News & Politics - Topic of the Week #14: Murder in the Family - Honor Killings in America

**vc318** · 07-27-2008, 01:59 AM

FOXNews.com - Murder in the Family: Honor Killings in America - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

When she was just 19, Sandeela Kanwal traveled from America to Pakistan for an arranged marriage to a cousin twice her age.

Less than six years later, she was dead — strangled — and her father, Chaudhry Rashid, was arrested by police as the suspect for what some have called an "honor killing."

After their marriage, Kanwal had lived in the United States apart from her husband, who remained in Pakistan. She was reunited with him in April at her family home in Atlanta, but he moved to Chicago days later, leaving her alone once again.

On July 1, Kanwal filed for divorce, a prospect her father, a 52-year-old immigrant from Pakistan, would not entertain. Investigators say that after an argument on the night of July 5, he strangled Kanwal with a bungee cord. He could not accept the "disgrace" a divorce or affair would bring on his family, according to police.

The United Nations estimates that as many as 5,000 women are murdered in such honor killings each year for offenses like immodesty or refusing an arranged marriage. They may be on the rise in the U.S., as seen anecdotally in Kanwal's death and a handful of other prominent attacks:

• Fifty-year-old Yaser Abdel Said became the focus of a massive manhunt after he allegedly killed his teenage daughters Sarah and Amina — for dating boys against his will. Relatives say he tried to marry off Amina in his native Egypt when she was 16, and he hasn't been seen since the girls were shot to death on New Year's Day.

• Zein Isa, a Palestinian terrorist who lived in St. Louis, was convicted of killing his daughter Palestina in 1989. Investigators say he was furious she had a black boyfriend, went to a school dance and got a job at Wendy's. Palestina's mother held her down as Isa plunged a 9-inch knife into his daughter's chest, actions the FBI picked up on a microphone as they investigated Isa for his terrorist ties.

• Waheed Mohammad, a 22-year-old immigrant from Afghanistan, was shamed by his sister, who he thought was a "bad Muslim girl." At his mother's behest, investigators say, he tried to "stop" his sister, stabbing her multiple times, though she survived and spoke to FOX News.[/i]

Sometimes the police don't even want to get involved in respect to the "beliefs" of these groups. It's sad to think that these things still go on today.

marina86 · 07-27-2008, 02:28 PM

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Originally Posted by vc318 (View Post)

Sometimes the police don't even want to get involved in respect to the "beliefs" of these groups.

I think this upsets me the most. The fact the police doesn't want to get involved to help those women

I've heard about it before and I still don't get why should anyone respect a belief that shows such great disrespect for life.

**sunnykerr** · 07-27-2008, 08:05 PM

Well, and not to say that allowing this to happen is in any way excusable, but it's not always easy to break down the walls of cultural diversity. I'm not saying everyone from the Middle-East is subject to commit this horrendous crimes, far from it.

But part of the problem is that we allow these immigrants to remain in isolated communities. I don't think there are any easy answers, especially since I think it's a bigger problem than just "the cops don't want to get involved."

**vc318** · 07-28-2008, 11:01 AM

I was watching a program about this and there was one instance where this lady was trying to get out of an arranged marriage and she kept contacting the police about how her family wanted to kill her and the police didn't even address it saying that they didn't want to get involved. Soon she was murdered. Now I can understand why these things are on the rise.

**sunnykerr** · 07-28-2008, 07:12 PM

Well, police have a hard time addressing domestic abuse situations in general. The law goes far too easy on stalkers, abusers and harrassers. I'm not saying police couldn't do a better job. I certainly think there are many things that could be improved with the whole system.

I do think that cultural barriers make it harder. Because it muddies waters. Not that a person in distress asking for help isn't asking for that help any the less because they belong to a different culture. But because that victim's distress is often compouned by a very real struggle between "old" cultural values and "new" cultural values.

aerisVII · 07-29-2008, 10:47 AM

I dont think that where a person is from should have any affect on what laws they feel like following. If you are in america, follow american laws. These people are killing other people and need to be taken care of.

**sunnykerr** · 07-29-2008, 11:44 AM

Oh, I completely agree.

I didn't mean to imply that they should be exempt from the law.

I'm just saying that, it seems to me, sometimes there is a cultural barrier that makes it harder for police officers to do their jobs. For instance, we seem to have cultural enclaves, so to speak, which can sometimes compound the isolation that is part of the problem in pursuing these cases. It's hard enough to make charges stick in domestic violence cases, because the victim may defend their abuser. I would imagine that it's that much harder when the victim has the weight of family, neighbours and so-called tradition bearing down on her.

