News & Politics - Same Sex Marriage Continued - Page 5

Semmer · 04-20-2004, 05:09 PM

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Originally posted by AirBear:
Good lord, LMAO. There are just no words, the language barrier is just too strong here, so I'm gonna resort to other tactics.

::Care Bear stares::

You should use the care bear that has a rainbow on it's stomach....no pun intended. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Katis · 04-20-2004, 05:11 PM

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Originally posted by GrhmLz:


Now here are some of my thoughts:

I am aware that in theory we are suppose to have the practice of "Separation of Church and State". But what about the term God? God isn't a church is it? In fact, God may be talked about in a Church but it doesn't have to be! Afterall, we have the modern day "Church of Scientology."

Most reasonable people take the word Church to mean organized religion. Meaning that the beliefs of one Church should not interfere with the workings of the Government. You're taking the word 'church' far too liberally.

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Secondly, the concept of "Separation of Church and State" derived when the colonies of New England when they separated from Great Britain. They didn't want the church to ever be able to force its will on the people again. However, the battle wasn't between the people and God. The battle was between the people and the Church/King!

And yet here you are trying to force the will of your church on the people. Were you really trying to put that as an argument for your postition?

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Thirdly, it can be argued that a Church/religion is an institution just like the government. So, therefore, isn't it possible to say that the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is about two, distinct institutions fighting for control? And the people of the new colonies didn't want the church to be the institution to govern because they didn't want to be governed through a dictatorship by a King;

They didn't want to be forced to adhere to a religion they didn't believe in. Which is what you are trying to do by saying that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. You are trying to force others to live according to your religion.

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thus, "Separation of Church and State" allowing a government institution separate from the Church institution. But that still wouldn't ban the possiblity of finding the same ideals in both institutions because members of one can be members of the other one. Therefore, God can be a completely separate entity from the church.

Yes, God can be a separate entity from a Church. However, what does that have to do with anything? It's still religion, it's still some people trying to enforce their religion over other people. You can belong to both institutions if you want. However they are not meant to mingle.

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Fourth, our bill of rights and first amendment to the constitution! Freedom of and from religion. If it can be argued that religion is an institution, and not God itself, then it is possible to assume that God can still be apart of a secular Society. It's just that you can't force people to abide by a religious institution but people could base their ideals off of God and not necessarily religion. This interpretation makes much more sense based on the fact that:

Following the Bible is religion though. It's a belief in a supernatural power and creator. Just because you can believe in God without belonging to an institution doesn't mean you can enforce the teachings of the Bible on people who don't want it.

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(a)One of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, incorporated the Phrase "Endowed with certain inalienable rights by Our Creator..." (There is a definite reference to a God here)

Thomas Jefferson and many of the other writers of the Constitution owned slaves and valued the worth of an African-American as 3/5 that of a white man. Women were not allowed to own land or vote, nor could white men who had no land. Should we go back to that just because it was in the Constitution?

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(b)The phrase "In God We trust" is incoporated on our currency.

Yeah well there are going to be cows and cheese printed on the Wisconsin quarter. Does that mean since I live in Wisconsin I need to go out and buy a cow? After all it's on the money!

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(c)"One Nation Under God" was incorporated in our Pledge of Allegiance when it was first created

Um. No. "One Nation Under God" was added much later.

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(d)Prayer was allowed in the public school system until late in the last century when it was challenged and banned

Again, is this an attempt to support your point of view? Because you say right there that it was changed. Things change, just like homosexuals will be allowed to marry one day in this country.

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Based on this information, it would be inaccurate to claim that the U.S., from the beginning, had a government completely separate and distinct from God. Separate from the Church, yes. From God, no! It hasn't been until recently, that athesist segments of society have come forth in the legal arena challenging this and things have been changed based on new interpretation. The real meaning of the term "Separation of Church and State" is up for argument.

It would also be innacurate to claim that we live according to the wishes of the original constitution as we have made changes over the years to accomodate the evolution of our society. Just as it was changed to allow women and minorities more rights, it can be changed to allow those same rights to homosexuals.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
No, it is a spiritual fact, because it says so in the bible. I just didn't make it up. i stateed before, "Homosexuality is a spiritual fact, because it is stated in the bible, I'm not forcing my believe's on anybody, I'm just simply stating the obvious.

