News & Politics - Spain PM may pull troops before June 30th. - Page 2

Bill bobidy · 04-19-2004, 10:14 AM

Don't know quite where to start, there's just so many errors I need to correct [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Anyway....

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I don't agree with the "You're with us or against us" line of thinking, its downright stupid, and takes the whole choice thing away, a pretty important part of democrcy. The "them" however, is referring to terrorists, who have blown up buildings, and committed many atrocities. Terrorists are people of all races. The Nazis "them" were the Jews, who had done nothing wrong. They were one race.

Dipping under the point of the US financing terrorists such as the IRA and giving them guns to murder civilians I'm going to say..

You realise that even though teh IRA are on the two teer list of terrorists in the US there are no sanctions imposed on them?

Funny stuff that my Uncle was shot in the face by one such gun bought from the US, seems my Aunt can't even be contacted anymore, but seriously, he was after all a postal worker which makes him quite the threat.

Perhaps the US should stop supporting Israel who frequently show dissregard for any international treities.

Point is, the US act as a law unto themselves, they are more than happy to support terrorists when it doesn't affect them and even aid them against one of it's closest allies.

Look at both Osama and Sadam, they helped the US achieve objectives and were fully financed by the US but when things get bad the states goes against it's creations.

Just how many men women and kiddie died because of state sponsored war with Iran?

Anyway, sure my use of Nazi may be seen as wrong but it is defined as being govts in bed with scorporations or pretty much taking backhanders from business, Bush gets his campaign financed by big business right?

His friends seem to be profiting from this war through contracts.
So the current US admin may not be copying the german nazi's they're just helping set a whole new standard.

The Jews are irrelevant though I must admit that I have seen a whole new side of ptriotism in the West which sees Muslims treated as scum. Just how many times have you read of a Muslim being beaten up after 9/11.?

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Of course. The left can do that too however. Look at Communist/Stalinist Russia

Using right wing was perhaps not a good idea perhaps I should have said conservative.

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I'm sorry but what the hell? Can you please explain this in proper English? That paragraph makes no sense.

Just read it again, there's a good chap.

My point was meant for those who agree with the "with us or against us" attitude not for anyone else, if I ended up posting something that made it seem addressed to you I apologise but it still stands for those who its meant for.

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And you're a hypocrite. You claim that people who disagree with Spain are calling them names and being racist, yet you're doing something very simillar. You can disagree with what someone is doing, and not be part of the KKK

Nope sorry but you are wrong yet again [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I claimed that those who believe the ultra-right preachings and dissagree with the Spanish (moderate) line are being hypocrites not that I took one line against another.

[ 04-19-2004: Message edited Bill bobidy ]

ros2nz · 04-19-2004, 10:52 AM

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Just how many times have you read of a Muslim being beaten up after 9/11.?

While I agree with everything you've said so far, I don't think this has happened as much as it would've , had 9/11 happened in another country. Physical assault, I mean. But apart from that, Muslim bashing is quite prominent, here and rest of the US, no doubt.

But then again, I don't live in the US, so I wouldn't know the extremes this anti-Muslim hate has gone to.

Bill bobidy · 04-19-2004, 11:02 AM

ok, fair enough, I live in the UK and really don't know what it's like for muslims out there but living in a similar culture I have seen an upsurge in troubles for muslims since 9/11.

Right after was pretty bad but there just isn't the effort being put in to stop it happening.

The media play a critical role here and have quite frankly been irrisponsible. Nothing new there of course, they're pretty much a law unto themselves and lets be honest, Bush doesn't control the world, Rupert Murdoch does.

he quite literally boasts abouit it in the major tabloid he owns and edits in the UK.

Perhaps someone ought to do the world a favour and put a handgrenade in his coco pops.

Enigma, I.C. · 04-19-2004, 09:28 PM

Honduras is pulling its troops out of Iraq http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...aq_honduras_dc

I guess FOX News will now have to gear up Honduras jokes?

*Lauren · 04-19-2004, 10:25 PM

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Dipping under the point of the US financing terrorists such as the IRA and giving them guns to murder civilians I'm going to say..

That wasn't the GOVERNMENT! That was individuals who donated to them. Its not even comparable!

