cancel canon.
i don't want to confuse what i want to happen with what the characters really felt.
even if Jesse&Isabel were nothing like Max&Liz or even Michael&Maria.

Yes, I'm like that too. I don't support non-canon pairings. Once love is evident and confirmed between two characters, and i like them together, I support it. If I don't like them, I move on from that canon source.

Shipping fanon takes too much effort on my part. If I can't read it (novels) or watch it from the canon source, I lose interest *very* quickly. That's why fan fiction only work for me up to a certain point. I get distracted easily.

Anyway, I did love Jesse/Isabel's parting in Graduation. They made tears fall from my eyes. I even began to wonder if they'll ever re-unite. The thing is, if their separation is over years, I can actually see Jesse moving on with his life. Maybe its because I see professional men like him wanting that companionship that usually comes along with the cushy job. You know...the wife who throws little evening dinners to entertain clients and help him network more. lol

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

yes. Max would never do something like that with Liz.
but even those scenes were different because Max&Liz were together, they loved each other and they knew it. and most important no one of them was into such a bad state. still he asked. he CARED. he always did.

All the more important because even though they were together and the feelings were mutual, he still cared enough to ask Liz if she was sure she wanted to cross that line when we all know that they wanted to in their present state. lol That was real consideration.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

when Max slept with Tess he wasn't himself (again, even the writers said it), they weren't a couple, they weren't even real friends. she totally took advantage of the situation. she knew that he was into a bad state, she knew the whole truth about Alex's death and that Liz was right. she knew that she was the one who created it all and he was into that state for her fault too.

Agreed. I do think she took advantage of the situation to get what she wanted.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

people always take for granted that only the man is the one who uses women but it's not always true.
we women can use people as well. it's just more subtle.

People who think that obviously don't have male friends. I have and I know they are just as wary of being used by women.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

my fav couples are more the ones from movies and novels. guess why

i'm not so crazy about shippers. i love "love" in general and when i see two people in love with each other i support the shippers. but not hard core like for M&L

LOL You wanna know something, I thought I was the only who say that I love "love." Anyway, I'm a huge fan of "love" in novels, in movies, in tv shows, in cartoons, in anime, etc. I have ships from every medium.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

my other fav couples from tv-shows are Ally&Larry (Ally&Billy too) from Ally McBeal, Derek&Meredith, Jin&Sun, Desmond&Penny....

Oh, I used to love Derek & Meredith but I stopped watching Grey's Anatomy like two years ago because it was too soap opera like for me. I also love Desmond & Penny but I stopped watching Lost in Season 3.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

even if the same thing didn't happen in the third season for Maria... so i don't know.

I never blamed Maria for her actions in Season 3. While I didn't like what she did to Michael, I also thought it was part of her need to decide what she really wanted in life.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

maybe the core reason is that when you're used to characters that seem "perfect" (example season 1 Max) it's hard to understand them when they're not perfect.

I still don't get why Max is criticized more than Liz in Season 2 and I still firmly believe its because a bunch of females took it personally that he slept with another female. When it comes to that type of thing, females tend to side with the female pov.

I loved Max for most of Season 2 more than I did in the opening episodes of Season 3. I never liked to see him with a selfish streak.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

and what about what she told Liz? Zan was awaiting for someonelse. (some M&L haters call it "the Dreamer Angel always there" oh they hate it lol)
there wasn't a Liz between the dupes and they were together, but still they didn't love each other. he wasn't in love with her and Ava knew it.
so the problem wasn't only Liz itself. something didn't work in the "destined" couples however because even if Zan didn't love a "Liz" he still was awaiting for another woman and he didn't love his mate.

Yes, after hearing what Ava said, I figured that Zan/Max soulmate lied elsewhere. It wasn't Tess or Ava.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

the diamond

i also love that little private church

You know, Max could go into the diamond business. lol He can turn a bunch of coal into diamonds and they can provide for themselves financially while they're on the run.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

above all it made him look.. stupid. and that's exactly what Max's haters were awaiting for.
even when he asked Tess for joke if she had killed Alex. the writers were mean with him

Actually, they would be silly to think that because even Liz, who was standing right there, didn't believe it was Tess. It never entered their minds. Now, if on the other hand Liz had accused Tess and Max said that, then he would have really looked like a fool in the end.

Jasper1975 · 02-28-2009, 10:27 AM

LOVE the new thread. Beautiful thread name. So true.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

me too.
also.. i LOVE chant down babylon.
their relationship went beyond even death.
their love is so profound that they can win even against death and that was the ultimate proof that M&L are the real thing. they aren't just a legend created by someone who had her own agenda.

it's sad that Max had to die and Liz felt it but the message of that episode is wonderful.
they're real soulmates. like no other couple i ever saw because with them it's really proved with something CONCRETE
i love that she really was his everything. he survived only for her. she's everything he saw before dying. he loved and protected her even after his death and she saved him! Max's love for her and her love for him saved him
i love the scene where she hugged Clayton/Max and he got all those flashes from M&L connection. he saw the star and the sweet memories of the first time they saw each other when they were just kids and he already knew that she was the one for him. that connection made Max's soul stronger and later he could take over and talk with her.

Chant Down Babylon was so special because it was evidence that Max and Liz had this beyond normal connection. The fact Max would sacrifice himself for her; so she could live. After all he had done in the episode; it was like penance for him to be able to give her something. We saw those flashes. Interesting that Liz's were about all her family friends but for Max; it was all Liz.

Probably was only right because he was in a new body and his memories of Liz were the only thing that popped through right away. It was only after he came back and was kissed that he probably remembered everything and was totally Max in a new body.

But it spoke to Max and Liz's bond that she could bring back. And that even death couldn't sperate them in this instance. They were each other's destiny's.

Forget alien destiny. Liz was Max's human destiny. And Max was Liz's.

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also thank to the third season we got an amazing ending with them married and happy.
i wanted nothing more.
if we consider the books (that can be considered canon because they're official) we even know that they will start a family.

It was such a special ending. And the knowledge they would be together in the future. We are so lucky.

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ditto. i'm open for both. even if my real choice would be Alex and Isabel

at least in the books they're friends in the end

anyway i can't be totally against Jesse&Isabel because they loved each other.
and when love is involved i don't want to destroy couples at any cost.
even if their relationship was weak i can't cancel canon.
i don't want to confuse what i want to happen with what the characters really felt.
even if Jesse&Isabel were nothing like Max&Liz or even Michael&Maria.

