[Lovesbitch]

Please be respectful to each other, this is a hot topic which many people are serious about.

For great background information on the religious aspect check out this site

It gives both sides of the religious debate (those who say the Bible claims it's wrong and also the views of those that believe in the Bible but say that it doesn't claim that homosexuality is a sin).

It is also a great place to get some true research on how the ex-gay fade really doesn't work and how the numbers/advertisements are basically lies.

If anyone else has any links they would like added to the first page then just tell me and I'll add them.

[Emzmit]

Thanks for starting the new thread. I was hoping this debate could continue.

[Lovesbitch]

Originally posted by Emzmit Thanks for starting the new thread. I was hoping this debate could continue.

Yep, it was just to good to let die.

And I'm addicted to it, i love debating. Tis fun.

[Pavlov's Belle]

I'm going to try and join in on the debate. No matter how stupid and repetive I sound. Where is the other side?

[Lovesbitch]

Don't know, they haven't posted here yet.

Maybe they don't know this thread exist yet

[Ambular]

Originally posted by Pavlov's Belle I'm going to try and join in on the debate. No matter how stupid and repetive I sound. Where is the other side?

Who, mine? I'm not sure which you're on.

Don't worry about redundancy - everyone here ends up repeating themselves sixty times

[Lovesbitch]

Originally posted by Ambular Who, mine? I'm not sure which you're on. Don't worry about redundancy - everyone here ends up repeating themselves sixty times

It is the way of the thread

You had some links from the first thread, would you like me to add them to the first post (if you still have them?)

[Ambular]

Originally posted by Lovesbitch Maybe they don't know this thread exist yet

I finally found it Eh, I'm slow.

Anyway I'll start off with the last post, I suppose.

Originally posted by haylz80 Moral convictions?

Yes, moral convictions that they have when they are condoning something that they know God speaks out (rather loudly) against. It isn't about wanting to deprive someone of their rights, it's about doing everything in their power to maintain the laws of God. Some people have a really hard time coming to terms with their faith because they know they have too often let slide what is wrongfully portrayed as acceptable. I honestly wouldn't expect you understand what that feels like, though. And that isn't supposed to be a put-down or an insult to you at all. It just means that if you aren't in the same place in your faith that I am (whether it's a better or worse place is irrelevant) then you most likely would not know what it feels like to be compromising what society says is OK and what God says is OK. I am saying this not because I assume you have no religious beliefs, but only that it seems you don't live by the Bible in strict terms.

God's word is not universal, not everyone believes in it, so you can't base a law on something only a certain percentage of people believe in.

Actually it is universal, because it applies to all human race. Just because all of our human race does not accept what it says as the truth does not mean that the Bible does not pertain to them. The Bible wasn't written just for Christians; It was meant for everyone.

*bangs head against wall*

Considering that you probably won't ever agree with me, you probably shouldn't continue doing that every time we meet a dead end. You'll give yourself a concussion

[Ambular]

Originally posted by Lovesbitch You had some links from the first thread, would you like me to add them to the first post (if you still have them?)

Sure - thanks for saving me the trouble You're not gonna rewrite them, are you? - just kiddin'.

[Lovesbitch]

Originally posted by Ambular Actually it is universal, because it applies to all human race. Just because all of our human race does not accept what it says as the truth does not mean that the Bible does not pertain to them. The Bible wasn't written just for Christians; It was meant for everyone.

See, that arguement could be used for any other religion. Wiccans believe that the Goddess and God are not just for them but for everyone. So therefore in there eyes, the teaching of these Gods are universal.

The universal factor in religion is not absolute, it is specific to the certain beliefs of the a certain person.

[Pavlov's Belle]

Originally posted by Ambular Who, mine? I'm not sure which you're on. Don't worry about redundancy - everyone here ends up repeating themselves sixty times

Yes, yours And I've noticed that trend

I was just wondering, actually. But what if you didn't actually agree with what was written in the bible? Would you just make yourself believe it because that's what God may have believed? I have never read the bible so I honestly have no clue what the views are on homosexuality. But what is your opinion? Not what is written in the bible or what anyone else has said but what you believe yourself?

[Lovesbitch]

Originally posted by Pavlov's Belle Yes, yours And I've noticed that trend I was just wondering, actually. But what if you didn't actually agree with what was written in the bible? Would you just make yourself believe it because that's what God may have believed? I have never read the bible so I honestly have no clue what the views are on homosexuality. But what is your opinion? Not what is written in the bible or what anyone else has said but what you believe yourself?

Very good arguement.

Personally, I follow what I believe is right in my heart. I believe that God gave me morals and I stand by those. And those morals tell me that love is never wrong.