Not every believes in the Bible. It's a fact to those who follow the Bible and believe in it. To everyone else it's just words in a book. You are forcing your beliefs on others. Not everyone believes what you believe, you are trying to force that on them. How more obvious can it be that you are trying to force your beliefs on others?

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Its not the fact of being gay, its the act and gay marriage. It will affect my beliefs and values, with what i am trying to teach my future children.

You do realize that just because you tell your children that homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean they will believe you. Friends have a lot of impact on what a child's morals are. Friends, school, what they read, and a lot of other factors in life besides parents. And considering that any future children you have will be living in a society that is generally much more accepting of homosexuals than you, chances are they will not completely share your views on this subject.

[ 04-20-2004: Message edited Katis ]

Semmer · 04-20-2004, 05:28 PM

Personally, I just don't think homosexuals getting married is the most pressing issue in our society, and yet it seems to get the most attention. This is just something I don't understand. It's like when some religious fanatics were burning Harry Potter books because they thought it promoted witchcraft. I like Harry Potter and yet I am no where near studying things like Wicca.

I think society is smart enough to know that being homosexual is not something taught. Therefore, by making marriage legal people know that they aren't going to become homosexual overnight.

One big reason I support gay marriage is because of the people who hate gays and violently towards them. I don't believe anyone on these boards are, but I think for ones who would act violently towards gays and hate them, by prohibiting gays from marrying might send a wrong message to them. They might believe that the government is behind them and their cause and condones their hatred that they act on towards homosexuals.

bugs8476 · 04-20-2004, 08:52 PM

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Originally posted by StellaSlight:


First let me tell you how stupid it is to say that since I live in France I don't know anything about what's going on in the US. I happen to study YOUR civilization, YOUR laws and YOUR history, YOUR democracy so I can even teach you a thing or two about them. Like how the democracy that you're so proud of has been painful, bloody and really hypocrit for centuries, not even being a democracy (with the issues of slavery, the Native Americans, Chinese, Irish, Jews or Japanese, and in ALL cases, the support of your religion). But that would be another topic. On the other side, you don't seem to know alot about your own society either (nor the world'd), so maybe it's time you read some of the stuff the other people say.

Like :

1. You say there's two places you know where marriage between gays is allowed : Europe/Canada. Well, Europe is not a country, so you can divide it in lots of countries, and then next time you can say that you know about a dozen of countries who allow gay marriages.

2. You didn't even read correctly. I said that there were religious people who were against gay marriages in Europe. A lot. You know, the radical religious people who think that it's a sin to be homosexual, and that's why it shouldn't be allowed in the civil law (while being totally aware of the separation between Church/State). Well, then, years after the passing of the law that allowed gay people to marry, the same religious people admitted that this law didn't give Christians' rights away and that this law was harmless.

3. You said that gay marriages will increase population, but then claimed that you know that homosexuals can't have children. I don't need to read your previous post to say that it is contradictory, ignorant and untrue. Homosexuals can't have children therefore they can't increase the population. Period. Even through adoption, they can't increase the number of the poulation since those babies would have been conceived by heterosexuals anyway. Here's your answer.

4. Chaos won't happen just because you're rooting your theory of chaos on views of insane people, fanatic people who would prefer kill homosexuals than see them be granted a civil rights. The huge minority of the people, although wary, are not crazy. You're a very minority and when the time comes for this little 'chaos', I'd have no sympathy at all for those, and I'd gladly see them put either in jail or mental institution.
And geez, you just sound like those fanatic muslim terrorists from Al-Quaeda that preach/predict the war against the people they don't like, because God don't like them. Seriously. Or worse, you just sound like the KKK with their views on Blacks, and the fact that they have to 'protest' against the civil rights that are given to the Black people and create chaos.

5. You don't seem to understand the legal/political system. A government can enforce all the laws that are PASSED. See, you're forced to live in a society with divorce and pre-marital sex. You're forced to live in a country with people from other religion. You're even forced to hear all our opinions against your God's laws, because it's a free-speech country. Why aren't you already off in the streets, creating chaos?

