News & Politics - Same Sex Marriage Continued - Page 7

Coren · 04-22-2004, 04:41 PM

Im here cuz of a link in a friend's LJ, so forgive me if I'm not up to speed on the whole debate (I understand it's been in other threads as well?).

First off, has anyone provided legitimate reasons outside of their religion to not allow same sex marraige?

Secondly, why does the Christian faith (which is the one I see touted the most in such debates) get precedence over other religions? Why is it Christian beliefs are somehow better than beliefs that are alright with homosexual marraige?

Thirdly, since Christianity is the main religion used in opposition to homosexual marraige, could someone please outline to me in the bible (including chapter and passage) where it says that homosexuality is wrong?

Fourth, since when did secular marraige become the province of churches? I don't think anyone begrudges you the right to not recognize a homosexual marraige in your church. That's your faith, by all means feel free to practice it. But when a judge is issuing a marraige license, entirely seperate from a church, why does church get a say?

pacifierrocks · 04-22-2004, 05:01 PM

ok, this is about the article. i can't believe that that can even happen. first off, how will the doctor know that his or her patient is Gay? do they have to fill out a form? Sex, age, race, and sexual preference?

bugs8476 · 04-22-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timeo:


I would, but frankly, I'm not a big fan of embarassing people, and even without my help, you're doing a damn well good job of doing it to yourself.

On the other hand, to make this post less off-topic, I'm going to reiterate that call for arguments made against homosexual marriage that are not based on religion. We could sit here until kingdom come, but without actual logical arguments made against it, then I don't see the point of continuing these discussions...

[ 04-20-2004: Message edited Timeo ]

Well if you think so...but by stating in what i belief in, and expressing are agruments is not embrassing my self... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

It don't have to to continue the argument if you don't want too, but since you are for Gay Marriages...of course your gone to think that there is no logic in are arguments.

JULIE.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

GrhmLz · 04-22-2004, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Enigma, I.C.:
Here's an example of why church and state should be separate.

But this was my point. The Church is separate from the State. The Church is an institution of its own but it did not pass these laws. The legislature of Michigan did and, like I said, this is an example of where morals and value systems of people play a big role in how the laws come to be. It's irrational to tell someone that "you can have religous ideals just don't express them while you serve in government." Those ideals become a part of who a person is. It would be like telling them to develop a split personality.

However, I do feel bad that homosexuals are being denied medical treatment and I don't see any religious/spiritual reasoning behind that. Personally, if I were a doctor I wouldn't deny anyone medical treatment just because I believe homosexuality is wrong. But I sincerely feel there is a difference between this issue and the issue surrounding marriage and; therefore, I can not support homosexual marriage because that is against God. It's says it in the bible and I believe it. Homosexual marriage would serve as another example to breaking down the family structure that God created just like divorce does. If homosexual marriage is allowed, that is forcing this new structure on society (not that it's not already happening).

Coren · 04-22-2004, 05:33 PM

If allowing gay marraige is forcing a structure on society, isn't disallowing it, allowing hetero marraige, and allowing divorce ALSO forcing a structure on society? There isn't anything wrong with structure. It's more a matter of you not liking the proposed one as opposed to others not liking the current one.

But marraige isn't a solely religious institution, correct? So why should religion play a factor, especially when this is a country of religious freedoms?

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited Coren ]

bugs8476 · 04-22-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted By Fieryangel:

I have to agree with that lauren said, it is a spiritual fact to you. Not everyone believes in the bible and god, ect, so to them its not any kind of fact. It's just an opinion for them.

You guys have made a point, but you problaly knew i was gone to disagree with you. Not everyone has to believe in the bible or even god, but even though they think its not, and you may not think it is either, in reality, I belief strongly that it is a Sprirtual Fact.

Quote:

Origianlly Posted by Fieryangel:

[b] What makes you think that homosexuality is going to be taugh in the school setting? Is it now? As i said before, when i was in schoo., I graduted last year, we never even touched the subject.[/B}

It may not be taught know, because i graduated last year too, but i talking in future reference.
Well, they talk about sex in a health class, so if your talking in general, the subject will pop eventually.

Respond....If you feel like it....Peace.

JULIE...... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

nicotine*blow · 04-22-2004, 05:40 PM

I dont think this needs to be seen a same sex marriage just the union of two human beings in love. Why is it fair for straight ppl to have more rights as a couple than gay ppl. The breakdown of society *give me a break* isn it supposed the U.S to be a land of diversity and freedom i mean if its not affecting you why do you even bother arguing with it [img]smilies/hotpinkie.gif[/img] [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

GrhmLz · 04-22-2004, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jess519:
Am I making any sense at all? I feel like I'm not. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] No, You're argument is making sense to me. I may not agree with all of it but I understand what you are saying.