Isabel and Jesse have grown on me and particularly Jesse over the years since the show ended. But still I am not sure they would have made it given how they started and she was lying until half way through their first months of marriage. And then she didn't even come clean; it was her nearly dying that opened Jesse's eyes.

But I do think they loved each other. I think Isabel loved how good of a guy Jesse was and was attracted to it after her run of bad luck. But I am not sure that was enough.

About Alex. I only saw good friends between them. Not a chemisty. But that is me.

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people always take for granted that only the man is the one who uses women but it's not always true.
we women can use people as well. it's just more subtle.
i also hate that the day after she tried to make him feel guilty because he didn't look happy. seriously that was too much and mean.

Yup. Tess was the ultimate user. She used everyone for her own purposes and had no qualms about it. Now she was raised that way. No telling if she would have been like that if someone else had found her and raised her. But she was willing to use Alex to decode the book. And when he became too fried... She used Kyle. And she used Max.

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exactly. we can't even blame Nacedo because even if he was the one who did the deal Tess was still the one who actually worked for it. not Nacedo.
Nacedo died.
if he forced her then when he died she was free no?

another thing that i noticed only in the end is a weird coincidence happened in the episodes with the dupes.
Tess had a deal with Kivar. Nicholas was Kivar's ally.
notice a weird coincidence. in the episode where she "killed" the skins "casually" Nicholas survived and he was pretty fine later even if in the other episode he vanished just like the others.
then in Max in the city when Rath and Lonnie took her Nicholas didn't kill her.
i always found very weird her explanation (or not explanation) when Max found her. how is possible that Nicholas could leave her that way? so easy?
and Rath and Lonnie?
i always thought that she killed everyone but then in the end i realized that Nicholas obviously couldn't kill her. in the same way she couldn't kill him in the other episode. this is a common thing for allies.

I have noted before that it's very interested after the attempt on Max's life in New York that Liz spoiled. Tess is taken. Max goes after her. But finds her sitting and is able to save her. The Dupes are NO WHERE around. Why is that. Did Tess make some deal with that. Were they always in it together.

And notice it was Tess who got Isabel into the confrontation with Congresswoman Whittaker. Now this time Tess did look beat up so it's possible Whittaker took the wrong one and though she was taking Isabel. But what if it was all a set up to get Isabel to come and learned her Antar history?

Hmmm...

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they were always there for each other, into a way or another.
even when Alex died at the beginning Max tried to comfort her. called her at home many times and he was the one she went to in the night when she needed a friend.. and he was there and made her feel better.

Liz was always strong but notice how the few times she was the fragile one then Max could be her rock.
my fav example is leaving normal. but changes is another good example too.
also both of them cried only into each other arms.

they were definitely balanced together.

That is what I loved about them so much. They could be each other's rock when it called for it. But were also strong when they needed to be. Which made Max and Liz a perfect match because even when things go bad; they try to fix it. Liz was a born leader. The boss. A person who loved making plans.

It's when her plans go by the waste side that she starts to crack. And her ultimate plan for the future was being dismantled piece by piece and she couldn't handle it. She hates the unexpected.

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above all it made him look.. stupid. and that's exactly what Max's haters were awaiting for.
even when he asked Tess for joke if she had killed Alex. the writers were mean with him

me on the other hand i don't think that he was stupid. maybe with different circumstances he wouldn't have fallen in the trap like that. but it's also true that she always always on him like glue and he never gave her a chance for a whole year. it's not that Liz broke his heart only the day before too late too bad. he was a single since a year. so it's not that he was that stupid or an unsure boy who couldn't make up his mind. Max always knew what he wanted. he was a damn sure guy.

I don't think he was stupid. I think he was grief stricken. While he and Alex weren't close friends. It was still a member of their small group who died and one who knew the secret. He felt so many burdens due to who he was. Adding Tess's influence; Max started to act up. Going against everyone.

Liz and even Isabel. And unfortunately he fell into the trap set by Tess.

Posts by Celebrianna

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Jasper, thanks for the fan fiction links. I already started Chameleon and like it a lot so far.

Your welcome. I love reading fanfiction at times. Especially Chameleon; so I hope you enjoy it.

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Anyway, I did love Jesse/Isabel's parting in Graduation. They made tears fall from my eyes. I even began to wonder if they'll ever re-unite. The thing is, if their separation is over years, I can actually see Jesse moving on with his life. Maybe its because I see professional men like him wanting that companionship that usually comes along with the cushy job. You know...the wife who throws little evening dinners to entertain clients and help him network more. lol

Yup and I think even Isabel knew it. She took the ring but I doubt they could have made it. And she probably was getting that sense with all their difficulties once Jesse was in on the secret.

Moving to Boston would give him a new life. And Isabel would be out on the road.

I can see a divorce not to far down in the future because as much as Jesse might NOT have strayed...being away would take a toll on a marriage. And as you said, dinner parties and social occasions.

Just like being in close proximity and both being "single", Isabel and Kyle probably would get too close for comfort.

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I never blamed Maria for her actions in Season 3. While I didn't like what she did to Michael, I also thought it was part of her need to decide what she really wanted in life.

I don't blame Maria. It was totally fine for her to question. She wasn't in the group by being saved like Liz was. She was in it due to her friendship with the gang; particularly Liz and and her relationship with Michael. She was having a midlife crisis at age 18. She needed time to figure out what she wanted. She saw part of her dream come true but also saw it was not all that cracked up to be and came home from New York. And then later came to the crossroads of having to decide what she wanted for her future.

But my only issue with Maria was the mixed signals she was giving Michael. Poor Michael during time. Maria wanted the breakup; he was totally committed to her finally. And she was playing with his emotions. The hookup prior to New York definately gave mixed signals.

Just like Liz had her own crisis; Maria was having her own and both needed time to figure out if the alien chaos was what they wanted for their futures.

And ultimately they realized they needed both Max and Michael in their lives probably for different reasons. But they needed them.

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You know, Max could go into the diamond business. lol He can turn a bunch of coal into diamonds and they can provide for themselves financially while they're on the run.

So true. And I am not sure if they could detect he just produced them with a wave of the hand or in a fist.

But it definately made for a romantic proposal. She was so shocked. She had no idea it was coming. Her stunned look as he got down on bended knee was so beautiful in it's own right.