6. YOu said that back in the 60's they didn't have the technology we have now... What do you mean, you mean people from today will throw computers at the government?
What's your point by bringing up technology anyway? Does it have anything to do with homosexual marriages?

7. You're saying : "Homosexuals that commit a act with the same sex is going aganist gods law....thats what i was saying".
AAAh, finally. I haven't understood it after you guys have repeated that argument a billion times. And in the end it's always the same argument and the only one : your belief that God hates homosexuals just as you. The whole 'chaos'/gays-will-increase-the-population crap was just it, crap.

I did say that since you live in France that you didn't know anything about what's going on in the US. I said that you might not know everything, so don't switch my words aroud please....I'm happy for you that you study the civilization, laws, history, and democracy, but it doesn't mean you can teach me everything, because you don't live over here.

If you say that are democracy has been Painful,bloody and really hypocrit for centuries then what makes you think they won't do this agaisnt Homosexuality.

That's right all those things are a differnts topic so why mention them...Where on the subject of Homosexulity.

1. That's what other people said, but beside the point about how many of your, supposly countries have it, I won't have to mention it because you have done that for me.

2. According to you this was supposly said. Because according to my last finding, i havent't seen that stated anywhere. Did you take a survey on everyone in euroupe to detrmine these results. There is a loop hole missing here. Please explain to me.

3. On the increasing part of the population i was trying to explain that after you have incrased that gay marriage is ok.....all over the world.....it is just another problem added to the world to cause more chaos.
As i said in other post"I know homosexuals can not have babies, i was explaining the sitution, of what will happen if gay marriages are spreading, and increasing the higher risk...or chaos.

4. Thoery is a theory, but choas happens over a peiord of time, when a nation falls, for "dis-obeying god" instead of the United States of America, we can call it The United Sin of America. Altanis aready went down, soon the u.s, and the world will too.

But explian to me, if their is choas, there is not control, no control, means no jail or ever mental insitiution, in this case nobody will be going any where. Its not that god does not like them, Its that they are breaking "Gods Laws". Rights for African American and Rights for gay marriages is two different topics.

5. I do understand the legal/political system. Yes, the gov't can enforce all the laws and pass them, it doesn't mean there right. Thats sinnful enough, so why don't we just add in "gay marriage" rights. Why were add it lets let all the sex predators, so they can do what they do best...I guess were breaking their rights too. It doesn't matter what religion u are in, but the fact that u follow "Gods Laws".

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Your're forced to hear all our opinion against your god's laws, because it's a free-speech country. Why aren't you already off in the streets, creating chaos?

I'm not forced to do anything, but I am here to debate your opinions against God's laws, not judging you, but simply preaching it. I don't need to start choas, when eventully it will start it self, why don't you?

6. Back in the 60's they don't have the same sources or even the same laws as we do not. But besides the point, Are country has fallen into a deeper hole than when it was back in the 60's.

7. I feel that the agruement we were making is not crap, but simply and arguement you just don't want to here. God's laws are important in my life, I came here to preach the words of the lords, if you don't like my arguement then don't responed.

Feel free to respond......Enjoy..... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

JUlIE..... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

pacifierrocks · 04-20-2004, 09:34 PM

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Rights for African American and Rights for gay marriages is two different topics.

5. I do understand the legal/political system. Yes, the gov't can enforce all the laws and pass them, it doesn't mean there right. Thats sinnful enough, so why don't we just add in "gay marriage" rights. Why were add it lets let all the sex predators, so they can do what they do best...I guess were breaking their rights too. It doesn't matter what religion u are in, but the fact that u follow "Gods Laws".

Sexual predators harm people. Homosexuals do not. There's a difference.

Now it may just be your word choice, but when you say the right for african americans and rights for gay marriage it seems as though you take the person out of gay marriage. Gay people should have the same rights as straight people. Its the right for gay people to get married. as in the rights for african americans to vote, marry,etc. They want to be on equal ground as everyone else. Just because someone likes another person of the same sex doesn't mean that they're any less of a person, and therefore should be denied the rights that everyone else has.

and if America or the world for that matter has to go down just so everyone can be equal, then so be it. Go down. I'll happily go with it.

migamoo · 04-20-2004, 09:54 PM

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Altanis aready went down, soon the u.s, and the world will too.