Mind you, it certainly doesn't help when the women are brave enough to call for help despite all of that, but the police ignore their cries.

sum1 · 07-30-2008, 10:00 AM

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Originally Posted by vc318 (View Post)

Sometimes the police don't even want to get involved in respect to the "beliefs" of these groups. It's sad to think that these things still go on today.

I started a thread about honor killings once and there was nonsense about "culture" posted in response. Too many people want to play non-judgemental about honor killings to be politically correct about culture, and the existence of this attitude in society leads to more people being killed in honor killings. Murdering your daughter for "honor" is EVIL no matter what country you live in and no matter what culture you belong to. It should never be tolerated anywhere by anybody.

Also, honor killing isn't just done by Muslims like a lot of people think it is. Here's a horrifying honor killing done by non-Muslims:

Stoning of Du'a Khalil Aswad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here's an account of a mafia honor killing in Italy: Mafioso shoots sister over 'dishonour' - Times Online

**sunnykerr** · 07-30-2008, 05:35 PM

Trying to be politically correct has nothing to do with the awareness that there are cultural aspects to honor killings. And you're not gonna put a stop to anything is you're lumping a whole culture in with one of its nasty aspects. It's certainly not gonna endear anyone to the wouldbe victims who, for all we know, aside from the honor killing aspect (which I'm not saying is negligeable), quite like their own culture.

So I don't think it's nonsense at all to say that there needs to be an awareness and a respect of the cultural element involved, even if the practice itself is appalling and should be stopped by pretty much any means necessary.

sum1 · 07-31-2008, 03:54 AM

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

Trying to be politically correct has nothing to do with the awareness that there are cultural aspects to honor killings.

It has plenty to do with people using culture as an excuse not to condemn honor killings and to do nothing about them. Do you know that someone here on FF said that if people are in their own country and following their country's tradition then maybe honor killing should be allowed? ALLOWED! Murdering your daughter for honor, allowed.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

And you're not gonna put a stop to anything is you're lumping a whole culture in with one of its nasty aspects.

Since when did I say anything about lumping a whole culture in with honor killing? I said absolutely NOTHING that had anything to do with lumping a whole cullture in with anything negative. Please don't put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

So I don't think it's nonsense at all to say that there needs to be an awareness and a respect of the cultural element involved, even if the practice itself is appalling and should be stopped by pretty much any means necessary.

People use the "culture" thing as a reason to do nothing and avoid condemning the practice. That is dangerously misguided and damaging and costs LIVES. The issue with honor killing isn't culture, the issue is a horrible crime. Honor killing should not be respected by being given the label of culture. It should not be treated as a legitimate part of any culture. It's just an obscene aberration. You don't "respect" a practice like honor killing or honor it with the name "culture", you just move against it same as you would against any other seriously disturbing criminal practice. Spousal murder, serial killing, kids shooting up their school, honor killing. There is nothing to "respect" about honor killing. What's to respect in parents slaughtering their daughter because she had an affair? To even mention respect with reference to honor killings is obscene. There doesn't need to be "respect" for honor killing, there needs to be respect for the victims' right to live and for the principle that excuses of culture in no way make murdering your daughter in any way worthy of any sort of respect or tolerance. There needs to be zero tolerance for honor killing, not "respect". And not pussyfooting about culture that leads to victims being left high and dry by the authorities when they come for help to save their lives. People can be left to the mercies of honor killers because the authorities want to to "respect the cultural element involved".

Louise23 · 07-31-2008, 09:02 AM

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

So I don't think it's nonsense at all to say that there needs to be an awareness and a respect of the cultural element involved, even if the practice itself is appalling and should be stopped by pretty much any means necessary.

Awareness of this cultrual crime, yes, but respect of it? I'm not so sure. If we go down this route, it's at risk of becoming excuseable. It's murder and no respect should be shown for that.

**sunnykerr** · 07-31-2008, 10:46 AM

I don't think anyone on this thread has, at any point, come anywhere near to saying that we should respect murderers, whether they do it in the so-called name of family honour or else.

In fact, I do believe my own words were that these criminals should in no way be exempt from the law.

There is no respect to be given to men who commit this crime.

My only concern has been for our ability to reach the wouldbe victim before her death. And all I've ever said about that is that I think it would be easier to reach anyone if we approach them with respect for their cultural values.

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It has plenty to do with people using culture as an excuse not to condemn honor killings and to do nothing about them. Do you know that someone here on FF said that if people are in their own country and following their country's tradition then maybe honor killing should be allowed? ALLOWED! Murdering your daughter for honor, allowed.