KenL · 02-28-2009, 10:47 AM

*Coccy* · 02-28-2009, 12:06 PM

love the art and that scene

the anatomy of a kiss

that was what i call "making love with a kiss"
the slow motion shoot with their intertwined lips is one the sexiest things ever.

the way he said "i need more convincing"

they like one-on-one

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celebrianna (View Post)

Yes, I'm like that too. I don't support non-canon pairings. Once love is evident and confirmed between two characters, and i like them together, I support it. If I don't like them, I move on from that canon source.

Shipping fanon takes too much effort on my part. If I can't read it (novels) or watch it from the canon source, I lose interest *very* quickly. That's why fan fiction only work for me up to a certain point. I get distracted easily.

ditto. i'm like that too.

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Anyway, I did love Jesse/Isabel's parting in Graduation. They made tears fall from my eyes. I even began to wonder if they'll ever re-unite. The thing is, if their separation is over years, I can actually see Jesse moving on with his life. Maybe its because I see professional men like him wanting that companionship that usually comes along with the cushy job. You know...the wife who throws little evening dinners to entertain clients and help him network more. lol

i felt sorry for him

and for Isabel because she did lose another love.
actually that scene is the best one for them. it's the only one where i really felt them a bit.

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All the more important because even though they were together and the feelings were mutual, he still cared enough to ask Liz if she was sure she wanted to cross that line when we all know that they wanted to in their present state. lol That was real consideration.

he never forced her even in the third season.
even when she made him crazy

from the way he looked into some scenes i bet that he took many cold showers

poor guy.
he really loved *her*
he's the most considerate guy ever. at least toward the ones he does really love.

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People who think that obviously don't have male friends. I have and I know they are just as wary of being used by women.

after all it was Eve the one who took the apple

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Oh, I used to love Derek & Meredith but I stopped watching Grey's Anatomy like two years ago because it was too soap opera like for me. I also love Desmond & Penny but I stopped watching Lost in Season 3.

i kinda agree. these shows got boring.

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I never blamed Maria for her actions in Season 3. While I didn't like what she did to Michael, I also thought it was part of her need to decide what she really wanted in life.

i believe that everyone had his/her own moment of crisis and it was their right. it was human.

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I still don't get why Max is criticized more than Liz in Season 2 and I still firmly believe its because a bunch of females took it personally that he slept with another female. When it comes to that type of thing, females tend to side with the female pov.

I loved Max for most of Season 2 more than I did in the opening episodes of Season 3. I never liked to see him with a selfish streak.

it was never a real problem for me that he slept with another woman because i always saw when it happened and why.
he never cheated on Liz. they weren't together since a year. if he really wanted to sleep with Tess her could have tried to start something with her way before especially since she was always on him like glue and.. he's a guy.
But Max never did. he had to be in the worst time of his life in order to give her a half chance.
even the writers said that they had to make him OOC in order to put him with Tess.

what i mean is that Max wasn't like the other male characters of the other tv.shows. circumstances can't be just a detail and i can't put him in the same place of all the many cheaters of tv because his example is completely different.

also he always took the responsibility of his actions. he didn't run from problems he faced them and admitted his faults even to someone who tried to kill him (Kal), he apologized even when he could have avoided it.
and he was always honest about his feelings.

what i hate about the storyline is just the way M&L are put against each other.
how they both felt responsible for things that weren't their fault (Alex's death. because for me they both felt responsible and they were so unreasonable for this reason too)
i also hate that an innocent baby got used like that and basically had to pay for a mistake that his parents did. maybe being totally human was really a gift for the baby but still.... it wasn't fair.

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Yes, after hearing what Ava said, I figured that Zan/Max soulmate lied elsewhere. It wasn't Tess or Ava.

destiny was crap. the stupidest storyline ever made. lol
people are not robots just because a book said that they have to be together (for no concrete reason) it doesn't mean that they can fall in love with each other.
it's unnatural, stupid and squalid.
nature always prevails.
people can't create what it isn't there from the start.

if Zan really loved Ava (something that the canon never concretely proved, anyway) and Max was really Zan (something that the canon never concretely proved since they always talked about clones and never about transfered souls) then he would have loved Tess from the start he wouldn't have avoided her like plague. he wouldn't have left her there in the pods and forgot about her for 10 years without recognizing her when he saw her again (he thought that she was Nacedo. cute. she had to mindwarp him over and over in order to make him understand. )
above all if Max was really Zan he would have remembered his life from the start with no need to "remember" in the first place.
so either:
- that love didn't exist. very possible. maybe it was an arranged wedding otherwise Kivar had to reason to believe that Tess would have worked for him against her supposed love.
- it was weak. she wasn't the love of his life. very possible and normal. after all we don't have even a real evidence that he loved her, in the first place.
Zan found his soulmate into another time and space.
and this is most likely what Ronald Moore meant when he said that Max and Liz were soulmates across time and space.

Max still loved and protected Liz even after his body was a puddle of dust. his soul survived only for her memory and she was the only image he saw in the flashes before he died. Max loved her from the very first time he layed his eyes on her when he was just a kid and he loved her for 10 years. and she was the one who felt it when he died and the one who could save him with a kiss.
that's real and concrete.

his soul was transfered, he died. but his love for her didn't.

the difference with destiny's crap is immense.

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You know, Max could go into the diamond business. lol He can turn a bunch of coal into diamonds and they can provide for themselves financially while they're on the run.

true

a husband that can make diamonds can be useful

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Actually, they would be silly to think that because even Liz, who was standing right there, didn't believe it was Tess. It never entered their minds. Now, if on the other hand Liz had accused Tess and Max said that, then he would have really looked like a fool in the end.

i know but they played with it by giving you the solution
he slept with the enemy... he felt even more responsible after __-__

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper1975 (View Post)

Chant Down Babylon was so special because it was evidence that Max and Liz had this beyond normal connection. The fact Max would sacrifice himself for her; so she could live. After all he had done in the episode; it was like penance for him to be able to give her something. We saw those flashes. Interesting that Liz's were about all her family friends but for Max; it was all Liz.

it was the ultimate proof. if what they already had wasn't enough yet.
more than this there's nothing better, i thing

they say that people see their life before they die. they see all the people they love.
and he saw only her.

you know something similar happened in the original story too.
in the end of Melinda's books Liz saved Max's life and she was what kept him alive.
the scene in the books is more sci.fi
his molecules spread in the universe found hers, merged with hers and they embraced becoming a shining star.

