welshgirlyUK

Source.

To be honest i feel quite strongly in opposition of forced marriages as i have a friend whose family originated from pakistan and her parents are trying to arrange her marriage and force her back to Pakistan, despite being born and raised in Britain and classifying herself as 100% British. A few male cousins and uncles are quite violent and despite being of legal age they get really angry with her whenever they see her clubbing or at parties with us, especially considering our group of friends is made of of males and females. They hate to see her with any males that are not Pakistani and say it will ruin there chances of marrying her off if she's seen with a British guy. The possibility terrifies her and now she refuses to go with her family when they go to Pakistan to visit because she's almost positive she wont be allowed to come back and be forced into marriage if she does go. No man or woman should have to live in fear of that.

Indian Summer

I think it's a complicated issue- it's definitely a cultural thing, and there's many practitioners who don't view it as negative in the slightest. I think instead of trying to end it all together, there needs to be some kind of system set up where a woman such as your friend can go for protection... Like to ensure that if she were to go to Pakistan with her family and hadn't returned within a certain amount of time, the British government would step in and declare any marriage void if she was an unwilling participant.

sunnykerr

But they do make the distinction between arranged marriages and forced marriages, don't they? I have nothing against arranged marriaged, if both groom and bride consent. It's not for me, but who am I to say that other people may not want it? Not to mention that, indeed, sometimes it is part of the cultural heritage of people. So, yeah, I'm all for keeping that legal.

But forced marriage means that someone is entering into the union against their will. And that's not right, as far as I see it anyway.

Indian Summer

I think the issue, though, is how they make the distinction between arranged and forced. There's too much subjectivity there for me to be comfortable with them stepping in unless they're expressly requested to do so, except in extreme cases (young children and that type of thing). Obviously, I'm totally for it if you have a girl or woman standing up and saying that no, she doesn't want this, but what about the cases where a teenage girl is willingly entering into marriage, but because she isn't "of age" for the rest of British society, it's considered "forced?" I just have a sick feeling that it will become a cultural thing- ie. if white British parents signed off saying their 15 year old daughter could get married, it wouldn't be considered forced, but if it was Indian parents or any other culture that arranged marriages were expected from, it would be a bigger issue.

Lexis

I don't think any 15 year old could -or should- legally get married in the UK, white or not.

Indian Summer

I don't see why not. It's certainly rare, but I'm not comfortable forcing westernization on minority groups just because of where they live. I don't think twelve year olds should be able to get married, but at fifteen... we have to remember that it was only recently that fifteen wasn't considered "adult," and not all cultures follow the same rules for when someone's of age. For instance, the drinking age is lower in Canada and most of the world than it is in the United States, but I wouldn't call them "backward" or the United States too "strict." Different societies have different laws and norms- this forced westernization is getting to be way, way too much.

sunnykerr

I don't know...

Is the right to get married as a teenager any part of Indian, Middle Eastern, Asian or Afrian (or whatever other) culture?

I mean, I understand that you can't define culture in very precise terms all the time. But I don't think having secular laws enforced across the board is an assault on anyone's cultural integrity.

Of course, that means that all request for parental permisison to allow teenagers to get married must be treated equally.

But I don't really see how enforcing a law on that issue, if it is enforced equally and without prejudice, is derogatory to anyone's cultural rights.

Yes, in some cultures, people are considered adults at an incredibly young age (or, at least, young from my Western perspective). But then minority groups who live in England shouldn't be exempt from the law because things are done differently in their countries of origins. We're not talking about things that would fundamentally violate their cultural integrity here. If the practice of marrying young is common in certain parts of the world, then so be it. But that's not the case in England. And there's something to be said for obeying the laws of where one lives.

Lexis

See, I would understand that if we were talking about forcing Hindus to eat a roast beef dinner or forbidding Muslims from worship in the UK.

But these laws aren't about "westernization", they are about protecting young people from being manipulated and abused. Forced marriage is a big problem in the UK and there are a number of groups trying to raise awareness.

We had a recent case of a young woman murdered on the orders of her father and uncle after her father had already tried to murder her himself. She reported it but no action was taken - then she went missing and her body was found a few months later, buried in a suitcase in someone's back yard.

Now clearly, this is the exception not the rule but I want my country to do all possible to protect people from all cultures, not pretend that things like forced marriage, threats of death and murder are acceptable if they are done under the banner of culture or religion.

Maybe I'm ethnocentric but I sure as hell don't think forced marriage of 15 year olds is right and I'm not going to pretend to go along with something I think is harmful.

Who used the words backwards or strict?

There are different social norms across the globe - to me, that doesn't mean they are all equal.

Is stoning someone to death for adultery a just punishment? To me, it isn't - not going to pretend otherwise. Is forcing a child to marry someone right? Again, for me, no.