[Pavlov's Belle]

Me too. I believe that we are ulitmately responisble for the choices we make and the thoughts that go through our head everyday.

And the morals we have now are the product of growing up, how we view society and how the world treated us, I guess. I'm more philisophical so I agree with people like John Locke and uh ... Ivan Pavlov. And the fact that we are discriminating against people who are completely equal except for a 'different lifestyle' is completely wrong. Purposely causing people grief and pain is wrong. They don't chose to be gay so why do we chose to discriminate against them and hurt them?

[Ambular]

Originally posted by Pavlov's Belle But what if you didn't actually agree with what was written in the bible? Would you just make yourself believe it because that's what God may have believed?

Well, it depends. Sometimes two different things can happen.

First, usually when I stumble upon something in the Bible that I think it completely stupid (and I will be honest about that), it's typically because I don't fully understand what it is saying, or what it means, or how it is meant to be interpreted (especially scripture that is written metaphorically). So I ask questions about it. I'll ask my pastor, or my mother (who seems to have read the entire Bible front and back, as she can answer ANY question in a split second ) or if I can't get any answers that satisfy me from them, I'll pray about it. I pray that it will make sense to me and that I will be able to understand it. And most of the time I do! And then I think, "Oh, that's what it's trying to say. OK, I can see that."

The other times - which is rarer - I just can't honestly deny not understanding why some things are said to be wrong. I'll be honest about that. Sometimes I just have a real problem with God disapproving of things - especially the Old laws of the New Testament, even if that changed later on. But I also know that even if I can't see past the ideals that I have kept in mind because of society's impressions on me, I know that God says what he says for a reason. It isn't to oppress us or make us miserable, it's to make us want to be better people and to do what's righteous. So I feel that, while I do think it's important to question everything and not just take it because it's there, I do know that I would not be doing right by God by pushing it aside and saying, "Well, I just don't think I'll deal with that part." I have before, and I've felt nothing but guilt for it later. So I just pray that God will help me find understanding in it, and then I will be strong enough to find a good cause in it because I trust that God is who he says he is.

Does that make sense, or did I lose you? I rattle a lot.

But what is your opinion? Not what is written in the bible or what anyone else has said but what you believe yourself?

What is my personal, non-religiously influenced opinion? If there was no God, no Bible, no sin, then I wouldn't really have to find fault in anything (except murder, and the like, obviously), including homosexuality. I do feel that homosexuality is unnatural (which has already been discussed, the whole "choice" issue, which I really don't think has anything left to add), but I also don't care. It doesn't disgust me that homosexuals pursue these relationships. I mean, I feel a little uncomfortable seeing it, if you want my brutally honest opinion, but that's because of the way I was sheltered growing up, probably. I didn't know any gay people and my mom did not let me watch shows like Will & Grace. I only knew it was "wrong." I like to think I'm a little more accepting of people than her, so I try not to get my personal feelings get in the way of people wanting to be happy. If suddenly God revealed to us that it wasn't a sin, then I could find no fault in it.

[Lovesbitch]

Originally posted by Ambular What is my personal, non-religiously influenced opinion? If there was no God, no Bible, no sin, then I wouldn't really have to find fault in anything (except murder, and the like, obviously), including homosexuality. I do feel that homosexuality is unnatural (which has already been discussed, the whole "choice" issue, which I really don't think has anything left to add), but I also don't care. It doesn't disgust me that homosexuals pursue these relationships. I mean, I feel a little uncomfortable seeing it, if you want my brutally honest opinion, but that's because of the way I was sheltered growing up, probably. I didn't know any gay people and my mom did not let me watch shows like Will & Grace. I only knew it was "wrong." I like to think I'm a little more accepting of people than her, so I try not to get my personal feelings get in the way of people wanting to be happy. If suddenly God revealed to us that it wasn't a sin, then I could find no fault in it.

Even if there was no Bible there would still be morals.

Atheist have morals, they are just not founded in religious beliefs. I'm sure that they don't believe that killing someone is right.

Morals are what you believe are right and what you believe is wrong.

You say you do not do something because God disapproves of it, that's like saying I won't do something because my parents think it's wrong and I want to respect them and not get in trouble.

That doesn't necessarily make my actions my personal beliefs, it means I'm not acting on them in fear of punishment. Either being grounded by parents or going to hell.

Your personal morals are something within you that you believe and do for no other reason than because you know in your heart that it's true. Now, can these beliefs go hand and hand in religion. Of course!

But that doesn't mean that a person who isn't religious can't be moral and it doesn't mean that a religious person can't be unmoral and jsut not act on their impulses.

*edited to point out that this really isn't so much a reply to your post but a train of thought i got after reading your post*