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You realise that even though teh IRA are on the two teer list of terrorists in the US there are no sanctions imposed on them?

First of all, I have to ask again, that you write proper English. Everyone makes spelling mistakes, but there are some words I don't know what they are.

Please tell me how they can place sanctions on the IRA? The IRA is not a government, it is not a country. It is a rogue agency that used to (they don't anymore) do bombing attacks. How is the US supposed to sanction them? They sanction COUNTRIES.

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Funny stuff that my Uncle was shot in the face by one such gun bought from the US, seems my Aunt can't even be contacted anymore, but seriously, he was after all a postal worker which makes him quite the threat.

I'm sorry about your uncle, but what the hell does that have to do with this discussion? I know people who get smashed on drugs brought from overseas, how is that the government's fault?

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Perhaps the US should stop supporting Israel who frequently show dissregard for any international treities.

First of all, they don't show a lack of regard for ALL international treaties.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing, and I don't think the USA should give them cart blanche to do whatever they want, but they are facing extreme circumstances. Its very easy to sit in your home and criticise them for reacting, when people are being blown up on the streets. I think the way they react is wrong, but you can't expect them to stand aside and do nothing.

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Anyway, sure my use of Nazi may be seen as wrong but it is defined as being govts in bed with scorporations or pretty much taking backhanders from business, Bush gets his campaign financed by big business right?

Nazi is defined as people being in bed with coperations? Do you know ANYTHING about the Nazis? Anything at all? I can't believe the utter stupidity in that statement.

Bill bobidy · 04-20-2004, 03:38 AM

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That wasn't the GOVERNMENT! That was individuals who donated to them. Its not even comparable!

Maybe, but the US seemed to turn a blind eye to Shin Fein fund raisers while people in my very own country were being murdered by a group which the US openly admits to being terrorist.

It wasn't Afghanistan that took war to America was it? I believe it was a terrorist organisation inside their borders.

One reason I remember hearing on the run up to war with Iraq was that terrorist cells operated there. Seems that Bush is quite happy to see any country which has terrorists in it as being a good target.

Doesn't really matter though that Sadams regime was pretty secular and he didn't approve of extremists.

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Nazi is defined as people being in bed with coperations? Do you know ANYTHING about the Nazis? Anything at all? I can't believe the utter stupidity in that statement.

Sorry, I meant Facist, the word Nazi is pretyy much "Nationalist" perhaps though it still applies as Mr Bush is such a fanatical "Nationalist".

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Please tell me how they can place sanctions on the IRA? The IRA is not a government, it is not a country. It is a rogue agency that used to (they don't anymore) do bombing attacks. How is the US supposed to sanction them? They sanction COUNTRIES.

Sorry but they do, in the top teer list the likes of the "Real IRA" are faced with the same restrictions as Al Quida.

They stop giving them guns and money and make sure that no-one in the US does, placing such restrictions or sanctions on any accounts or pretty much any financial investments is the way to go.

Sorry if my fast typing has not been like it has gone through a spell checker though it still did seem pretty simple to read.

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I'm sorry about your uncle, but what the hell does that have to do with this discussion? I know people who get smashed on drugs brought from overseas, how is that the government's fault?

It isn't, it was to highlight that we have a problem with a terrorist organisation and that the US has either turned a blind eye to them or helped them.

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First of all, they don't show a lack of regard for ALL international treaties.

Oh? Ok, so maybe not ALL of them but there is a fairly high amount, perhaps the US should stop giving them about a billion dollars in weaponry each year to help ease muslim fears that the US is actually supporting what they do.

The current govt in power in Israle is acting worse than most previous, the whole idea of putting up a wall to enclose all Palestinians, stealing their territory and massacring folks is just a tad extreme for my liking, but hey that's just whacky little me.

[ 04-20-2004: Message edited Bill bobidy ]

Anabela · 04-20-2004, 03:53 AM

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Originally posted by Enigma, I.C.:
<STRONG>Honduras is pulling its troops out of Iraq.
I guess FOX News will now have to gear up Honduras jokes?</STRONG>

[img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rotfl.gif[/img]

StellaSlight · 04-20-2004, 05:45 AM

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Originally posted by Enigma, I.C.:
<STRONG>
I guess FOX News will now have to gear up Honduras jokes?</STRONG>

Yeah, and after the Freedom fries, here comes the... wait a minute, is there anything Honduras related? Okay then let's rename the country on the maps : it's gonna be CON-dur-USA!

