News & Politics - Same Sex Marriage Continued - Page 15

Brooklyn's babe · 04-28-2004, 03:30 PM

Quick question, what denomination are you? I�m Lutheran, of the LCMS persuasion. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And yes, there is a difference between LCMS and ELCA.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Well that's very intersting. please stop now before it's to late. contradicting yourself was not a
good idea.

Explain to me how I was contradicting myself. Because I refuse to follow what the hypocritical voices in the church dictacte-not the church itself, mind you-, and chose to form my own beliefs based on the Bible?

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Originally posted by bugs8476:

Sins are not forgivable unless somebody wants to be forgiven, and asks the lord for the forgivenss, but acutally means it. No matter if you don't believe in god or you do, the only way to get that forgiveness is to ask for it. You don't ask, you don't recieve, which means you won't be forgiven.

Question, how can you ask for forgiveness from a being you don�t believe in.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Wow...What a comparison. Committing an homosexual act can not compare to wearing a ploy/cotton blend. What? I won't even go there. As for not respecting the gov't or those in it, is not wrong. There is disagreement all over the place, and to disagree with something is not a crime or even wrong. But for being a christian, you should now that homosexuality is wrong, and it does state it in the bible. Com'on you should now that.

And why not? Both are condoned in Leviticus (Lev. 18:22 and Lev. 19:19). As for respecting the government or those in it, try reading your Bible, specifically Titus 3:1. It states �Remind your people to submit to the government and its officers. They should be obedient, always ready to do what is good.�(NLT) Yes, there is disagreement all over the place, but see, I was talking about respect.
Did I say homosexuality was right? No. It�s a sin. And like all sins, it�s wrong.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Yes. This is my personal opinion, and feelings on this subject matter. I don't condone this lifestyle and i never will. My children will know ahead of time that homosexuality is wrong, and it does go agaisnt the kingdom of God.

Fine, it�s your personal opinion. Don�t try to force it on your children. More often then not, people resent those who try to force their religion down their throats. I know this from my and my friends experiences. We either resented them or laughed our rears off at them.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
No. See, People like you may have to become a hermit on some unclaimed island, because you claim to be a christian, when in reality you don't want to Face the truth about homosexuality.But don't worry I'll Pray for you.

[img]smilies/rotfl.gif[/img] [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rotfl.gif[/img] What truth about homosexuality? That it�s wrong? I�ve already covered this. I know it�s wrong because it�s a sin.
As for you praying for me, don�t bother. Get out your bible instead.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Why as a christian, i think i know that. But homosexuals have a choice to be who they are. Sinning in deed they are, but see Im only here just to preach what is right, not to judge.

So Christians and other sinners have no choice to be who they are? Doesn�t the Bible say that we
all are by nature sinful? (Romans 2:1-16, 3:9-18)? So why is it that homosexuals have a choice to sin and other sinners don�t? Aren�t you contradicting yourself?
But, aren�t you judging homosexuals by saying, �Yeah, I sin, but at least I�m not as bad as them?�

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Nobody is perfect. Even though people may sin, and it may not be everyday. Doesn't mean they don't live up to god everyday.

So you don�t ever get angry at your husband or children during the day, or lie or gossip or hold a grudge? And other�s don�t do this on a daily basis?

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Originally posted by bugs8476:[qb]
For being a christian, you make no sense.
I can spread the word of the lord whenever, and how I please. Homosexuality is wrong, it is the bible, and states it clearly. Preaching about something that is wrong is not doing anything but preaching what god said and what he would want me to say.

Originally Posted by Brooklyn's Babe:
I think homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals. 

You claim to be a christian. Well that says it all.

Tell me how I�m not making sense and I�ll try to explain it to you and where I�m coming from using passages from the Bible. And WHEN did I say that homosexuality wasn�t wrong? Please tell me because I can�t find where I said that?
I�m not saying you can�t �spread the word of the lord whenever, and how I please.� I�m just saying that you can�t spread the word of God, when you refuse to have anything to do with sinning which is what you were saying. I even put it in quotation marks so you would know I was quoting you.

I find it interesting that you cut off the first part of that sentence. I said �from a legal standpoint I think homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals. Why did you cut the first part
of that sentence off? From a legal standpoint, I do think homosexuals deserve the same rights as heterosexuals. Does it or does it not say in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America �We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?� How can someone be considedered equal, if they don�t have equal rights under the law? How can someone be happy or pusue happiness, if, by doing so, they�re doing something illegal? Please explain to me this.
It says, in the first amendment to the constitution, �Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,� Wouldn�t a law banning gay marriages, be respecting the Christian religion? Thus my legal standpoint.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:You claim to be a christian. Well that says it all.