"You're what would bring me back.Even if my molecules were spread out from here to whatever galaxy my home planet is in, that wouldn't stop me. All my molecules would be like little homing pigeons. They'd all zoom to you, and then I'd re-form."(Max Evans - The Stowaway, Melinda Metz)

and he really did.

i understand that in the show maybe it wasn't possible to make

but it's beautiful that many things about the show were still faithful to what happen in the books. they changed the way, the interpretation. but not the core messages.
also notice how in the original story too everything he said was always real. not just romantic.

also i can see in 'chant down babylon' a link to what Max said in "destiny"
not only when he told her "you mean everything to me" but also the scene in the wan when he told her that she was what kept him alive
it's a good parallel

i love him

it's never just words with him.

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Probably was only right because he was in a new body and his memories of Liz were the only thing that popped through right away. It was only after he came back and was kissed that he probably remembered everything and was totally Max in a new body.

But it spoke to Max and Liz's bond that she could bring back. And that even death couldn't sperate them in this instance. They were each other's destiny's.

Forget alien destiny. Liz was Max's human destiny. And Max was Liz's.

it made sense because her memory was the only thing that kept him alive in the whole episode

as for destiny.. Buddhists should sue the writers.
the word was used so improperly. that was not destiny. Tess and Nacedo should have studied what the word really means.

i don't believe in destiny but we can say that the real destiny if it really exists were Max and Liz. absolutely.
even when they tried to change the future they still loved and married in the end.
above all it's amazing that with all the planets in the universe they sent Max in our planet, in roswell new mexico, in the right time where 40 years later he could find her and they were the same age. when the antarians created him Liz wasn't born yet.
if that wasn't real fate and destiny i don't know what can be.

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I have noted before that it's very interested after the attempt on Max's life in New York that Liz spoiled. Tess is taken. Max goes after her. But finds her sitting and is able to save her. The Dupes are NO WHERE around. Why is that. Did Tess make some deal with that. Were they always in it together.

And notice it was Tess who got Isabel into the confrontation with Congresswoman Whittaker. Now this time Tess did look beat up so it's possible Whittaker took the wrong one and though she was taking Isabel. But what if it was all a set up to get Isabel to come and learned her Antar history?

Hmmm...

i always thought that she killed Rath and Lonnie
but then if we follow the season four books they were alive.
anyway it makes way more sense now than the first time i saw the scene
it was too weird that they left her there.
then it made sense. Nicholas couldn't kill her. so the dupes.

it's even possible that Tess was the one who did the deal.
but it doesn't fit with what the writers said. they always confirmed what she said in departure about the deal and Nacedo. even if they always said that Tess was the enemy and the one working against them for the deal. but they never really talked about Nacedo too

anyway about Congresswoman Whittaker i always found weird that she confused Isabel and Tess. come on it didn't make sense.
i understand that Vilandra was a green alien with black eyes while Isabel is human but it's impossible that Congresswoman Whittaker made such a stupid mistake. why?
even when Liz told her about Tess what the Congresswoman Whittaker thought? that the other woman between her and Max was his sister?

also.. the skins loved Vilandra no? so if she thought that Tess was Vilandra i don't understand why she should have hurt her like that almost killing her
Kivar, their ally, "loved" Vlandra. they couldn't touch her!

i find your theory way more believable than crazy&stupid Whittaker who not only didn't understand who was Vilandra but also almost killed her even if she adored her.

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That is what I loved about them so much. They could be each other's rock when it called for it. But were also strong when they needed to be. Which made Max and Liz a perfect match because even when things go bad; they try to fix it. Liz was a born leader. The boss. A person who loved making plans.

it's true

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It's when her plans go by the waste side that she starts to crack. And her ultimate plan for the future was being dismantled piece by piece and she couldn't handle it. She hates the unexpected.

the old Liz could have never loved Max. without realizing it Max destroyed everything she believed she was. Because Liz liked control. she liked science because it could give her answers. and then she fell in love with an.. alien!
the concrete proof that she was wrong and she couldn't control things. that even science couldn't give her all the answers. that she couldn't be perfect and she had to face uncertainty.
but she didn't run from him even if she had everything to lose, she wasn't forced to be with him..... she was human and normal and she wanted to be invisible. Liz totally changed her way to see life, she started to live the moment and to follow her heart. she made the decision to protect him no matter what. and this happened because she fell in love with him. and love doesn't give you a choice.

so into a way she hated the unexpected but at the same time she loved it. because it was the unexpected that gave her Max. that made her find the love of her life. her soulmate. the one that made her really herself, finally herself.

one of the most important things into this show is that the main couples aren't just couples. into a way these characters are the characters we love because of the ones they loved. it's one of the reasons of why i don't read uc ff because if you put Liz with someone else she can't be the same Liz i love because the Liz i love was that way because she was in love with Max and for him she changed-->was herself. the same goes for Max.
he was that amazing male character i loved because he did everything for her. it's with her that i could see his romantic side for example, or that he was able to sacrifice himself, let himself die for the one he loved.
it was for her that he wasn't behind the tree anymore and he started to do crazy things like singing a serenade for her

it was for her that he started to be really himself and it was for him that she started to be really herself.
it isn't something that happened with everyone.

into a way when Max told Liz that she made him human i believe that he meant that. she made him like the man he would have been if he didn't need to hide for his whole life. she made him complete, his real self. for her he wasn't hiding behind the tree anymore. for him she understood that to follow her heart was better than to always control everything about her life.

Jasper1975 · 02-28-2009, 01:19 PM

Beautiful art Ken... You picked some fantastic moments.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

i felt sorry for him

and for Isabel because she did lose another love.
actually that scene is the best one for them. it's the only one where i really felt them a bit.

It was sad. Max and Michael were with their true loves and soulmates on their flee from Roswell but Isabel was alone; without the one she loved. Kyle to. Neither seemed to find that one great love.

I do think Isabel loved Jesse; just not that earth shattering connection that both Max and Michael had Liz and Maria.

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i believe that everyone had his/her own moment of crisis and it was their right. it was human.

And given that graduation was approaching. It seemed right that both Liz and Maria would question their futures. With Maria; she dreamt of a future in Music. But she loved Michael. And had gotten sucked into the alien chaos. While Liz was committed and totally gone for Max and had gone through some major stuff because of him. Almost went to jail. Could have died.