We don't allow parents to decide that their kids shouldn't get an education in the UK or to force them to work in a factory from age 12 - it is our norm, I agree with it.

Again, this is not about culture its about protecting those who need it.

Indian Summer

That's the point, though- no one uses words like "backwards" when describing a western culture in general. But western society has a very negative view of the cultures of the rest of the world, and that's what I'm not comfortable with.

I'd be totally for this if I actually thought a law that looked into minors being married with parental permission could be carried out in an unbiased manner. But I don't see whether or not the marriage was arranged not being a factor.

I'm not saying there should be a free for all of 12 year old's getting married. Just that what works for the majority culture isn't necessarily going to work for the minority, and sometimes it isn't fair to hold those groups to the same standards.

Lexis

See, I don't think this is an issue where culture is the primary reason for doing something - its about stopping the abuse of children.

Like it or not, our laws clearly state what ages people are allowed to do things (drink, join the military, get married etc) and that's the law. Its for all of us to obey, regardless of our religion or cultural background.

That said, I do think it is acceptable for western cultures to object to things they think are wrong, regardless of who is doing it. I don't think just because you don't share a religion or culture with someone, you should be forced to shut up when you see something you think is wrong.

This law would apply to all people in the UK - so how wouldn't that be unbiased?

And as has been pointed out, there is a diffirance between arranged and forced marriage. One of my friends says she is happy for her parents to help arrange her marriage - that's what works for her. But if someone objects, parents should not be allowed to force them.

elisheva

Agreed Cultural relativism only goes so far.

Also, I mean, my grandmother got married at 12. That's because she lived in a culture (in the Atlas mountains in the 1930s-ish) where young people naturally grew up a lot faster (e.g. because life expectancy was way lower). Her daughters and sons all got married only in their 20s, because they moved away. Even though some parts of the culture were still kept - as all immigrant keep parts of their culture, especially when there are ties to the old country - the fact that the dominant culture of the country was a different one meant that there was no way her daughters could reasonably have been married in their teens. Same for say, a Middle Eastern or Indian or whatever family - maybe the mother got married at 12, and now their daughter is 12 as well - but the daughter's experience of being 12 is COMPLETELY different from the mother's - so they can't both be expected to follow the same timing and practices.

Children need to be protected. Sometimes that includes protecting them from what their families would want. Like lexis said, it's not about "your culture is backwards so you can't do this" - it's "this is illegal in our country (because it is not fair to children) and we will enforce that law."

Indian Summer

I think you misunderstand- I'm totally for enforcing the law in general, but I don't see how it can be expected to be carried out evenly. There's racial and ethnic/cultural biases everywhere, and law enforcement and the judicial system aren't exempt.

There's exceptions to that law in general- like when the parent of a 15/16 year old signs a legally binding document saying their child can get married. My concern comes in during this step- I can't see the courts looking at those documents fairly. I think there'd be unfair favoritism toward the family that claims their daughter is getting married for love v. the family who claims their child (willingly) is entering into an arranged marriage. It's one thing to dictate when and how someone can marry, but it's a sticky matter to dictate why.

Lexis

So what do we do? Permit any parent to permit their child to marry so we can be sure to not be accused of cultural bias? Completely ignore our laws and public opinion plus the objections of many groups such as Southall Black Sisters, who work closely with women who experience forced marriage?

I think that if we send a message to these young people that we think its just fine if their mum and dad want to marry them off at age 12 then don't we send the message that they don't really have a way out if they are unhappy with the arrangement?

Indian Summer

No, but I do think there needs to be a more complex system set up to handle those events, and an appeals court with specific guidelines for these kind of cases to at least minimize the risk of cultural bias.

First, I'm not talking about 12 year olds, because I think that's way too young. But teenagers of 14-16, that age range, can make these decisions for themselves and have for centuries. They should be able to decide for themselves whether an arranged marriage is something they want. I guess if you've only had bad experiences with the arranged marriage issue, your opinions are going to be colored by that. But I've known a few girls whose parents intended to marry them off (and two of them have now entered into arranged marriages). Many of these girls don't look at arranged marriage as a bad thing, and think it's the "right" way to handle it, that you can grow to love someone and so on. Just because it isn't yours or my belief system doesn't make it wrong, and it isn't the court's place to say it is.

elisheva

I actually don't believe that that's a decision most 14-16 year olds are capable of making. I think if an 18+ year-old wants to have an arranged marriage, and I know some people who are into that, then great - not my thing, but their choice and I see their reasoning etc. But a 15 year old today is not the same as the 15 year olds who, s you say, have been making such decisions for centuries and should be protected from making an adult decision like that so long as they are a child. And a 16 year old is still a child in many ways.