I claim to be a Christian? A Christian is a follower of Christ. I am a follower of Christ, therefore I am a Christian. Just because I have a different point of view then you doesn�t make me any less a follower of Christ.

[ 04-28-2004: Message edited Brooklyn's babe ]

Lexi A. · 04-28-2004, 04:31 PM

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
 Nothing is damaging about brianwashing our children. To force an issue on them and make them feel its ok, is wrong. Homosexuality is something that is not natural, but simply something that is made by a choice.

Huh? So brainwashing is a good thing now?

I never said anything about forcing an issue on them or making them feel it is okay. All I said was that they needed to be made aware of what homosexuality is so that they understand it. Homosexuality exists in this world, and chances are they will one day know someone who is homosexual. In order for people to be tolerant of others (whether they like them or not), they have to understand them - at least to some degree.

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You choose who you want to be with. You just don't develping feeling over one time seeing someone. Being attracted to someone is something you developed on your own. God gave every one "Free Will" which intends to give you a free chocie to. To choose who you are attracted to. So please, if you don't agree with me, please tell me why you don't feel its a choice, i would like to hear your reasoning.

On some level, you do make a choice who you want to be with. And, you're right - to develop real feelings for someone you have to know them longer than that first moment of seeing/meeting someone. But when you are attracted to someone or start to like them, you don't consciously say 'I like boys. I want to like you. I like you.' It just happens, sometimes before you even realize it.

Have you ever had a crush or liked someone?

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Well I think I did....Becuase i choose this...Remember you choose who you are attrached to.

I refuse to believe that anyone wakes up and decides to like anyone. You say you think you did, please tell me the day you decided this.

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Originally posted by No1important:
Whose business is it anyways if a same sex people get married or not? Its no one elses business. It is too bad the USA has such a narrow minded president. I am in a hetrosexual marriage and same sex marriage is legal here in Canada and by George the sun still comes up every morning................

Exactly. I don't understand why people feel so threatened by same sex marriage. Why do they even care? Let people live for themselves.

[ 04-28-2004: Message edited Lexi A. ]

Lexi A. · 04-28-2004, 04:51 PM

I've asked these questions before, and I'm still waiting for an answer.

To all those against same sex marriage:

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1. If homosexuals want to go to the courthouse to get married or find a church that is open to marrying them, what's wrong with that? How does it bother or threaten you?

2. You use the bible to defend your view that homosexuality is wrong. When slavery was around, people said it was okay based on the bible. The oppression of women was okay based on the bible. Even some male abusers nowadays defend the way they treat the women because they say the bible gives them the right to do so. Do you think we should go back to accepting these things because the bible says so?

Brooklyn's babe · 04-28-2004, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lexi A.:
2. You use the bible to defend your view that homosexuality is wrong. When slavery was around, people said it was okay based on the bible. The oppression of women was okay based on the bible. Even some male abusers nowadays defend the way they treat the women because they say the bible gives them the right to do so. Do you think we should go back to accepting these things because the bible says so?

What people didn't realize when using the "it's found in the Bible" argument for slavery, is that during biblical times, slavery wasn't about race and skin color like it was in recent history. It was about nations conquering other nations and wanting to humiliate the citizens of the conquered nation.

About male abusers hiding behind the bible. The verses they usually hide behind are something to the effect of "wives submit to your husbands," correct? Unfortunately, these people forget about the verses that come after it, about husbands loving their "wives as Christ loved the church"(Ephesians 5:25)Other verses which have this are Colossians 3:19 and 1 Peter 3:7. I can find no where in the Bible that it says it's okay to beat someone into a bloody pulp because they can't defend themselves against you or because they're a woman.
Unfortunately, as has always been done with the bible, people will always take things out of context to justify what they're doing, even if it goes against God's Word.

In conculsion, no, I don't think we should bring slavery back, or that wife and girlfriend beaters/abusers are right in abusing females.

[ 04-28-2004: Message edited Brooklyn's babe ]

migamoo · 04-28-2004, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bugs8476:
Hey, sure no problem. In the book of Galatians....Under No other gospel...Very interesting, so read it.

That's not helpful enough to me. What I wanted was an exact scripture. You don't have to post it, but at least give the chapter and verse.

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Just because you may have a sinnful nature, does not mean that people sin everyday. IF this is how you feel, please explian why..I would like to see your point of view on why you feel this way. Thanks.