*Lauren · 04-20-2004, 09:14 AM

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Maybe, but the US seemed to turn a blind eye to Shin Fein fund raisers while people in my very own country were being murdered by a group which the US openly admits to being terrorist.

If they don't know who it is, how can they stop people? Its not something that would be openly advertised.

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It wasn't Afghanistan that took war to America was it? I believe it was a terrorist organisation inside their borders.

Exactly. They were INSIDE their borders, and the Taliban refused to give them up. They went in to get Al Quedea and as a consequence the Taliban fell.

I didn't agree with Afghinstan at the time, but I can admit that they had valid reasons for going there. I was also overjoyed that the Taliban were overthrown.

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Seems that Bush is quite happy to see any country which has terrorists in it as being a good target.

So what does this have to do with the IRA, which has done no terrorist bombings while Bush has been in office?

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Doesn't really matter though that Sadams regime was pretty secular and he didn't approve of extremists.

While I didn't agree with Iraq, I haven't shed any tears over Saddam being overthrown.

And because someone is secular and dosen't approve of extremists, its OK? Never mind the fact that he was killing people every day?

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Sorry, I meant Facist,

You should use the correct words. Some words are not synonims (sp?) and should not be used as such.

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the word Nazi is pretyy much "Nationalist"

[b]NO ITS NOT!{/b] Would you PLEASE stop talking about things you don't know anything about? You clearly have no knowledge on any of this, so either LEARN or stay out of the conversation!

Do you know what Nazi stands for? The German name is the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. This is the German abreviation NSDAP. The English translation is National SOCIALST German Workers Party. (I've highlighted the letters in the German name which is where we've got Nazi from)

That's right, the Nazis were ALSO a socialist party. While they went away from that after 1934, when the Night of the Long Knives happened, and Hitler killed all the members of that wing of the party, including former right hand mand Ernst Rohm.

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Sorry but they do, in the top teer list the likes of the "Real IRA" are faced with the same restrictions as Al Quida.

Then aren't the US placing restrictions on the IRA?

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They stop giving them guns and money and make sure that no-one in the US does, placing such restrictions or sanctions on any accounts or pretty much any financial investments is the way to go.

Full agreement. US citizens giving money to the IRA is awful, and they should have been punished.

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It isn't, it was to highlight that we have a problem with a terrorist organisation and that the US has either turned a blind eye to them or helped them.\

Excuse my ignorance here, but I thought a lot of the problems in Northern Ireland were gone? At least the terrorist bombings and such. There are still the divisions, but people aren't killing each other on the street are they?

The US might have turned a blind eye, I don't know. Its hard to say. But the US government never helped the IRA. US citizens might have, but not the government. There is a difference.

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Oh? Ok, so maybe not ALL of them but there is a fairly high amount,

Name them.

Don't put down all, when you don't know. If you don't know, either find out, or stay OUT of the discussion.

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perhaps the US should stop giving them about a billion dollars in weaponry each year to help ease muslim fears that the US is actually supporting what they do.

I agree with that slightly. I don't think they should give Israel as much help as they do. Israel is doing awful things. However, to leave them to the wind would be awful. Cause I could guarantee that Israel would be marched on by a number of Arab countries, and that would be distarous.

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The current govt in power in Israle is acting worse than most previous, the whole idea of putting up a wall to enclose all Palestinians, stealing their territory and massacring folks is just a tad extreme for my liking, but hey that's just whacky little me.

When has anyone ever disagred with this? When have I ever disagred with this? I'm just questioning your facts, which by your own admission, are wrong.

You'll have no arguments from me on the current Isralie goverment. Sharon is a war criminal as far as I'm concerned (from Lebanon in 1983 at the very least)but governments change. Hopefully this one will soon.

perhaps though it still applies as Mr Bush is such a fanatical "Nationalist".