I guess that we are going to just have to respectfully disagree on this one. You are arguing that the bible is up for interpretation; therefore, there is no right or wrong. I am arguing that the bible is based on faith, which leaves no room for doubt. Apparantly, you hold the view that one may still have faith and doubt at the same time. I don't know how accurate this viewpoint is because I did look the definition of "faith" up in Webster's dictionary just to find out for myself if you could have been right about your interpretation of "faith" but this is what it said:

Webster's Dictionary:

faith: 1. unquestioning belief; specifically in God, religion, etc. 2. a particular religion 3. complete trust or confidence 4. loyality; sincerity; honesty

I happen to agree, wholeheartedly, with this definition of faith. There can be no doubt, otherwise there is no faith there. And if I constantly doubted what was and was not true within the bible, I would have to idea what God's laws are. Then I would be left picking and choosing the laws for myself, which I can not do because I am not God.

However, I do understand and agree with what you are saying in regards to God "showing" each of us an answer in a different way. But, I still hold to the notion that there is still a right and wrong whether we choose to accept it or not. And while there are many paths that God can show each of us, those paths still lead to the right way and not the wrong way.

In conclusion, I just want to comment that I respect the way you debate. You did a good job sticking to the contents of my post to present your arguments even if I don't agree with all of them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Peace.

**In Fair Verona** · 04-22-2004, 06:36 PM

ITA agree with you, Coren.

For my two cents, I think that gay marriages should be allowed. I find it hard to see how it cannot be allowed in the country of America, the country that preaches about being a melting pot, diversity, freedom of choice. Denying people that right, that choice which supposedly makes us such a great country to a certain demographic is like discrimination.

It shocks me that maybe we haven't learned anything at all in the history of our country. Between slavery, and racial discrimination and Martin Luther King, we really haven't changed. At least, we aren't showing that we have if we're still doing things like this.

I am perfectly fine w/ Christianity not liking homosexuality. I'm not Christian, so it really doesn't bother me, and it doesn't bother me if people who are don't like homosexuality either. That's their belief. But that belief is NOT the country's belief, and considering that if you are a devout christian, homosexuality shouldn't even concern you. Denying them marriages isn't going to stop people from being homosexual. All they want is a piece of paper that binds them to their loved ones, officially. They want their love to be recognized. But with or without that piece of paper, homosexuals will still continue to love each other.

bugs8476 · 04-22-2004, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

Yes, poor Christian. 'Cause it's okay to be offensive and say hurtful things if you hide behind religion, right? Funny though how it never works the other way around. You state your heartfelt opinion and it's okay, because God is guiding you - I state mine and i need to open my heart to god, as if I'm not already spiritual and guided by the divine.

I don't feel that were poor christians at all, but simpily feeling the desire to be who we are and preach what we beleive in. Be offensive, No. Saying hurtfu things, NO. Hiding behind riligion, well, NO. She this is how you put it, becsuse basically you don't agree with our point of view. Yes, we state our heartfelt opinion, and it is okay, just like your opinion is ok too, not everyone agrees. God does guide us in our lives, but only if we want it. And in our lives we do want it, can't hate us for that.
That's good to open your heart to god, aleast he'll be happy to hear from somone who is so sprirtual and guided by the divine, as you are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

Thank you for that enlightening answer to my request.

And it's "beam me up".

I was joking around with Grhmlz when i said that, not anwsering anybodies question

I know it was "Beam". Just a misspelled word thats all. Sorry about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

1) A majority of homosexuals come from heterosexual homes. Many are disowned.

Many homosexuals may come from heterosexual homes.....Just because this doesn't mean they weren't tauhgt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

2) I don't know about you, but i rarely stumbled onto homosexuals having sex. Your argument makes no sense. Who sees gay sex and becomes a homosexual because of it? I though you were supposed to be educated? Or is the reason you're still in college at 25 that they keep holding yu back?

I never said you had to stumble arcoss to see homosexuals having sex. Learning to be gay, expriencing the act, being taught by someone who already is, im telling you you sure are not born with it. Just because you haven't, doesn't meant someone else is.

By the way I am educated, and Your refering to the wrong person, Grhmlz is 25, i never stated my age. At least when your posting somones quote, please know who your talking too.

