*Ledi*

What do you guys think about patriotism? Are there limits? Do some people take it too far?

The reason I ask is because I have always noticed a difference between the way Canadians feel about patriotism compared to Americans. We are proud of our country here in Canada, but it's rare for people to call out others for being "anti-Canadian" or "not patriotic enough." On the other hand, I hear these terms (anti-American, etc) quite often from my neighbours down south. It's almost as if people can't make certain comments because they will be labeled as anti-American. For example, if someone criticizes the US foreign policy, or believes that the US have brought certain things upon themselves, they are automatically anti-American. I find this quite odd, especially since people here in Canada wouldn't really put such labels on people that criticize the country. So my question is, why is there such a big difference? Why is someone's patriotism questioned over the smallest things? Aren't people allowed to have negative views about their country but still be proud of it at the same time?

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. It would especially be nice if people from other countries could tell us what role patriotism plays in their country, or how much importance it has.

vc318

Hi Ledi. This is a good question. Even though we (America) attack other countries for lack of freedom of speech and so forth, it's happening here in our own backyard. Okay, before someone says "Yeah sure, in some places you can get arrested or killed for speaking against many things but not in the U.S." but it may not be this extreme but it feels just as powerful. For example, Barack Obama's wife recently admitted that for once in her life she is proud of this country (the U.S.). Some may say, "So what?!" However, some have said that this wasn't a good idea since it could hurt her husband's political campaign or possibly it already has. I think you can be both proud of your country yet still feel a disdain for some of the absurd things that go on around you but some people don't think so. Fact is, you're indeed scrutinized for holding any view that isn't "as American as apple pie." Even though I am grateful for the rights we have here, sometime it's hard to feel so "patriotic" about the disheartening things that happen in the U.S. I could go into discussing the war, the economy, the misdirection of the president, but hey - SOME thousands of voters 7 years ago must've thought he was and still is an excellent pick. It's no doubt that some very disgusting things are happening here in the U.S, and even though other places are having it much worse, it's just hard to place your state of mind in any other place but what your thoughts may be of the United States. But what I can say is that in time of need, like 9/11, there is some hope for our country. The generosity given when that sad event happened - people donating blood, our policemen and firefighters risking their lives to rescue the people that were trapped in the towers, and many other kind actions that were shown at that time, helps put some ease in my mind that not all hope is lost. So, in response to your question to if people are labeled for being Anti-American for speaking out, I would definitely say "yes." Most of the time, if someone says your "Anti-American" you can take it with a grain of salt and walk the other way because you have that right to say it and you're only saying what is probably going through the minds of thousands of other Americans who would don't have the courage to say it. However, for some reason, I think many Americans care that our political leaders have some sort of "patriotism" for our country since they make so many of our decisions that are "supposedly" for our good (based on the peoples' feedback). In truth, if a political leader (president, governor, whatever) came out and said "I hate America!" that would make me nervous because he or she could be recruiting other people who may feel the same way and next a nuclear war might break out! I know that sounds extreme but it could happen. Hell, who knows who's telling the truth anyway? Despite all the craziness, I can say there's many great things about living here in America despite living any place else and I should be fortunate but because you speak up against the injustices in this country doesn't mean you aren't patriotic - you're just speaking your mind. However, it can come at a price depending on who you care hears it or not.

ceilirose

I think like this too. The funny (?) thing is that the U.S. was founded by dissidents. But now when people don't agree with certain political views, personalities, decisions you get the anti-American b.s. thrown at you. What would have happened if there wasn't a Boston Tea Party, if people didn't rebel against the English monarchy because of their grievances?

There's nothing more American and more democratic than expressing your view about what's wrong with the country and how/why it should be fixed.

Ledi - it's a great topic. Thanks.

AlexEvans

Yes, you can criticize your country all you want. Other people can criticize you right back. Then you can criticize them for that - as I guess you're doing in this thread.

There's nothing about free speech that says you're entitled to have everyone agree with you.

As for Canada, and labels... think how often you hear things described as "Americanization."

ceilirose

No one is saying you can't criticize people. It's the labeling of people that's rampant and whether it serves a purpose or not.

*Ledi*

Exactly.

sunnykerr

That's a fair point.

We do have a "fear" of being "Americanized." (Using quotation marks here because both my concept of what that fear might be and the way I'm using the word Americanization are huge generalizations.)

Heck, in Quebec, there's a fear of becoming too "English." (Encompassing both English Canada and the U.S.) As a proud French Canadian myself, I am utterly befuddled by that fear as I see absolutely no indication that the French population is becoming any more Englicized than it was when I was a kid. Bleh.