Truthfully, I have no recollection of anyone saying on

that honour killings should be allowed.

Obviously, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But, as such a preposterous concept has yet to be brought up on this thread... perhaps we'd do better to debate what we're actually debating now as opposed to what was once the subject of debate.

If you feel that someone is using culture to support honour killings on this thread, feel free to debate them on that,

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Since when did I say anything about lumping a whole culture in with honor killing? I said absolutely NOTHING that had anything to do with lumping a whole cullture in with anything negative. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm sorry you felt personally targetted by my comments. That was in no way my intention. It's true that was bouncing off the idea that a discussion of culture in this context was nonsense, but it's quite clearly possible that I read that as something different than the meaning intended.

In any case, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. In fact, I was using the word "you" in a general matter; like how we say "you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs." I wasn't trying to say that you were doing any lumping any more than I've just implied that you're currently baking an omelet.

Or, you know, I was using the word "you" in the same way you did when you said, You don't "respect" a practice like honor killing or honor it with the name "culture", you just move against it same as you would against any other seriously disturbing criminal practice.

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People use the "culture" thing as a reason to do nothing and avoid condemning the practice. That is dangerously misguided and damaging and costs LIVES.

I think that people have a better chance of doing something about it, something that will have actual results, if they come from a place of culutral understanding and toleration. I don't see how information is the death of action in this case.

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The issue with honor killing isn't culture, the issue is a horrible crime. Honor killing should not be respected by being given the label of culture. It should not be treated as a legitimate part of any culture. It's just an obscene aberration. You don't "respect" a practice like honor killing or honor it with the name "culture", you just move against it same as you would against any other seriously disturbing criminal practice.

I don't think that saying that certain crimes have a cultural element to them is any sign of disrespect. If anything, wouldn't calling them "honour killings" have already committed that sin of given them this alleged respect?

If we're already recognizing the fact that there are different cases of spousal murder, I don't see the big problem with recognizing that that difference lies in the differences of culture. Because, yeah, so-called honour killings happen in a variety of different communitiies, but they're not appearing across the globe either, are they? Show me the WASP who kills his daughter for wanting to marry a non-WASP or for failing to provide her husband with a son, and I'll agree that this has nothing to do with culture.

Till then, I still think that trying to understand an abbheration and a hateful crime does in no way mean that I respect it or the criminals who commit it.

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To even mention respect with reference to honor killings is obscene.

Agreed. But I don't think anyone here's done that, have they? Have I?

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People can be left to the mercies of honor killers because the authorities want to to "respect the cultural element involved".

Once again, agreed.

I just think that police can also alienate the people who need rescuing by failing to respect their cultural values.

Again, don't give a darn about the criminals. Just trying to help the wouldbe victims.

sum1 · 07-31-2008, 02:07 PM

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

I don't think anyone on this thread has, at any point, come anywhere near to saying that we should respect murderers, whether they do it in the so-called name of family honour or else.

No, but you said we should respect the cultural element of honor killing. I think that pretty much amounts to saying we should respect honor killing. It seems to me you're basically saying we should respect honor killing as culture. I disagree with that very strongly. Now maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say, I don’t know.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

There is no respect to be given to men who commit this crime.

What about the women who commit the crime? Like the Palestinian mother who killed her teenage daughter for being raped by her brother, or the mother mentioned in the article above who helped her husband to kill their daughter, or the mother who sent her son to kill her daughter.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

My only concern has been for our ability to reach the wouldbe victim before her death. And all I've ever said about that is that I think it would be easier to reach anyone if we approach them with respect for their cultural values.

Attempts to respect the practice/tradition of honor killing (as in "it's their culture, we must respect it", a common refrain heard on this subject) have led to authorities being unwilling to get involved helping would-be victims, which has led to deaths that could have been avoided. It has also led to people being unwilling to outright condemn honor killings. Respect cultural values by all means, but let's not respecting anything about honor killing.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

Truthfully, I have no recollection of anyone saying on

that honour killings should be allowed.

When I mentioned that, I had in front of me a printout of a post on this board saying that.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

But, as such a preposterous concept has yet to be brought up on this thread... perhaps we'd do better to debate what we're actually debating now as opposed to what was once the subject of debate.

I disagree. People on this thread have already brought up how people's views on honor killings affect how the problem is treated by the authorities. The sort of attitudes people have about honor killings is a subject that is very much relevant to the discussion. That attitude that was posted in the FF post I mentioned is just an example of the sort of attitude some people have on the subject.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

I think that people have a better chance of doing something about it, something that will have actual results, if they come from a place of culutral understanding and toleration. I don't see how information is the death of action in this case.