[ 04-20-2004: Message edited *Lauren ]

ros2nz · 04-20-2004, 09:39 AM

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So what does this have to do with the IRA, which has done no terrorist bombings while Bush has been in office?

You mean, like Iraq, right? No bombings, no WMDs, but now there's a Gulf War 2 going on. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Bill bobidy · 04-20-2004, 12:27 PM

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If they don't know who it is, how can they stop people? Its not something that would be openly advertised.

Oh? Hows about the rallies that are broadcast on the media? Sorry but the IRA and Shin Fein have been openly fund raising for years and it all helps disstabilise a country that's meant to be friends with them. Killing babies and so on...

Anyway, if it is so impossible to stop fundraising for terrorists then Al Quida should have no probs, despite the new laws in place that freeze all their assets and so on, course when it's murdering Americans it's pretty different from UK people.

The govt has intelligence on many suspected terorists and their finances. They could have acted to stop the IRA murdering people but chose not to.

Where the govt supporting Shin Fein? No I don't think so but to call anyone and everyone anti-american after 9/11 after allowing fund raisers for Shin Fein to happen you can see why I might see it as hypocritical.

Not even mentioning how the US govt tend to promise to sort out Israel before they receive some of thos rather large contributions from right wing anti-palestinian types.

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Exactly. They were INSIDE their borders, and the Taliban refused to give them up. They went in to get Al Quedea and as a consequence the Taliban fell.

I didn't agree with Afghinstan at the time, but I can admit that they had valid reasons for going there. I was also overjoyed that the Taliban were overthrown.

Thing that is being ignored here is culture.

In Afghanistan if a person asks for help then they have a history of getting it from the people they ask.

It's in a way one of the most civilised places on Earth in that even if an American or UK soldier killed someones father they still get to ask for help.

They decided not to give up on their principles, even though there was a fair bit of debate and lets not forget just why the Taliban got in power.

Not that things have turned out that rosey. Women still face the same strict ideaology and Opium production is up.

The media have all but fogotten about Afghanistan, bush forgot to send them even 1 percent of what he promised in reconstruction and Al quida is still operating.

Talk about success?

This certainly isn't one and will no doubt be a time bomb both politically and otherwise in the future.

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While I didn't agree with Iraq, I haven't shed any tears over Saddam being overthrown.

And because someone is secular and dosen't approve of extremists, its OK? Never mind the fact that he was killing people every day?

I really don't like Sadam I don't think anyone did. He was a murderous nut who is best out of power but I still dissagree with the way it was gone about.

I do think a lot of the military in doing it's job but the politicians who put Sadamn down yet carry on as best friends with the likes of Saudi Arabia are not on my xmas card list.

If we are to to the line with all leaders whop are like Sadamn then there's a few more on the list, Israel for starters.

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You should use the correct words. Some words are not synonims (sp?) and should not be used as such.

I appologise for that, yes you are right and the connotations brought from my misstake is unjustified.

I still think he is a dictator with extreme Nationalistic views though.

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That's right, the Nazis were ALSO a socialist party.

Yep, hence the name right.....

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Sorry but they do, in the top teer list the likes of the "Real IRA" are faced with the same restrictions as Al Quida.
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Then aren't the US placing restrictions on the IRA?

By naming and shaming? No not exactly, this news is hardly widespread and to take no action against terrorists while saying how we need to invade two countries makes some folks really wonder about just how much the current Admin cares about folks outside the US.

World Terrorism? Don't kid yourself, it's US terrorism dressed up to make other nations care.

Nother point though, do you realise the difference between the IRA and the Real IRA? Thgey are quite different in their fanaticism.

If I read your point wrong then sorry but I got the feeling that you felt that IRA = Real IRA. Which it just plain doesn't.

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Excuse my ignorance here, but I thought a lot of the problems in Northern Ireland were gone? At least the terrorist bombings and such. There are still the divisions, but people aren't killing each other on the street are they?

The US might have turned a blind eye, I don't know. Its hard to say. But the US government never helped the IRA. US citizens might have, but not the government. There is a difference.

Made a point up earlier that covers some of this point but just wanted to make a few additional comments.