It right for them both to figure out how committed they were. While Maria was still questioning in "Graduation". Liz learned the hard way that losing Max and being away from Max was not all that was cracked up to. At least Maria got a taste of music. She might find it again someday in the future.

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it was never a real problem for me that he slept with another woman because i always saw when it happened and why.
he never cheated on Liz. they weren't together since a year. if he really wanted to sleep with Tess her could have tried to start something with her way before especially since she was always on him like glue and.. he's a guy.
But Max never did. he had to be in the worst time of his life in order to give her a half chance.
even the writers said that they had to make him OOC in order to put him with Tess.

The concept of him sleeping with Tess was not what bothered me because technically it wasn't cheating. They hadn't been together for nearly a year and Liz was pushing him away. It was just that it happened. I wish he could have been one of those times where they are tempted but stop themselves.

I just wish they hadn't shown Max to be a typical guy. Who would sleep with someone during a tough time. Wish he would have waited even though Liz was pushing him away.

But he didn't cheat on her... He was a typical teenage boy and that frustrated me and plus I hated Tess. So the idea she got her way was nausating to me.

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destiny was crap. the stupidest storyline ever made. lol
people are not robots just because a book said that they have to be together (for no concrete reason) it doesn't mean that they can fall in love with each other.
it's unnatural, stupid and squalid.
nature always prevails.
people can't create what it isn't there from the start.

Yup.

Destiny is choice. Free will. Not forced or not the past.

Zan may have cared for Ava on Antar. But that was on Antar. Not Earth. It proved when Max and Liz fell for each other. They were each other destinies.

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Max still loved and protected Liz even after his body was a puddle of dust. his soul survived only for her memory and she was the only image he saw in the flashes before he died. Max loved her from the very first time he layed his eyes on her when he was just a kid and he loved her for 10 years. and she was the one who felt it when he died and the one who could save him with a kiss.
that's real and concrete.

his soul was transfered, he died. but his love for her didn't.

the difference with destiny's crap is immense.

So true. The fact Max risked death TWICE to save Liz. He was dust and came back all because of his love for Liz. That is true love. Soulmates.

Destiny.

He waited since third grade. He loved her at first sight. That is true love.

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anyway about Congresswoman Whittaker i always found weird that she confused Isabel and Tess. come on it didn't make sense.
i understand that Vilandra was a green alien with black eyes while Isabel is human but it's impossible that Congresswoman Whittaker made such a stupid mistake. why?
even when Liz told her about Tess what the Congresswoman Whittaker thought? that the other woman between her and Max was his sister?

also.. the skins loved Vilandra no? so if she thought that Tess was Vilandra i don't understand why she should have hurt her like that almost killing her
Kivar, their ally, "loved" Vlandra. they couldn't touch her!

i find your theory way more believable than crazy&stupid Whittaker who not only didn't understand who was Vilandra but also almost killed her even if she adored her.

Very weird. Unless Isabel was short in stature on Antar. I don't see how she could get Isabel and Tess confused.

*Coccy* · 02-28-2009, 02:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Jasper1975 (View Post)

It was sad. Max and Michael were with their true loves and soulmates on their flee from Roswell but Isabel was alone; without the one she loved. Kyle to. Neither seemed to find that one great love.

I do think Isabel loved Jesse; just not that earth shattering connection that both Max and Michael had Liz and Maria.

it was a 'normal' love without any special connection. like all the couples in real life.
it could last. it could end.

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The concept of him sleeping with Tess was not what bothered me because technically it wasn't cheating. They hadn't been together for nearly a year and Liz was pushing him away. It was just that it happened. I wish he could have been one of those times where they are tempted but stop themselves.

but then the writers couldn't end with departure like that
because everything was linked in order to get departure.

alex's death, the book translation, M&T sleeping together and her getting pregnant, the baby couldn't survive and casually Liz found their only way in order to go home.
it was all a plan made by Tess.

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I just wish they hadn't shown Max to be a typical guy. Who would sleep with someone during a tough time. Wish he would have waited even though Liz was pushing him away.

i know but he awaited for a whole year. it's a miracle that his love for her never died
he will never be a typical guy but he's still human

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But he didn't cheat on her... He was a typical teenage boy and that frustrated me and plus I hated Tess. So the idea she got her way was nausating to me.

they suck. they're squalid, sad and too forced from the beginning.
the episode isn't called "it's too late and it's too bad" for nothing. i guess.

if Max wasn't into a such bad state he would have never fallen into her trap.
and after all she had to work way too much in order to get into his pants

also it didn't seem to me that "hot alien sex" was so fun from the way he looked the day after and the way he talked about it.

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Destiny is choice. Free will. Not forced or not the past.

destiny is a path created by.. God or another superior power above us and everything. it's not created by normal people no matter if they're antarians or humans or any other species. no one can create a destiny for another being.
also the real destiny it isn't something you can read on a book. it isn't something you can know before it happens.
and of course it's always a choice too. it's not something forced on people.

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Zan may have cared for Ava on Antar. But that was on Antar. Not Earth. It proved when Max and Liz fell for each other. They were each other destinies.

honestly.. i don't give a damn about Z&A

that was so useless and boring
just a legend created by Tess in order to give Max a reason and give her a chance. no more no less.
(notice how at the beginning they were just programmed mates for her. casually she started with the legend about Z&A love only after she heard that they were the royal four

)
so if they loved each other or hated each other and they even killed each other is irrelevant for me. they died peace to their souls.
from what we know Zan could have been married with more than a female of his species or he had tons of concubines in order to have more heirs. from what we know it's even possible that Zan and Ava weren't actually married because the momogram didn't call her "wife" but used a word that means someone who is about to marry... so basically it left it open.
we really don't know and it doesn't seem to me that the writers cared so much about the past life.

anyway Max is not really Zan, he doesn't have his soul (even the soul can be different on antar. after all we humans don't know what a soul really is, maybe for them it's the dna). a soul can't be cloned. and no one in the canon ever said that his soul was transfered into a new body. it was said that Zan's dna was duplicated.
so Max is his clone. his heir. clones can't be the same people their donors were otherwise Max should marry and love the wife of his human donor too since it was 50/50

Max is Max. he isn't neither his human donor nor his alien donor. he's himself. and Liz loved him for him not because she hoped that he could be another person he wasn't.

apart from that i don't even think that antarians love in the same way we love. why they should? i don't think that they live it in the same way. they're aliens, they're different.
they don't have our culture. even in our planet love isn't the same for all the people and cultures. they could "kiss" with parts of bodies we don't even have.

the past life story was crap. so lame and full of inconsistencies
i want something more concrete and proved than the biased words from a woman with her own agenda

especially when everything in the show and the real concrete facts contradicted her. in the present she had nothing real.

