Melissa Ann

Everyone is different. There are some that believe in parts of the paranormal, but not in other parts, which is weird.

But it comes from their religious views on the topic.

clueless01

It's not that weird when you think about it though, I mean like you said it comes from their religious views. And when you think about religion, across the multitude of religions and then their denominations they all seem to believe in certain aspects and not in others, which changes for every denomination and religion.

Melissa Ann

That's true.

Like some believe in the devil and some say that the devil is a Catholic thing and is not real.

But at the same time, if there is good, there must be evil.

I heard this quote somewhere and am not sure what to think about it. Let me know what you think of it:

"Evil is proof of God."

clueless01

Maybe. But then, what is proof of evil? I think it depends what you count as evil, if there's proof of satan like it says in the bible, then that would be a tick for God in the evidence column, but I wouldn't say that someone being perceived as evil because they murdered someone or whatnot is proof of satan/pure evil. I'm of the belief that no one or nothing is pure evil, and no one or nothing is pure good.

Melissa Ann

Well there is also the topic that people debate over regarding whether someone can be 'born bad'. Like murderers.

I don't believe that someone can be 'born bad'. I feel it is learned and what is inflicted on them as children can develop.

But the contradiction to that is, there are children who grow up in a 'perfect' homelife, their family has money, they have both their parents, good education, yet they can become murderers.

So is a murderer born bad?

This is getting into the psychological aspect of things, and isn't as paranormal as other topics we've discussed, but it's intriguing. Mostly because there have been cases where a murderer or defendant claims that the voices told them to do it, or a spirit possessed them and they did it.

I do believe in possession, but I don't know that I believe a spirit could force someone to kill another human being.

clueless01

It's tricky one, the whole nature vs nuture argument. I think that people who are coldblooded murderers have a psychological problem, which they may have been born with i.e., it is part of their nature, but I don't know if that necessarily qualifies them as a bad person to begin with. Well, I guess it does in the popular accepted use of the word 'bad', but are they truly bad until they actually kill someone? I mean, does a person become bad once they've killed another? Or is the second they decide to kill someone?

I really don't know.

I'm talking about coldblooded killers, because to me it's a whole other story if it's heat of the moment/aggravated killing.

People generally have a lot of excuses as to why they did something. Somepeople use the old, "God told me to", or yeah, the "I was possessed." The scary thing is that I think quite often it is a psychological problem and that they genuinely believe that God/spirit was telling/forcing them to.

Melissa Ann

Based on your comment about the 'nature vs. nature' aspect. I sort of feel like in a way that you're screwed with that because it doesn't matter if you nurture someone, it's in their DNA. Plus nature and their surroundings effect their take on things.

So in short, I don't feel N vs N is valid, if that makes sense. It's like it gets cancelled out.

But I do agree that someone who is a cold blooded killer is different from someone who does it in the heat of the moment, because a lot of the time, it takes something to set someone off.

I've heard on different news shows when profiling killers that anyone is capable of murder, it's that factor that will set them off that is unknown.

Personally I don't feel I could ever be capable of murder, but when you think of situations you could be put in, for example, if you had kids and their life was on the line, I feel if needed I would be capable of murder if it meant saving kids.

It's a very in depth subject, and people could go on and on about how they could never do it, but if put in the right predicament, you could surprise yourself. Which is a scary thought.

clueless01

I don't think I'm quite sure what you're saying?

With the kids thing, I think it's human instinct to act to protect children. So generally speaking, I guess every mother is capable of murder in a situation where their kid is threatened.

I think more people would be capable of murder than some might think.

Melissa Ann

Nature is the environment and surroundings and the world around you, Nurture is what you are brought up with in regards to your parents.

So if you had a bad childhood because of how your parents 'nurtured' you, you could be a killer because of that, but nature is the same. The environment can cause havoc on your life with it's different influences and if life deals you a lemon you're screwed.

So I mean it doesn't matter if it's Nature or Nurture, they can cancel each other out if the result from both is the same, negative.

I hope that makes sense, it makes sense in my head...lol

clueless01

I think we define Nature and Nuture as different things.
My definition of Nature is your basic nature as a human being, like your DNA.

Whereas, Nuture is your upbringing, yeah, but I always assumed that included your surroundings.

But I think I get that. So you're saying it doesn't matter whether it was nature or nurture that caused the person to be a killer, because end result is that they are a killer, anyway?

