Katis

Continue discussion here.

Coren

Ah, so even though they believe in something other than your God, and likely DONT believe in your God, that's AOK. But if they're gay..well hot damn, CANT LIVE WITH EM! BTW, as someone mentioned, athiests don't necessarily beieve in god, and of course there's the agnostics..

Belief in a higher power isn't by necessity belief in your higher power.

dyxlecis gril

small humans with ugly hearts deserve what they are bound to get.

i can't read this thread anymore, it upsets me too much. so uh..bye.

[ 04-30-2004: Message edited dyxlecis gril ]

the laziest little sidekick

First of all, a funny look at the pick-and-choose attitude towards the Bible (Leviticus in particular) can be found here.

Now onto the debate!

So if I decide my brother is the savior and start a religion where everyone refers to the savior as Kevin, does that make me a believer? Can you clarify for me what you mean by "believer?" I assumed everyone would understand it as someone who follows the Christian faith, but apparently Jews and Muslims are believers too. Is it just anyone who believes in God, even if they don't follow the teachings of Christianity?

I was raised Catholic but then decided to go my own way, and I ditched organized religion altogether. The way I see it, God shouldn't and wouldn't care whether or not I ate shellfish or whether or not I worship him. I do what I think is right. If there is a heaven and a final judgement, I'd rather be able to stand there and say that I may not have showered God with attention or followed everything said in the Bible, but I did do what I thought was right and that I have been the best person I could be. I'd much rather be able to say that than to stand there and know that I oppressed people because of some twisted notion that my religion made me part of some moral elite. Most Christians will tell (and have told) me that I'll go to hell if I don't worship God in the way that He wants to be worshipped.

BTW: In the Muslim faith, Muhammad isn't a savior. He, like Jesus, is a prophet.

She didn't mean that homosexuals aren't allowed the rights to practice Christianity. The original post said "you talk like your religion and your beliefs are the most important thing in the world, and that you are the only people who deserve the rights to practice them," meaning that everyone deserves to practice their own relgion and their own beliefs. You are only allowing for what suits you and your beliefs best without taking into consideration the vast majority of Americans who do not think and believe exactly what you believe.

No. It's not suppressing Christians in any way, because no church or religion will be FORCED to allow same sex marriages. You will not suffer in anyway if the gay couple down the street decides to get married. As for being "forced" to live in a society that goes against your religion: Nobody's making you stay in the United States. (Before someone interprets that as an "If you don't like it, leave" comment, it's not. I'm simply disagreeing with the use of the word "force," because Christians are not being forcibly kept in the country. If they disagree with gay marriage to the point that leaving the country is what they want, they would be able to do it.)

So maybe you will have to put up with something that isn't a part of your religion. Have you ever thought about what it's like to be a non-Christian living in America? What it's like to be Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu on Christmas? All of this oppression of Christians that people keep mentioning - aren't you essentially doing the same thing if you don't want to encounter anything that doesn't agree with your religion?

There are extreme cases where people take religious diversity and the separation of church and state too seriously and promote all religions BUT Christianity, and I think that nearly everyone on this thread can agree that it shouldn't ever come to the exclusion of Christianity from public displays of religion. Neither is it right to preserve the centuries-old ties between American customs and Christianity while excluding or ignoring other belief systems. But the fact remains that there is a middle ground. An exmaple: The Pledge of Allegiance. You can't possibly speak for everyone in the country and say that nobody's offended by it, but what's the problem with removing "under God" from the official version while still allowing people to say it if they want to?

Again, allowing gay marriage is in no way oppressing Christians. It's not restricting the religion in any way, it just happens to piss off some of the more self-righteous who can't accept anything outside of their religion.

[ 04-30-2004: Message edited the laziest little sidekick ]

JediBlastoise

i think this pic says it all..

migamoo

I agree, that statement does need some clarification. I didn't quite understand it myself.