Kivar and Vilandra were a more concrete thing than Z&A. the writers developed more their storyline than Zan's.
and in the end Isabel still won. Jesse wasn't her soulmate but Isabel didn't love Kivar just because Vilandra did.

i believe that the message was clear.

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So true. The fact Max risked death TWICE to save Liz. He was dust and came back all because of his love for Liz. That is true love. Soulmates.

Destiny.

He waited since third grade. He loved her at first sight. That is true love.

into a way it's the proof that he will always be there. he will always protect her.
their love goes beyond death.

that terrible experience was, into a way, good for him
i love how he was positive after it. he just wanted to live the moment

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Very weird. Unless Isabel was short in stature on Antar. I don't see how she could get Isabel and Tess confused

i don't know. i get the impression that they were all the same
everytime they said that Isabel was more beautiful on antar.. well i always thought that we human girls could get offended

i mean, she most likely was bald, green/grey body, big black eyes. that's not beautiful

Celebrianna · 02-28-2009, 04:12 PM

Love that artwork from Tale of Two Parties and I especially love the scene.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

what i mean is that Max wasn't like the other male characters of the other tv.shows. circumstances can't be just a detail and i can't put him in the same place of all the many cheaters of tv because his example is completely different.

True, but do most see it like you and I? Probably not. That's why they sympathize with Liz's pov over Max's, which is quite unfair to Max, objectively speaking.

I mean, just think of it. There was absolutely no reason for Max to think that it wasn't completely over with Liz. She made it quite clear to him. So why shouldn't he move on with his life? Granted, the whole Tess thing was a colossal mistake but he really didn't owe Liz anything. They were over. Kaput. Done.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

also he always took the responsibility of his actions. he didn't run from problems he faced them and admitted his faults even to someone who tried to kill him (Kal), he apologized even when he could have avoided it.
and he was always honest about his feelings.

You hit on yet another quality I like about Max. He was an honest guy. I like the way he spoke his mind. He didn't play games. Anyway, even though I didn't like the Max/Tess situation, I did give him his props for standing beside the wench. I liked that. And I liked that he was willing to sacrifice his own desire to do what was right. That's truly Honorable. Gah, he probably would've married Tess too. *headdesk*

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

what i hate about the storyline is just the way M&L are put against each other.

Yes, that was awful to watch. They were like two crazy people, in a way. ROFL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

people are not robots just because a book said that they have to be together (for no concrete reason) it doesn't mean that they can fall in love with each other.
it's unnatural, stupid and squalid.
nature always prevails.
people can't create what it isn't there from the start.

So true.

On another note, I've tried to understand Liz's need to separate from Max after that Destiny episode and I've come to understand her feelings. I mean, it's pretty heavy stuff when you think about the fact that you might be standing in the way of saving an entire race. That must have been hard for her.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

above all if Max was really Zan he would have remembered his life from the start with no need to "remember" in the first place.

What I never understood is how would a clone have memories of a past life. It's a bunch of hogwash if you ask me. It's not even reincarnation.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

you know something similar happened in the original story too.
in the end of Melinda's books Liz saved Max's life and she was what kept him alive.
the scene in the books is more sci.fi
his molecules spread in the universe found hers, merged with hers and they embraced becoming a shining star.

Oh that is so romantic. So, where does her books end? Graduation?

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

even when they tried to change the future they still loved and married in the end.
above all it's amazing that with all the planets in the universe they sent Max in our planet, in roswell new mexico, in the right time where 40 years later he could find her and they were the same age. when the antarians created him Liz wasn't born yet.
if that wasn't real fate and destiny i don't know what can be.

It was fate. And when fate has sealed it, nobody can break it.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

but she didn't run from him even if she had everything to lose, she wasn't forced to be with him..... she was human and normal and she wanted to be invisible. Liz totally changed her way to see life, she started to live the moment and to follow her heart. she made the decision to protect him no matter what. and this happened because she fell in love with him. and love doesn't give you a choice.

Very true. I couldn't agree more. The thing is, I've seen it repeatedly said that Liz gave up so much for Max. I think otherwise. I think she gave up a lot to be with Max, not for him. She wasn't forced to do it. She gave up those things because, above all, she wanted to be with Max. She valued his love and she wanted the reward of being with him.

It's like Arwen in Lord of the Rings. She didn't give up her immortality for Aragorn; she gave up her immortality because she wanted to be with Aragorn. It was the price that she had to pay for love. To experience the reward of love. She chose love in a single lifetime over life eternal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

one of the most important things into this show is that the main couples aren't just couples. into a way these characters are the characters we love because of the ones they loved. it's one of the reasons of why i don't read uc ff because if you put Liz with someone else she can't be the same Liz i love because the Liz i love was that way because she was in love with Max and for him she changed-->was herself. the same goes for Max.

I also share your feelings about that. I think people can indeed help to shape and mold others into the people they are. Max changed Liz and Liz changed Max. Same with Maria and Michael. I always like to think that Liz showed Max how to let go of his perpetual control and live in the moment (or express himself) and Maria taught Michael how to open his heart and let love in.

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Originally Posted by Jasper1975 (View Post)

Max and Michael were with their true loves and soulmates on their flee from Roswell but Isabel was alone; without the one she loved. Kyle to. Neither seemed to find that one great love.

I think Kyle and Isabel had nice chemistry.

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Originally Posted by Jasper1975 (View Post)

I do think Isabel loved Jesse; just not that earth shattering connection that both Max and Michael had Liz and Maria.

Yeah, I think so too.