Melissa Ann

^^ Yes exactly.

So it made partial sense...

Camibra

The character 'Dexter' from the tv show of the same name is a prime example of both Nature and nurture making him a killer. He was 4 years old and his brother was 6 years old when they were locked in a shipping container and watched their mother be chainsawed to death then they were locked inside the container in an inch of their mother's blood for 2 hot Florida days... His brother who was older was beyond the age where nurture could help him after that incident so he eventually became a serial killer with no morals - your typical killer. Dexter was nurtured by the cop who found him after the 2 days locked in the container and knew he was at the age where he could be nurtured to an extent to not go down that dark path that the incident would undoubtedly been pathed for him, the cop adopted him and trained him to only kill people who were 100% bad and deserved it (he knew he wouldn't be able to nullify the man that Dexter would have become due to those tragic events so he made some sort of sense to the young boy and nurtured him as he grew up - otherwise he would have just killed and been caught and killed himself. Just like his older brother who had no nurture after the tragic event and he became a killer in the classic sense with no morals or code. Dexter before the tragic event took place was your normal 4 year old boy, happy and had good upbringing - nurture. then that event changed his psyche so much that he would have to let it out in a similar fashion - the cop foster father knew this would happen so he did the only thing he could. This show is so complex on many levels and if you have not seen it, I recommend it highly. But start from the very beginning! Nurture can also come from areas other than your parents. This Dexter example is but one. Another is if you were seriously bullied through your school life. You could either crawl into your shell for many years afterwards and during the intimidation or you could become like them. They would have in a way nurtured you that way, into submission or to be like them. It is up to that individual's nurture at home then that makes them choose subconsciously which path they will take.

I mean, there is a common idea that if a child were abused by his father let's say throughout his childhood - that child will one day grow up and do the same thing, that could happen. But depending on that individual he or she might do the exact opposite just to not endure that torment on his/her child that he/she had. So things are much more complex than simply yes or no, black or white - there are many shades of grey and so many variables.

Melissa Ann

Good points! Thanks for your input.

I've never watched Dexter but have heard it's a great show.

I agree with your last statement:

In cases like this, it's more of a choice, you choose to be the bigger person and not do those things, but that is also a part of someone who has morals and values and knows the difference between right and wrong.

Your right on the head with that statement about it being so complex and it's not just black or white.

There are so many variables that come into play and I also don't think it's fair to say that just because someone might have been abused as a child that they are going to grow up to be a killer.

I mean an example of that is from the TV Show Criminal Minds. The head guy "Aaron Hotchner" played by actor Thomas Gibson reveals in the last season that he was abused as a child, but instead of taking that anger and becoming a killer, he went into the FBI to stop those people who did the abusing.

clueless01

I love Dexter, it is a fantastic show, and I love how it explores an entirely different character than every other tv show, because it allows you to see how a person with an entirely different set of thinking works. I don't want to go into too much of a discussion about Dexter, because I don't want to spoil it for others (and in part because I haven't seen past episode 9, season2 yet). What's interesting about that example is that both Dexter and his brother Brian became serial killers, but Brian kills anyone, whereas Dexter selectively only kills other killers who otherwise would not be brought to justice. Both kill in other to satisfy a thirst, or a need to kill. Dexter does it in a more morally acceptable way because he had a code instilled into his by his adoptive father, whereas his brother didn't have a stable family after his mother's death. I don't know that their serial killer tendencies are a result of some innate wiring, as both seem to have come to be killers a result of a personal experience that was part of their nuture, and the way they kill was further influenced by the different personal experiences they had thereafter.

This discussion reminds me of a the novel We Need To Talk About Kevin, that I read a few years back, it's from the view of a mother whose son massacred some of his classmates, and it explores the idea of nature vs nurture. The mother describes Kevin as detached emotionally from when he was a baby, in fact his psychopathic nature seems to be present from perhaps even when he was an infant.
I wouldn't think it's a choice so much, but if it is a choice, it's really more a subconscious one.

There's so many complex issues in this discussion, because what's right and wrong varies from person to person, I wouldn't imagine that it varies too drastically within a society, but I bet my definition of right and wrong wouldn't directly match the next persons.

Camibra

Even Dexter himself has doubts about himself. He once said: "Am I a good man doing bad things, or a bad man doing good things?"