Quote:

Originally by JohannafromIHJ:

3) And then decided "Oh my God, this is so much better that heterosexual sex. I have to do this for the rest of my life! Maybe I'll get lucky and have some anti-homosexuals make my life hell, as well!"

Maybe. Now that you mention that i do have a friend that happened too..I was in a italian class...She was totally straight....she wrote me note and told me that she was gay....Now she dates girls only....She liked men at first...Now she likes women....Even though i don't approve of the act, i don't hold anything agaist her. We ant-homosexuals are not making homosexuals life like hell, we just disagree of homosexuality, well at least i do. Now my friend wans't born being homosexual, now was she, so explain to me in her case Why Not?

Quote:

Orginally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

Arguing that homosexuality is not something you're born with is incredibly ridiculous. It might have worked ten, twenty years ago, but not now. Homosexuals are born that way, as evidendced by medical science and their own life stories. Look at hermaphrodites.

I feel that arguing that homosexuals are not born like this, is not incredibly ridiculos Who cares about, ten/twenty years ago, where talking about today, and the argument will work. Who cares about medical science, this doesn't prove anything. Science is just out there because people want an explantion for everything, but somethings you can't explain, but i do know that you are not born being gay. For hermaphrodites, its sad and medical conditon, but for normal and healthy men/woman, I feel there is no excuse for the act of being gay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

Again, show me where it's stated, because I've already gone through every place where the bible mentions homosexuality, and proved them to be wildly out of proportion.

Even though you may have been to every place where the bible mentions homosexuality, maybe you missed it, or just implyed the message how you wanted to talk it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ;

How nice of you to assume that christianity is the only religion.

Never did, you took it that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

Oh, Lordy, more End Times drivel. As a European you just sound fanatical when you bring up stuff like that, so it's really not the right way to go about "enlightening us".

Also, Could you please perhaps show us a bit of consideration and spell check before posting?

Yes, more End Times drivel, as you put it. As a European, were do you get this stuff. Im not enlightening you, Im telling you.

As, for my spell check, Im not here to please you for my spelling, just here to express my opinion on gay marriage...It's not a "HOW TO SPELL" trend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohannafromIHJ:

Then it's also a "spiritual fact" that the world is coming to and end because some people claim an Incan Goddess will soon fly through it to scourge it from evil and let it be reborn. Hey, as long as it's spiritual, its a fact! Or that Oden will lead the other God's into battle when the Life Tree Yggfrasil dies and Ragnarok ensues, and that Balder will be born again into the world to rule over it together with the few who survive.

Yeah i guess so. Maybe not everything you say, but you seem to be very well on target. Soon the world will come to an end, because of Outragous sin. Homosexuality is one thing that god goes agaist, but hey remember who am i to say right..... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Feel Free to Respond.......Enjoy....Peace

JULIE>.......... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

GrhmLz · 04-22-2004, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
*sigh* It just amazes me that the arguments against gay marriage are based on religion.

]

Arguments against gay marriage are going to be based on God or Religious beliefs. There is no getting pass that. You don't have to be religious to be against homosexuality. You may just believe in God and the laws of the bible but have no religion that you are affiliated with.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
Think outside your religion for just one second!

Okay, asking this question of a person opposed to homosexual marriage with religious beliefs is like asking a person in support of homosexual marriage to please think outside of: love and civil rights!

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
 The world doesn't operate on your terms nor does it run on one religion.

They are God's terms and not mine. I just follow God's terms. Secondly, you're right. The world doesn't always operate according to God's terms. That is why we have those "bigger" issues such as "War" and "Famine" and "division by religion" throughout the world.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
To expect the US government to deny gay people the right to marry just because it goes against what some people's belief system says is just...scary.

The U.S. governmen can deny homosexuals entrance into marriage if enough of the law-makers carry a value-sytem that deems it immoral and unbeneficial to society. Everyone carries a belief system with them wherever they go.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
If you're going to argue against same sex marriage, leave religion out of it. Can anyone do that? Apparantly not.

We don't have to leave it out of our argument. Freedom of Religion only protects you against being forced under a religious institution and doesn't guarantee you protection against hearing about it or people basing their value systems on it. Freedom of Speech? It still exists, you know. There are many laws shared by both religion and government. Murder happens to be one example. If enough of a law-making body decides that homosexual marriage is immoral and unnecessary, it will become a law under the government. It will be another law that government and religion share in common. That is all.

Secondly, I already stated one of my "non-religious" arguments (if you want to call it that). I don't believe homosexuals are being discriminated against because I don't believe Marriage is a right. Marriage is an institution between a man and a woman. And legal precedent supports that. There is no legal precedent that indicates that marriage was ever meant to be between two members of the same sex. The institution should not be altered.