Can you actaully prove that Atlanis existed? As far as I know (and please someone correct me if I am wrong) there has never been any tangible proof it has ever existed.

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Rights for African American and Rights for gay marriages is two different topics.

How are they different topics? They both have to do with equal rights under the law. African Americans got their rights back in the civil rights movement, but gays have yet to receive theirs.

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It doesn't matter what religion u are in, but the fact that u follow "Gods Laws".

Not all religions have a god though. Look at the Hari Krishnas(sp),the Buddhists, the Athiests. They don't have a god.

Ashley

[ 04-20-2004: Message edited Fieryangel ]

Timeo · 04-20-2004, 10:06 PM

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Altanis aready went down, soon the u.s, and the world will too.

SERIOUSLY, and I ask you with all the sincerity that I can muster up in the face of such rubbish, but my question is this. WHERE DO YOU GET THESE ARGUMENTS FROM!? It's literally a page out of the National Enquirer. Or the Sun. Well more so the Sun because the Sun's more trashy and fake. But yeah, where do you get these arguments?

migamoo · 04-20-2004, 10:22 PM

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Originally posted by Timeo:


SERIOUSLY, and I ask you with all the sincerity that I can muster up in the face of such rubbish, but my question is this. WHERE DO YOU GET THESE ARGUMENTS FROM!? It's literally a page out of the National Enquirer. Or the Sun. Well more so the Sun because the Sun's more trashy and fake. But yeah, where do you get these arguments?

The Sun is a good choice because they have to do with more "religious" stuff, but I would also have to nominate Weekly World News.

Katis · 04-20-2004, 10:26 PM

I just want to remind you all that while going after posts is acceptable, going after posters is not. It's a very difficult topic but just remember to be respectful. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

GrhmLz · 04-20-2004, 10:34 PM

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You're forced to hear all our opinion against God's laws, because it's a free-speech country.

[img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] Yes, I know. Which is why you'll have to deal with hearing our views against homosexual marriage. Isn't free-speech a beautiful thing?

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
I did not ask for an answer, I asked another poster

I wasn't asking for your permission to give you an answer, so I supplied one anyway!

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
Your fundie hatred has done nothing but convince me to never go near the Christian God

So you are angered by the Christian God? Don't understand what the Christian God ever did to you.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
You're being Childish.

Please refrain from bashing the poster, which is I. And do not refer to me as Roswell fangirl or Alien girl again. That is not attacking the post but attacking me.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
...And your use of the roll-eye smilie (which most of us here agreed not to use in debate as it is obnoxious) only proves this.

Hey, I have no qualms about not using the roll-eye smilie! Nobody informed me that this thread had reached that agreement until I heard it from another poster who was told the same thing I am right here.

However, I can't help but wonder why you would have come to the agreement to begin with? I hardly saw anybody that was against gay marriage pop up on this thread until Bugs, mh67511, and I showed up. Why would you have to worry about the "rolleye" smilie if you had nobody to debate before us? Doesn't make much sense to me unless you made it up the minute we showed up. Which makes perfect sense since none of us were informed about it.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
...If you want to give up and go do something else, just say so...

So now this is a contest for you? And here I thought you were posting on this thread because you were in support of gay marriage.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
What I asked for was a passage in the bible where homosexuality is condemned...

Here it is:

I Corinthians 6: 9-11:

[i]"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor the greedy nor drunkdards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God."[/qb][/quote]

And Jesus stated in Matthew 15:19 :

..."For out of the heart came evil thoughts, murder, adultry, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man unclean; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean."

And most importantly about Marriage, Jesus restated in the New Testament in Mark 10: 6-9 :

"But at the beginning of Creation God 'made them male and female.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let man not separate.

And lastly, from God's Ten Commandments regarding children in the structure of family:

Honour your father and mother

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
...(And blatantly ignored any biblical proof I put forward)

You haven't provided biblical proof. You have provided alternate biblical translation you believe to be proof along with your own biased opinion. And as you have stated, a belief isn't proof of anything, right?