If the US govt turned a blind eye to it's citizens financing terrorists even with the most advanced internal security service in the world then they are no different from the Taliban in what they did.

The UK govt tried to lobby the senate and president for a quarter of a centuary to stop it but they never listened till things happened on home soil.

Anyway, right now in Northern ireland there are certainly murders, all the prisoners from the 25 year struggle are out and have taken to dealing drugs or whatever.

Things out there are little different from where they were before, just that there;s no phone call with some group claiming they did the crime.

There's only no bombs going off in London or England now, things are in some ways pretty much worse than before.

So long as it isn;t a bomb in the news then folks just forget about it and with Iraq we got more focus.

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Name them.

Geneva convention is the top of the list for me. If they had followed it they would not be settling in Palestinian land as they are right now.

The number of illegal acts including ones against basic humaity commited by Israel are countless, if breaking the Geneva convention by stealing and keeping territory isn't enough then sure I can post more.

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I agree with that slightly. I don't think they should give Israel as much help as they do. Israel is doing awful things. However, to leave them to the wind would be awful. Cause I could guarantee that Israel would be marched on by a number of Arab countries, and that would be distarous.

I do see what your saying here and do agree that to stop giving Israel aid would be bad but they are a Nuclear state which makes any invasion futile.

Syria, Egypt and so on have already tried to invade Israel a while back, I can only imagine that feelings amongst the Nations off camera are far worse now.

They need to make more attempts to get the road map to peace working and be far more proportional with their responses.

The current govt are pretty much a nightmare who deal with any problem in far too much a heavy handed approach. They have no solution but are doing a heck of a job at aiding the recruiting for the likes of Hammas.

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When has anyone ever disagred with this? When have I ever disagred with this? I'm just questioning your facts, which by your own admission, are wrong.

Sorry, it's the way I post.

I do tend to quote people and after ending a response get into something else or another persons point.

NOt aiming it at you though I see why you'd be annoyed with me.

Sorry.

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perhaps though it still applies as Mr Bush is such a fanatical "Nationalist".

Anyone anming an act as the "patriot act" and making people out to be treasonous if they aren't with them is certainly a fanatical Nationalist.

*Lauren · 04-21-2004, 04:57 AM

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They decided not to give up on their principles,

The principals that forced women to wear things against their wills? That stopped women from having jobs, getting an education, and leaving the house without a male? THOSE principals?

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If we are to to the line with all leaders whop are like Sadamn then there's a few more on the list, Israel for starters.

ISRAEL IS NOT LIKE SADDAM! Until you can show me damn proof that Isralie's are stringing people up by piano wires and raping them for fun, then I'll continue to think you're ignorant.

Israel is a democrcy. Iraq under Saddam, was a dictatorship. How are they simillar?

Like it or not, but Palestinian's are blowing up Isralie's. That is why Israel is acting like it is. I don't agree with it, but there is justification. Iraqis were not trying to blow up each other.

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I still think he is a dictator with extreme Nationalistic views though.

A dictator? I guess I must be mishearing things about an election at the end of the year. Cause dictators don't allow elections.

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World Terrorism? Don't kid yourself, it's US terrorism dressed up to make other nations care.

US Terrorisim? I guess my friend that died at Bali would disagree with you if she could. Or the pepole who died in Madrid. Don't talk about things you don't know.

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If I read your point wrong then sorry but I got the feeling that you felt that IRA = Real IRA. Which it just plain doesn't.

Sorry, I didn't realise there was a difference. I need to read up a bit more, but can't till next week as I have to do uni assignments. Then I can be a bit more informed on it.

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The number of illegal acts including ones against basic humaity commited by Israel are countless, if breaking the Geneva convention by stealing and keeping territory isn't enough then sure I can post more.

I'm sure blowing up civillans is against the Geneva convention.

Name a treaty the Israleis have gone against, that the Palestinians have follows to the letter.

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The current govt are pretty much a nightmare who deal with any problem in far too much a heavy handed approach.

Complete agreement.

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Anyone anming an act as the "patriot act" and making people out to be treasonous if they aren't with them is certainly a fanatical Nationalist.

I'll agree with that. I just don't think he's a dictator, or a Nazi.