*Coccy* · 03-01-2009, 04:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Celebrianna (View Post)

You hit on yet another quality I like about Max. He was an honest guy. I like the way he spoke his mind. He didn't play games. Anyway, even though I didn't like the Max/Tess situation, I did give him his props for standing beside the wench. I liked that. And I liked that he was willing to sacrifice his own desire to do what was right. That's truly Honorable. Gah, he probably would've married Tess too. *headdesk*

i don't think that he would have married her.

that's too much and like we said he's honest he couldn't make such a show. He never told her that he loved her, never. nor he showed it. He was honest about his feelings and Tess couldn't whine about what she didn't get because she knew the truth and she herself admitted it more than once.
She also saw Liz into his mind everytime they were together. if she was still delusional even with all that evidence it wasn't Max's fault. into a way this is what make me hate her even more because she knew the truth, she knew that he was unhappy and he didn't really want to be with her but she didn't care. never-
. she still followed the plan. she would have forced him to leave his home and the people he loved if she wouldn't have got busted. even when Michael said good bye and Max and Isabel were sad she still coldly pushed for them to go

if that wasn't the ultimate proof that she cared only about what she wanted...
i also can't forget that first scene from departure when they were all in the pods chamber and Max had to start the granlith but he was still doubtful just like Michael and Isabel. because they obviously didn't want to go

and Tess saw it.
and what she did? she pretended that she was in pain again (and we know that the "baby is sick" was a dirty trick and a lie) so Max was put back on his duty for the baby and he activated the granlith because he simply had no choice. i hate her so much in that scene

he was with her just for the baby, for duty. and then he saw her true colors he got rid of her without a second thought.
but he almost sacrificed his happiness for that b**ch and she didn't care, she never apologized. but after all he was supposed to die so why care about his feelings? it does make sense.

i don't blame him if in the end he didn't give a single damn when she died like that (actually only Liz talked about her death. for the others it was just another day. they didn't even talk about it. it was like if nothing happened)

i'm glad that in the end he got what he wanted and was happy. he had the right to be happy like everyone.
same goes for Liz.

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On another note, I've tried to understand Liz's need to separate from Max after that Destiny episode and I've come to understand her feelings. I mean, it's pretty heavy stuff when you think about the fact that you might be standing in the way of saving an entire race. That must have been hard for her.

Liz loved him, really loved him. and she was able to sacrifice her happiness for him. she was totally the opposite of Tess (who never gave a damn about what the group wanted and she abandoned the group in the first timeline just because Max didn't want to be her toy while their purpose was to be a group and then betrayed them in the second timeline).. She wasn't selfish, even if people in love are never selfish for me.

she never wanted to him choose between her and his "destiny" (as a king)
but in the end her sacrifice, their sacrifice, is what made them deserve their happy end. after a year of pain they could be finally together.
also together they were stronger.
i also believe that M&L had to sacrifice way too much of their time together for nothing.
in the end see what happened: Alex died and Max&Co almost died too.

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What I never understood is how would a clone have memories of a past life. It's a bunch of hogwash if you ask me. It's not even reincarnation.

the memories were most likely mindwarps because they never got them without some "help"- casually Max's stopped as soon as Tess was out of the picture. how casual

and since she had a plan i don't see why she shouldn't have created those useful memories. she really needed them, after a year she was desperate.
BUT the dupes had memories too. even more than the royal four in roswell.
so it's even possible that the antarians programmed them like that. they implanted memories in the same way Max gave a memory to his son.

if you make a clone of another person you know that this new person won't help you if you don't give him/her a reason to feel linked to a planet that isn't home for him/her. maybe the antarians knew this limit, they knew that Max&Co weren't really Zan&Co and they needed to make them more similar.
i remember how in the third season Isabel felt that Vilandra was like a ghost inside her. but it wasn't real and in the end Isabel won not Vilandra.

anyway the memories never happened into a spontaneous way. even Isabel in Interrupts was under Kivar's influence. like Max she didn't spontaneously get the memories

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Oh that is so romantic. So, where does her books end? Graduation?

i don't remember if the original story ends in graduation. the timeline is different
maybe the television series went more in the future compared to the books.

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It was fate. And when fate has sealed it, nobody can break it.

word.

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Very true. I couldn't agree more. The thing is, I've seen it repeatedly said that Liz gave up so much for Max. I think otherwise. I think she gave up a lot to be with Max, not for him. She wasn't forced to do it. She gave up those things because, above all, she wanted to be with Max. She valued his love and she wanted the reward of being with him.

It's like Arwen in Lord of the Rings. She didn't give up her immortality for Aragorn; she gave up her immortality because she wanted to be with Aragorn. It was the price that she had to pay for love. To experience the reward of love. She chose love in a single lifetime over life eternal.

exactly. there's always a price to pay. but in the end Liz had no regrets because without him she was incomplete.

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I also share your feelings about that. I think people can indeed help to shape and mold others into the people they are. Max changed Liz and Liz changed Max. Same with Maria and Michael. I always like to think that Liz showed Max how to let go of his perpetual control and live in the moment (or express himself) and Maria taught Michael how to open his heart and let love in.

yep. quoting Jason Behr about the "i believe in you" scene

"It was more about... without you i couldn't become the person I'm now. And I think that throughout the season no matter what has happened.. good or bad.. it made these people who they're i think that's the way it is with life. That choices that we make in our lives and the people that we know help us, in one way or another, be the people we're. And that moment he was thanking her for helping open his eyes to a complete different world. She's a sane voice, some sort of reasoning. The person that he trust the most is Liz who knows him better, I think, than anybody"

and i can't agree more with him

~*Sonia E.*~ · 03-01-2009, 08:34 AM

Cute title Kem.

Love all the caps and art!

Ya'll ladies have been very busy and I'm still trying to catch up.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

personally i never sided with more Max or Liz. yes i defend him a lot because he's the one more criticized (at least in the boards i read) so most of the time i have to for the sake of a specific discussion but i accept their flaws and their mistakes especially since they took the responsibility of them. i see them as a whole and i understand both their separated povs and i don't want to blame one of them only because i know that in the end it wasn't even really their fault, in the first place.

I used to see everything from Liz's POV and that wasn't fair to Max. Liz was no angel and walked away from Max when he never wanted her to. Then she lied to and manipulated him for the sake of saving the world. I don't blame Max nor Liz for the choices and mistakes that they made because it was their right to make them. Neither Max nor Liz never wanted to intentionally hurt each other, even though they did. I LOVE both Max and Liz together and apart, I'm a Dreamer, always was and always will be.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

for example if i say that it wasn't only Max's fault and Liz was to blame too because she didn't tell him the truth about FMax i'm not saying that Max's mistake was Liz's fault itself but that they both influenced each other actions to a degree, that they both acted that way for a reason and they had to face the consequences of their actions. and they did.
basically my opinion about them is the same opinion they had about each other in the third season because unlike what some people believe the truth is that Liz forgave Max (because she knew that it wasn't only his fault and she *understood* him even if she was still hurt) and Max forgave Liz and he never kept records of what she had created in the second season.