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
...Waffling on about human degrees and translators instead of actually offering proof that the original translations of the bible are correct...

Faith doesn't require proof; however, science does. Jesus was asked to proof he was really the Messiah. He didn't have to proof anything nor did he try to.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
I am offended because you're calling the love between honest good people perverted.

They may be good and honest people but that doesn't change the fact that "homosexual love" is immoral.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
So, you could go out tomorrow and fall in love with a woman? It's all behavioral, right?

Yes, because human beings have free will to choose what our actions and behavior will be it is possible. However, I accept that homosexual acts are immoral so I will not choose to go out and fall in love with another woman. And yes, loving God is a choice because there are people that admit to being atheist. They have made the choice not to believe in the presence of a god.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
Cause it's okay to be offensive and say hurtful things if you hide behind religion, right?

But sometimes the truth just hurts.

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Originally posted by JohannnafromIHJ:
I've been a Mormon and a Protestant, I've gone to school (several in fact). I've read the bible several times, I've read Hebrew mythology and studied it with a Jewish woman fluent in Hebrew, I've read the Quran, I've been to a hell of a lot of lectures and I'm quite intelligent.[

Well, good for you but what is your point here? I've been a Catholic and a Spiritualist. I also have attended many schools. I have two degree and I am working towards a third. I too have read the bible several times and I have attended lectures. I have graduated college with honors and I am a member of six, academic honor societies. I have been placed in the National Dean's list and also consider myself to be quite intelligent.

P.S. The Sources that I was referring to have nothing to do with the materialistic plane of existence. It has nothing to do with measuring how intelligent you are by earthly standards but is referring to spiritual evolvement that allows you to understand these gifts of which I speak. Otherwise, if you weren't ready to understand them you would just mock them.

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Originally posted by JohannafromIHJ:
"Poor girl." That's probably why you ship M/L though right? I doubt you'd be so fervenlty invested in them if you didn't feel something for them.

Yeah, you're right. It's because they were about the only couple on that show that didn't engage in pre-marital sex. Thank god there is was one couple left on television that demonstrates some morality compared to all the lustful filth and hidden porn we have on television now.

But seeing since this is a thread discussing homosexual marriage and not Roswell, my suggestion is to discuss Roswell over at the Roswell boards. That is what it's there for.

Katis · 04-20-2004, 10:37 PM

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Originally posted by GrhmLz:

Hey, I have no qualms about not using the roll-eye smilie! Nobody informed me that this thread had reached that agreement until I heard it from another poster who was told the same thing I am right here.

However, I can't help but wonder why you would have come to the agreement to begin with? I hardly saw anybody that was against gay marriage pop up on this thread until Bugs, mh67511, and I showed up. Why would you have to worry about the "rolleye" smilie if you had nobody to debate before us? Doesn't make much sense to me unless you made it up the minute we showed up. Which makes perfect sense since none of us were informed about it.

It's not just this thread. It's the entire board. People were using it very liberally against one another awhile ago and it just got people pissed off. So it was decided we would not use it in debate.

migamoo · 04-20-2004, 10:47 PM

GrhmLz I fail to see using that scripture how homosexuality is being condemned. The closest I "see" is the first from 1 Corinthians saying that "homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God". But even that can be a stretch considering there are a lot of gay christians. Do you honestly believe that these people are not going to go to Heaven because they are gay?

I have another question, for anyone, but more specifically those against gay marriage : if one day you have children, and one of those children happened to be gay, would you not want them to be happy? Would you not want them to be married? Don't you think they would be depressed and feel inferior because they aren't allowed equal rights?

Ashley

Timeo · 04-20-2004, 11:11 PM

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...you believe to be proof along with your own biased opinion. And as you have stated, a belief isn't proof of anything, right?

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. Congratulations.

Timeo · 04-20-2004, 11:50 PM

On the other hand:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...eut/index.html

migamoo · 04-21-2004, 12:04 AM

just felt like quoting this from the article. it's something i totally agree with:

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"Civil rights has taken a major step forward," said Leno, the bill's author. "Marriage is a right and not a privilege."