I totally agree with you. I worship God in my own why, I don't see the point of organized religion. Yes, I do go to church, but that's mostly because I have to. There are many other ways to worship him than what someone says is the "right way". Personally, I believe that as long as someone believes in God, and that Jesus is the messiah, than that person will go to Heaven. No one is going to go to Hell just because they didn't worship God the way he wanted them too. Whoever said that really needs to get their priorities straight when it comes to their faith because obviously if they are too worried about how they worship, they aren't focusing on the other, more important aspects of Christianity.

In my schools, you were never forced to even say it, so if you didn't want to, you didn't have to. I know I didn't say it.

Ashley

pacifierrocks

I had to say it in my school, but up until high school i went to school on a military base. in high school we weren't forced, but a lot of people stood up for it because it was over the PA system. I think a lot of people stood up because everyone else was. in the beginning i felt uncomfortable staying seated when everyone else stood, but i got over it. too tired and too lazy.

Ok, i have a question for the Christians on this board. If someone doesn't believe in God, but lives a pretty good life, morally and all. Do you think that they would still go to hell just because they didn't believe?

migamoo

From Christianity you learn that the way to get to Heaven is if you truely believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross to take away your sins. You truely want forgiveness from the sin in your life and want to do God's work.
Now, I believe this, but I also believe not everyone is going to be a Christian (obviously). I don't really know if one can get to Heaven on their own merit, and I'm not going to tell someone they are going to go to Hell just because they aren't a Christian. It's not right and it's very rude because I know I wouldn't want to hear someone tell me that.
Does that help?

Ashley

the laziest little sidekick

I was always taught what Fieryangel said in the post above this - that the only way to heaven is to accept God and Jesus and to follow the word of the Bible. I don't believe that. I think that if God truly loved us all and if He had one specific set of rules that had to be followed to get into heaven, He'd be a little more clear about it. Religious people can tell me whatever they want about faith, I refuse to believe in a God who created humans with the ability to doubt, who made proclamations that were sometimes vague and sometimes contradictory but almost always confusing, who has spoken directly to only a relative handful of people, yet condemns anyone who either hasn't been able to piece together the right religion or who doesn't believe in Him at all. If He really wanted all of us to worship Him in a specific way, He could make it happen instead of leaving everyone to scurry around to make sense of things for themselves.

pacifierrocks

Fieryangel I really like the way you answered my question. it stated your opinion, but in a very non-judgmental way. [img]smilies/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

I was just wondering because this thread seems to have turned into a religious debate thread instead of gay marriage. so i thought this would be the a good place to ask. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ 05-02-2004: Message edited pacifierrocks ]

migamoo

I agree, but I also know that no matter what you may be discussing, religion is going to present it self at some point. I just hope the thread doesn't die because it's a good discussion.

LeX_11

I'm sorry, wo non christians are non believers?

be•lieve ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lv)
v. intr.
To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
To have faith, confidence, or trust
To have confidence in the truth or value of something:

I don't see a specific religion here mentioned. I myself wasn't brought up among any form of religion although i guess my parents are Buddhist since i do go to the temple occasionally.

I have nothing against gay marriages; I find it quite powerful to have two people love one another so much to put up with so much crap, to be regarded as second class citizens. Few of my friends are gay and i can't imagine how people can think that they are sick before they even know who they are. Being gay doesn't define them of who they are; it's just a sexual orientation. Yes marriage in a dictionary mentions that “between a man and a woman” but some things need updating, like how women weren’t allow to vote.

This is more like a rant about the obvious. I just don't like it when people think that I am morally corrupt just cause i don't believe in the same thing as them, or that one believe is higher than others. Ultimately if i can go to bed at night and sleep well because i know i can live with the consequences of my action and that I am fair to my morals and values, then how bad can it be?
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

indium

just wondering, it seems for the most part that the 'i don't support gay marriage 'caus eof my religion' posters are from the christian tradition. is there anybody from any of the other major world religions?

Elegantly Wasted

By definition an atheist doesn't believe in God at all [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

JediBlastoise - Love the poster [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Monroe

The bible did not arrive by fax from Heaven

As long as there is love and security for a child, that's all that matters. And it sounds simple and untainted - but it's real. That's all that matters when it comes down to it.