S.A.S.H.A.

Here's a story I've been following for some time.

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Saudi court ups punishment for gang-rape victim

Story Highlights
Woman, 19, gets six months prison, 200 lashes for meeting with unrelated man
Group of seven raped her and the man, from whom she was retrieving photos
After lawyer protests light sentences, rapists' sentences increased
Victim's punishment doubled for talking to the media

Saudi lawyer in rape victim plea

Story Highlights
Woman sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in jail under Islamic law
Judge more than doubled 19-year-old's sentence for speaking to the media
Woman's lawyer loses law license for speaking to Saudi-controlled media
Human rights group: Lawyer faces three-year suspension and disbarment

Gang-Rape Victim Vows to Fight On

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Mmm, hmm...

Sasha

fetch

I wanted to post this. This is just...

4N6 DNA

Exactly, there are no words for something like this. I don't even know where to begin

elisheva

So horrifying. Unfortunately it's not one isolated case.

Jen Jaree

There is seriously something wrong with judical system there. The rapist either never gets punished or just gets a slap on the wrist and the victim not only goes to jail but she also has to live with this for the rest of her life.

sunnykerr

It's disgraceful to the human race. The scary thing is that these women get off lucky, in a way. In a horrible way. But in the way that this is Saudi Arabia, they are getting off easy. Or maybe it's a sign of changing times.

Amnesty International, a while back, reported on the public beheadings that occur weekly in Saudi Arabia.

Amnesty International: Saudi Arabia campaign website

Note how you can be beheaded for "sexual offences."

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Saudi executioner tells all

And this executioner makes specific mention of having executed women.

Death in the market, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia

This woman was shot by her father (as a form of execution) for marrying the man she loved and not the man her father chose for her.

Drekkan

So a question. Whenever I mention this some knee-jerk liberal always gets uppity. Can we finally admit that there are right and wrong cultures on some things? That there are civilized and barbaric ones? Can we finally say, "You know, these guys... they're just wrong"...

Or is that not kumbaya, let's all hug each other hippy enough?

elisheva

This practice is certainly wrong. I think maybe the people you're talking to could be just being careful not to suggest that ALL people of a specific culture agree with this practice etc. Unless they're just far-out moral relativists and thin there are no moral absolutes, in which case I can't agree with them.

sunnykerr

That would pretty much be my response as well. Countries that have oppressive government certainly have condemnable political and human-rights issues. But to declare the whole culture "wrong" as a result isn't just an insult to people of that culture who completely disagree with what these autocrats are doing, it's also insulting to the humanity of "our side."

We know that dictators don't speak for the people they oppress.

JohannafromIHJ

At the present, all cultures are barbaric. I can't think of a single country or group of people that I can say always acts in a humane, respectful way towards its citizens.

Those people are dead wrong, but that does not automatically make the cultures that disagree with them pristine. I think this "us and them" thinking does a lot more harm than good, it keeps people from seeing what's going on in their own backyard, so to speak. I would rather say that any culture that treats any group of people as lesser beings is "wrong", and that includes the one I live in.

ceilirose

I guess I'm a knee jerk liberal (whatever the heck that means) because I can't condemn a whole country/race for this act. That's too narrow minded IMO. Although Sauda Arabia's rulers are pretty much saying the sentence is staus quo for this type of act.

But where is America (and Great Britain too) as a country? As late as this morning neither leader had spoken out against this sentence in an official manner. What does that make us? Silent partners in this atrocity? I think not - broad generalizations don't help anything.

Let's just hope that the growing international pressure can make some sense out this madness.

elisheva

International pressure but also strong support programs for people fleeing violence like this in Western countries (especially the UK and the Netherlands). Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book The Caged Virgin has some really shocking stuff about this kind of thing in family contexts (and also some good proposals for prevention/help).

sunnykerr

Or, you know, we could just reconsider our relationship with countries who do things like these. But maybe I'm being too naive. The Sauds have all that oil and all that money. And the best of friends are the ones who can finance our projects, right?

Drekkan

True, even our own culture is not perfect. I wouldn't argue that. It's about comparatives. To those that say there are no "better or worse" cultures I have two responses.

First - these aren't just extreme dictators oppressing a large number of people. These are moderate dictators barely keeping seething masses of hardliners in check. The reason the House of Saud so frequently can't do anything isn't because they don't want to - but rather that they can't. They attempt to check the power of the extremists within their nation as much as they can (in order to win points with western governments), but they have to be careful. Push too far and you're liable to bring the thing toppling down and bring some real wingnuts into power.

But hey, that's all academic let's play a game:

It's a really simple game. It will help you determine whether or not you think your culture is better then their's. Assume that your family keeps the same relative level of income (take poverty out of the equation. Now, which culture would you prefer to live in - their's or your's? If you answered, "your's" then congratulations, you've picked your own culture as "better" and their's as "worse". You can try and sugarcoat it all you like, but unless you'd be equally willing to live in their culture then your's is, relatively, better.

I for one know which culture I would rather live in. Freedom to assemble/protest? Yeah, I like that. Freedom to have my sister, mother, girlfriend drive a car? Yeah, that sounds good. Freedom to carry a bible without it being a crime with severe punishments? Yeah. Equally able to carry another holy book? Oh yeah, that could come in handy given all my Jewish friends. Freedom to drink alcohol? Hey, I like to party. A society that has lots of social mobility? Sounds better then a near caste system.

Now furthermore, don't get me wrong. There are places cultures can be improved. I'm all for taking good ideas (such as the legalization of marijuana and prostitution) from some cultures (like the Dutch in those examples) and molding them into our own. As I said, none are perfect. But some are definitely 'better' and others are definitely 'worse'.

Looks like I know where I stand. How 'bout you?

ETA: I should footnote that the question should be amended to add that it assumes you have perfect information about the opposing culture

sum1

You know, Jews aren't even allowed into Saudi Arabia.