The interesting part of that, though, is that the same point made by the OP still applies. Even as we criticize ourselves, it's not for being anti-Canadian (or anti-Quebecer). It's for taking on the aspects of The Other.

Perhaps more to the point of what I'm trying to get at here is that, while I've heard terms such as anti-American being bandied about down south (and I mean, "south of Canada" by that), I've heard much more about this constant need to identify patriots and national heroes. That's not really a criticism. Actually, it's not a criticism at all. Just an observation.

Whatever it winds up meaning, up here, our national heroes tend to be more of the hockey variety (Romeo Dallaire one of a small group of exceptions I can think of). And it's not like we expect them to be all that heroic. But we admire their skill and whatnot.

When our soldiers die in war, when we see their funerals on TV, it's usually more about who they were as individuals, who their families are.

And when a guy gets elected to a new office, it's generally because it's the next step in his career. I've never heard anyone refer to Stephen Harper as a patriot. Maybe that's because I'm in Quebec, but all the same. Heck, alright, I've never heard anyone refer to Rene Levesque as a patriot or a hero or any kind of paragon. And he's, like, our Dalai Lama (well, without the sweetness and the pacifist cause).

Again, not a criticism. Hailing heroes and patriots is not a bad thing. Far from it.

It's just true that we seem to "label" (if that is indeed the right word) our leaders, our heroes differently.

sm_love_dc

**Side point: Rene was ugly. Always wished that there was some hot guys n Canadian politics*

I am glad that you feel that english canada isn't decending to much into french canada. I have family that is french canadien, and this issue occupies their minds far more than it does me. I am out west, so i guess it is far enough away from the issue. But if you take a french canadien and english canadian and ask them what defines them, somewhere in the conversation they will say, 'we are not american.' (Please do not take offence. It is all we have.)

Is that our patrotism? If it is, man we have to work on this country if we hope to stay together. After the civil war in th US there was a rush of patrotism to bring the country back together again, remember it did break in half. Then there were the world wars and 911, everyone had a common message, 'we are all one'. Canada was part on the British Empire during the two world wars. We did not have those experiences, and what we did have were not our own. 'God save the Queen.' I think our country is still exploring how to work together and therefore do not have the same patrotism as the US.

Americans have taken it a bit to far. I believe that a counrty that believes in free speech and democracy for all, has to allow its citizens the right to protest. Even if it means the buring of the flag. I think the american government has tried to have every american have the same thought every day, 'This America is the right one and we all must be the same' Sounds like a zombie movie to me. Every thought on every issue should be heard and then a decision should be made that is balanced. Aother word that America (and Canada) was founded on. Believing that patrotism has to look the same and everyone needs to have the same idea of what US stands for goes against what the founding fathers where trying to do.

Patrotism is a personal display of comitment to an ideal and believing that it can be achieved. It is an individuals way of expresing what they define to be the truths of their country. So it does not matter if there are flags in the front yard or not. Although it does look nice.

Jen Jaree

Hilarous parodies of Homeland Security

YouTube - Robot Chicken terrorism politics

A Homeland Security Self-Exam

The last one I don't think is an actual exam.

sm_love_dc

very good.

sunnykerr

Another fair point: Our greatest moments of national unity have generally come when we've felt threatened (whether we actually were or not is another story) from an outside force. The American Civil War was very scary for a lot of Canadians because they felt that, if the Unionists won, they would soon their attention North and conquer us.

And the two great world wars are another great example. My father's side of the family is English. My great-grandfather fought in WWI, my grandfather in WWII. On my mum's side, no one fought. Because, being French, no one felt that the British cause was their own. Interesting how they side-stepped the whole "France is being massacred" aspect of it. But Canada was put to work as part of the British Empire, not as its own agent. So maybe that's what they rebelled against: being drafted to serve a country not their own. Who knows. All those fine folk are long gone now.

Maybe the United States has a stronger tradition of naming heroes because that it how they came to be a country in the first place. They fought for their independence. We negotiated ours. We got here in the end, so I have no complaints. But maybe that knowledge changes things. Maybe it creates a need for every generation to identify its Washingtons and its Adams and its Lafayettes (who, technically, was a French citizen, but, hey, it's history, I'm not making it up)...

As for Rene being ugly... That's as may be, but you had to hear him speak to "get" it. The man was a musician. His instrument was the heart of the people and his verve was his song. I've never been a sovereignist in my life and even I get choked up when I listen to his speeches. There's nothing like a person who makes you see and makes you believe in how wonderful you can truly be...

sm_love_dc

I think Rene was one of the great thinkers in Canadian History for sure. He battled some great issues of his time. He gave voice to a very difficult problem with Canadian Unity. I am just saying I could have done without the comb over.