Cultural understanding and tolerance is important. But all too often when they're invoked with regard to this subject it's code for "I don't want to come out fully condemning honor killing because I'm afraid I'll look politically incorrect doing so." I don't mean to say you mean it that way, but that's what some people mean when they talk about that stuff.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

I don't think that saying that certain crimes have a cultural element to them is any sign of disrespect. If anything, wouldn't calling them "honour killings" have already committed that sin of given them this alleged respect?

I'm not particularly keen on the term "honor killing" but that's the term people use. I'm stuck with it if I want what I'm saying to be understood. Treating honor killing as something cultural we should respect because it's cultural is granting it way too much respect and validity.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

If we're already recognizing the fact that there are different cases of spousal murder, I don't see the big problem with recognizing that that difference lies in the differences of culture. Because, yeah, so-called honour killings happen in a variety of different communitiies, but they're not appearing across the globe either, are they? Show me the WASP who kills his daughter for wanting to marry a non-WASP or for failing to provide her husband with a son, and I'll agree that this has nothing to do with culture.

Actually, you can probably find "WASPs" doing that sort of thing, but they probably wouldn't consider it to be about honor. But evoking the difference in culture in this subject is all too often used to effectively say "It's a different culture so we should respect honor killing as their different way of doing things". Let's remember that so many people in cultures that have honor killings are very strongly against honor killings. Honor killing is not "their" way of doing things. It's the way of a minority of people within the culture. It's an aberration.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

Till then, I still think that trying to understand an abbheration and a hateful crime does in no way mean that I respect it or the criminals who commit it.

Depends on what sort of understanding you're trying to do. Too often talk of being understanding re honor killings is talk about not whole-heartedly condemning the practice. Genuine understanding is valuable and should be pursued, but too often talk of "understanding" really means not supporting the would-be victims enough and not opposing the practice enough.

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

Agreed. But I don't think anyone here's done that, have they? Have I?

You talked of having respect for the cultural element of honor killing, which I think amounts to saying we should respect honor killings, the tradition and practice of honor killings. I don't think we should respect anything about honor killings. (Now maybe I’ve misunderstood what you meant, if so I apologize.)

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Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post)

I just think that police can also alienate the people who need rescuing by failing to respect their cultural values.

Whereas I think the authorities can fail to help would-be victims and properly oppose honor killings because they're more concerned with cultural sensitivity than with preventing horrible crimes. Cultural sensitivity is very important but it should never get in the way of preventing people from murdering their daughters over "honor".

**sunnykerr** · 07-31-2008, 02:36 PM

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

No, but you said we should respect the cultural element of honor killing. I think that pretty much amounts to saying we should respect honor killing. It seems to me you're basically saying we should respect honor killing as culture. I disagree with that very strongly. Now maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say, I don’t know.

I think that you're mistunderstanding me very much if you think I believe there's any respect to be had for people who commit such heinous crimes. I'd very much like to know where my statements led you to believe that so that I may be infinitely more clear in the future.

A also think you're making jumps in logic that aren't mine. I say that so-called honour killings have a cultural aspect to them, yes. And I say we should respect the culture of the wouldbe victims of that heinous crime. In my mind, those two things are entirely separate from saying that so-called honour killings should be respected as a cultural manifestation. There's like a chasm surrounded my Mt Everest on either side of it between the idea that honour killings have a cultural component to them and the idea that we should respect it because of it.

For the record, I do believe that the wouldbe victims of the crime deserve to be respected. I believe it would be more productive of law enforcement to respect these women's cultural beliefs in order to prevenr so-called honour killings. But that's as far as my feelings go in terms of speaking of respect and so-called honour killings.

Again, if I've said anything to the contrary, please point it out to me so that I can redress the misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

What about the women who commit the crime? Like the Palestinian mother who killed her teenage daughter for being raped by her brother, or the mother mentioned in the article above who helped her husband to kill their daughter, or the mother who sent her son to kill her daughter.

What about them? Same crime, same punishment, same attitude. That's all I have to say about that.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Attempts to respect the practice/tradition of honor killing (as in "it's their culture, we must respect it", a common refrain heard on this subject) have led to authorities being unwilling to get involved helping would-be victims, which has led to deaths that could have been avoided. It has also led to people being unwilling to outright condemn honor killings. Respect cultural values by all means, but let's not respecting anything about honor killing.