Exactly!

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

(another thing that didn't make sense with the theory that Alex was killed by the skins or Kivar. again, these kind of enemies don't need to hide what they did. they didn't need such a show in order to cover their self. it's stupid - itself it already didn't make sense that they would make Max&Co a favor by translating the book and then leave it like that for them to find come on - This is something that only a fake friend needs to do. someone that can't be busted)

Great point!

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

what i mean is that Max wasn't like the other male characters of the other tv.shows. circumstances can't be just a detail and i can't put him in the same place of all the many cheaters of tv because his example is completely different.

True. I believe that's why a lot of female fans especially Dreamer female fans had a big problem with Max having sex with Tess on a observatory floor. Max was never perfect, but he was caring, respectful, trustworthy, honest, a real gentleman. For Max to sleep with Tess because he had 'lost' everyone was a big blow to his character. I understood perfectly why Max slept with Tess and he owed Liz nothing, I just didn't like TPTB taking Max where he never should have gone. I feel the same way about Liz's character too, TPTB didn't do Liz any justice by turning her into a lying manipulator in order to get Max to lay down with Tess. Liz was lying since the Pilot to help Max and the aliens, but then she started lying to the guy that she loved and it turned out to be one big mess.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

what i hate about the storyline is just the way M&L are put against each other.
how they both felt responsible for things that weren't their fault (Alex's death. because for me they both felt responsible and they were so unreasonable for this reason too)
i also hate that an innocent baby got used like that and basically had to pay for a mistake that his parents did. maybe being totally human was really a gift for the baby but still.... it wasn't fair.

I've never liked that Max and Liz were pitted against each other over Alex's death. I still believe TPTB took that storyline too far between Max and Liz. Any other storyline where angst and drama was needed I probably could have accepted, but not Max and Liz fighting over Alex's death. It's funny how some can accept certain aspects of S2's storylines where Max and Liz are concerned like: Liz lying to and manipulating Max for the sake of saving the world, Max losing his balance and sleeping with Tess on an observatory floor and getting her pregnant, but then cry foul over Tess being labelled as a 'murdering traitor.' You know because the obviousness of it wasn't stamped across her forehead for the world to see.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

destiny was crap. the stupidest storyline ever made. lol
people are not robots just because a book said that they have to be together (for no concrete reason) it doesn't mean that they can fall in love with each other.
it's unnatural, stupid and squalid.
nature always prevails.
people can't create what it isn't there from the start.

WORD! Especially if 'destiny' only pertained to Max and Tess being in a romantic relationship!

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

i don't know. i get the impression that they were all the same
everytime they said that Isabel was more beautiful on antar.. well i always thought that we human girls could get offended

i mean, she most likely was bald, green/grey body, big black eyes. that's not beautiful

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Originally Posted by Celebrianna (View Post)

True, but do most see it like you and I? Probably not. That's why they sympathize with Liz's pov over Max's, which is quite unfair to Max, objectively speaking.

I mean, just think of it. There was absolutely no reason for Max to think that it wasn't completely over with Liz. She made it quite clear to him. So why shouldn't he move on with his life? Granted, the whole Tess thing was a colossal mistake but he really didn't owe Liz anything. They were over. Kaput. Done.

I'm one of those female fans who used to see everything from Liz's POV and I agree it wasn't fair to Max. Neither Max nor Liz owed each other anything when Liz pretended to sleep with Kyle and Max actually slept with Tess and got her pregnant because they were over. Liz followed FMax's bidding instead of coming clean with Max, and it caused nothing but more heartache and pain for the both of them.

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Originally Posted by Celebrianna (View Post)

You hit on yet another quality I like about Max. He was an honest guy. I like the way he spoke his mind. He didn't play games. Anyway, even though I didn't like the Max/Tess situation, I did give him his props for standing beside the wench. I liked that. And I liked that he was willing to sacrifice his own desire to do what was right. That's truly Honorable. Gah, he probably would've married Tess too. *headdesk*

As Liz told Sean in HoM, "Max is an incredibly, incredibly honorable guy," and it's so true. I loved that about Max and that's why I didn't like TPTB giving Max a personality transplant in order to pair him with Tess. Max still had some of his traits like when he cared for Tess, and stood by her when she told him that she was pregnant. Max also was looking for an apartment for he and Tess to live in with the baby, though Tess wanted to go 'home' to Antar. Hell, Max was leaving the planet with Tess never to see and hear from Liz again, well until Tess's true colors came out. I don't know if Max would have married Tess or not, but I'm glad TPTB didn't go that route.

I believe they went way too far with the storylines in S2 and then tried to fix it later on, but it was too late.

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Originally Posted by Celebrianna (View Post)

What I never understood is how would a clone have memories of a past life. It's a bunch of hogwash if you ask me. It's not even reincarnation.

'Hogwash' is an appropriate term for sure!

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

i don't blame him if in the end he didn't give a single damn when she died like that (actually only Liz talked about her death. for the others it was just another day. they didn't even talk about it. it was like if nothing happened)

Showing Max not talking or caring about Tess's death is very telling indeed. After everything that happened between Max and Tess, you would think TPTB would have shown Max feeling something.

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

i'm glad that in the end he got what he wanted and was happy. he had the right to be happy like everyone.
same goes for Liz.

I completely agree. Max and Liz deserved their happy ending and I was ecstatic for them!

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

Liz loved him, really loved him. and she was able to sacrifice her happiness for him. she was totally the opposite of Tess (who never gave a damn about what the group wanted and she abandoned the group in the first timeline just because Max didn't want to be her toy while their purpose was to be a group and then betrayed them in the second timeline).. She wasn't selfish, even if people in love are never selfish for me.

Liz and Tess both lied to and manipulated Max. The difference is that Liz never did it for self-gain, unless you include saving the world, but Tess did it only for herself and what she wanted. Selfish is a word I never associated with Liz and Max, making mistakes and bad choices...yes, but selfish no. If Max and Liz were selfish, then I hope ALL the characters are held to the same standards when it comes to their 'selfishness.'

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Originally Posted by *Coccy* (View Post)

i also believe that M&L had to sacrifice way too much of their time together for nothing.
in the end see what happened: Alex died and Max&Co almost died too.

Me too. There were many storylines where angst and drama could have unfolded without taking both Max and Liz where they never should have gone in the first place.