[quote]Originally posted by Lexi A.:
That said, I guess I have nothing to reply to other than religion filled posts.../QUOTE]

You don't have to reply to them. Just ignore them if you don't like them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
That makes no sense to me. I believe God is love and is perfect. By definition, God could not then be vengeful or hateful or anything negative.

God is loving and perfect but God is also vengeful. The bible makes reference to that. God destroyed the earth with floods to wash away all the sin in the story of Noah's Ark. God promised the earth would never be destroyed by water again (ie...the sinking of the lost continent of Atlantis) Jesus also remarked how there is a time coming when "the father" will grow weary of the people and all of the sin. That is why the book of Revelations is predicted.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
Also, the Bible? It is a wonderful document with many wonderful lessons, but to think it is the unaltered word of God is foolish. Mankind is far from perfect, and with all the language, political, and social changes that have occurred over centuries (not to mention books that have been left out of the Bible), how could anyone see the Bible as unaltered?

Why would a God who is perfect and all-knowing diliberately choose prophets to falsely send his message? How do you know that they were gifted with "automatic writing" in which the Holy Spirit comes through the hand when the person writes?

What from the bible is altered? If you don't have faith, what do you consider to be altered? Is it just the parts pertaining to homosexuality or everything you decide to disagree with?

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited GrhmLz ]

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited GrhmLz ]

GrhmLz · 04-22-2004, 07:11 PM

Double Post

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited GrhmLz ]

GrhmLz · 04-22-2004, 07:11 PM

Double post

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited GrhmLz ]

bugs8476 · 04-22-2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrhmLz:


Why would a God who is perfect and all-knowing diliberately choose prophets to falsely send his message? How do you know that they were gifted with "automatic writing" in which the Holy Spirit comes through the hand when the person writes?

What from the bible is altered? If you don't have faith, what do you consider to be altered? Is it just the parts pertaining to homosexuality or everything you decide to disagree with?

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited GrhmLz ]

[ 04-22-2004: Message edited GrhmLz ]

We are family, don't you be hating on me.

Preach it sista, Preach it. [img]smilies/hippie.gif[/img] [img]smilies/group_hug.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cheers.gif[/img] [img]smilies/hug.gif[/img] [img]smilies/roswell_crashdown_liz.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil_laugh.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rotfl.gif[/img] [img]smilies/ufo.gif[/img] [img]smilies/martian.gif[/img] [img]smilies/blinkie.gif[/img]

AirBear · 04-22-2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

The U.S. governmen can deny homosexuals entrance into marriage if enough of the law-makers carry a value-sytem that deems it immoral and unbeneficial to society. Everyone carries a belief system with them wherever they go.

By your standards we'd still have legal and institutional racism and sexism. And yes, it is the same thing because the Bible was the main evidence that perpetuated these behaviors.

Quote:

Arguments against gay marriage are going to be based on God or Religious beliefs. There is no getting pass that. You don't have to be religious to be against homosexuality. You may just believe in God and the laws of the bible but have no religion that you are affiliated with.

I think everyone else on this thread is perceiving the difference between religion and organized religion in a different way. Meaning that religion is belief in God and his laws and organized religion is belonging to a church.

Quote:

Okay, asking this question of a person opposed to homosexual marriage with religious beliefs is like asking a person in support of homosexual marriage to please think outside of: love and civil rights!

Not really, those in favor of "love and civil rights" are trying to be fair, not trying to take away people's rights.

Quote:

We don't have to leave it out of our argument. Freedom of Religion only protects you against being forced under a religious institution and doesn't guarantee you protection against hearing about it or people basing their value systems on it.

They're not saying you can't talk about your religious views, they were just probing for a different, secular perspective that should actually attempt to hold up in a court of law. But, their query has been answered by the silence.

Quote:

Marriage is an institution between a man and a woman. And legal precedent supports that. There is no legal precedent that indicates that marriage was ever meant to be between two members of the same sex. The institution should not be altered.

AGAIN, by your standards, women and minorities would not and should not have legal access to institutions such as education.

Quote:

What from the bible is altered? If you don't have faith, what do you consider to be altered? Is it just the parts pertaining to homosexuality or everything you decide to disagree with?

I think that's rude of you to say. I don't think she's basing her opinions on the Bible due to her disagreement. Maybe, like all literary critics, she's taking into account the writers' biases in every word of the book.