Well, again, if I have said anything remotely close to "honour killings is their culture, we must respect it," please point it out to me. Because that's about as far from my belief system as you can get.

And just in case my condemnation of so-called honour killings hasn't been vehement enough as yet to leave you confused on where I stand on the issue: I think it's one of the most repulsive, criminal acts there is in existence. And the only reasion I'm not calling it the MOST repulsive one is because I can think of a couple of others that strike as pretty darn despicable, too.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

I disagree. People on this thread have already brought up how people's views on honor killings affect how the problem is treated by the authorities. The sort of attitudes people have about honor killings is a subject that is very much relevant to the discussion. That attitude that was posted in the FF post I mentioned is just an example of the sort of attitude some people have on the subject.

Fair enough. I guess I just haven't seen any posts on this thread proning so-called honour killings or a respectful attitude towards them.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Cultural understanding and tolerance is important. But all too often when they're invoked with regard to this subject it's code for "I don't want to come out fully condemning honor killing because I'm afraid I'll look politically incorrect doing so." I don't mean to say you mean it that way, but that's what some people mean when they talk about that stuff.

Like I said, we agree on this point for the most part.

I've never heard anyone saying "I can't condemn honour killings for fear of looking politically incorrect" myself but, be that as it may, I guess I'm less concerned that cultural understanding and respect will lead to inaction and permissiveness with regards to criminal activities. In my book, if anything, it'll help fight the crime of so-called honour killing all the more effectively.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Actually, you can probably find "WASPs" doing that sort of thing, but they probably wouldn't consider it to be about honor. But evoking the difference in culture in this subject is all too often used to effectively say "It's a different culture so we should respect honor killing as their different way of doing things".

But isn't the motivation behind this horrendous crime the reason why we call them "honour killings"? I mean, I think the rationale is insane and disgusting, but "honour killings" are about rectifying a so-called stain on the family's honour, right? (The very articulation of it makes me sick...)

So, if the WASP wouldn't think of it as an honour thing... the only thing in common in spousal murder.

And I hear you on your point about people not doing anything because of an alleged respect for cultural differences. I understand your position on that point. I happen to think that what prevents action is more of a lack of respect for cultural differences (the whole "that's just their antiquated, barbaric way of doing things" angle coupled with a general desire to not associate with people of different cultures), but I still understand where you're coming from on this one.

But I don't think respect and information prevent action, personally.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Let's remember that so many people in cultures that have honor killings are very strongly against honor killings. Honor killing is not "their" way of doing things. It's the way of a minority of people within the culture. It's an aberration.

Agreed. But let's also remember that it really isn't part of every culture either.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Depends on what sort of understanding you're trying to do. Too often talk of being understanding re honor killings is talk about not whole-heartedly condemning the practice. Genuine understanding is valuable and should be pursued, but too often talk of "understanding" really means not supporting the would-be victims enough and not opposing the practice enough.

Well, hopefully, by now I've made it clear that my position has nothing to do about prevaricating on this issue. So I'm not saying we should try to approach the victims with understanding and compassion by way of saying we should ignore them or fail in our duty to come to their aid.

Hopefully I've made it clear enough that I'm not advocating that we equivocate on this issue or that we leave these women to fend for themselves when I argue that we would have a better chance of helping these women if we came at them with a willingness to understand them and respect them.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

You talked of having respect for the cultural element of honor killing, which I think amounts to saying we should respect honor killings, the tradition and practice of honor killings. I don't think we should respect anything about honor killings. (Now maybe I’ve misunderstood what you meant, if so I apologize.)

I accept your apology.

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Originally Posted by sum1 (View Post)

Whereas I think the authorities can fail to help would-be victims and properly oppose honor killings because they're more concerned with cultural sensitivity than with preventing horrible crimes. Cultural sensitivity is very important but it should never get in the way of preventing people from murdering their daughters over "honor".

The truth is, when I look at the world around me right now, I guess I don't see where we're showing an overabundance of cultural sensitivity. Maybe that's where you and I have a difference in approaches.

Because, clearly, it's not really a difference of opinion here. We're both against so-called honour killings. We both think everything should be done to help the wouldbe victims. We're both in agreement.

It's on the rest that we seem to see things a bit differently.

Jen Jaree · 08-03-2008, 10:50 AM

I am all for respecting cultures and beliefs but not when it involves human sacrifice. How is being raped dishonoring your family? Even if you "dishonor" your family you shouldn't be killed for it. I think the reason for the police's lack of involvement is because our society is so pollitically correct these days that we are terrified about offending someone's religion, race, or ethnic background.