You contradicted yourself again. You said, and I quote "They can't." when I said, "How can someone not sin?" I took what you said as 'A person cannot not sin.' Meaning that we all sin which would lead to daily sin. But if you want to hear my reasoning on why we sin everyday, here you go :
Humans, in their nature are sinful. Obviously this means we sin. People sin by not following what is right. People everyday can say something bad about another person, that's a sin. They could curse against God, that's a sin. They could rape, murder, plot to murder. ect which are all sins. And just because someone doesn't act out a sin, they can still think. One can think in a sinful way, which obviously would be a sin. Can you honestly tell me that you have gone a day without sinning? If you can, I think you would be mistaken.

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Why not. I would preach to murderer just like i am preaching on this thread. Spreading the word of lord is not wrong,

No, spreading the word of God is not wrong, but trying to force it upon those can be problematic.

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A murder broke one of the ten Commandments "thou shall not kill".

So if someone broke a commandment (which homosexuality is not a part of) it's ok to preach to them. But you won't preach to homosexuals even though you claim they commit a sin by being that way because it's not part of the commandments? (This may not be what you are saying, but that is what I percieved from that post)

Ashley

Coren · 04-28-2004, 05:37 PM

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Just because people don't see my truth, doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Of course, when your on the other side of the argument, then you would not see my truth, or just don't want to hear about it.

Your truth is the only truth now? How incredibly narrow-minded.

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Honour your father and your mother

Parents have a duty to teach their children what is right. And as a Christian, it would be my duty as a parent to teach my children All of God's laws and commandments and not just the ones that society happens to agree with at a particular moment in time. It is important to instill these morals and values into children. How do you think similar value systems pass on from one generation to the next within a family unit?

The reason I don't agree with your statement here is because it makes a big assumption. It implies that you already know that any children that I may have will want to accept homosexuality and defy the christian teachings. Yes, it can happen but it is not definite

I don't think Honoring your mother and father goes so far as to take their beleifs upon yourself as your own. I dont mean don't listen to them, but just because they follow one road doesn't mean you by necessity should follow that road.

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Yes, but even if any children that I could have would one day oppose these teachings there would be very little I could do about it? The important point would be that I would have done my duty as a parent before God by teaching them The Word of God. However, they would still have "free will" and would reach an age of "spiritual reasoning" in which they would be held accountable for their own actions before God. But that doesn't mean that I just throw "God's laws" out the window in teaching my children what is right and wrong just because one day one of them might reject it!

Shockingly, I agree with you here [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] . Teach them what you will. You have that right.

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You choose who you want to be with. You just don't develping feeling over one time seeing someone. Being attracted to someone is something you developed on your own. God gave every one "Free Will" which intends to give you a free chocie to. To choose who you are attracted to. So please, if you don't agree with me, please tell me why you don't feel its a choice, i would like to hear your reasoning.

Let me be shallow for a moment. If I see a good looking red head, Im instantly attracted to her. Shallow instant reaction, but let's go with that for a minute. Now if she's got a crappy personality, that's going to be unattractive and I won't like her. But regardless, I'm more attracted to girls with red hair. This is just part of who I am. I can date a girl with black hair or blonde hair or whatever, but Ill still, on the surface, be more attracted to red heads. And I don't choose that, it's part of w ho I am.

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Wow...What a comparison. Committing an homosexual act can not compare to wearing a ploy/cotton blend. What? I won't even go there

Sure it can. And with getting a tattoo or eating shellfish. Leviticus condemns them all. And we don't pick and choose which of God's laws to live by, according to you, right? So why is that an ok thing but homosexuality isn't, if we go by Leviticus? Seems hypocritical, to pick portions of it to follow and others to not.

And if you don't go by Leviticus as your source for homosexuality being wrong, what is? What passage, chapter, verse, etc says that it's wrong?

Further, if I have a book that says that going by any other religious text is wrong, that unbelievers will question my book and thus prove it valid, and it says that it is the word of God..how do you argue that it's untrue?

migamoo · 04-28-2004, 05:40 PM

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Originally posted by GrhmLz:
I think what Bugs may have been implying here (and bugs can correct me if she is wrong) is what I am about to say.

You can still love your child and refuse to endorse their lifestyle.

I'm sorry but I don't see where you could have gotten that out of her post. Disowning a child is completely different than not condoning their lifestyle.

***Jerry D*** · 04-28-2004, 05:42 PM

Well, I�m not a very religious person insofar as I don't attend church regularly, but I do believe in God, and I do believe that God loves everyone. What I don�t believe is that God would condemn someone for being gay. I also don�t believe that being gay is a sin. I�m not gay, but I simply don�t understand how some people can be so judgmental towards other people simply because of their sexual orientation.

Brooklyn's babe · 04-28-2004, 05:46 PM

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Originally posted by Fieryangel:
That's not helpful enough to me. What I wanted was an exact scripture. You don't have to post it, but at least give the chapter and verse.

What exactly were you looking for information on? I might be able to help.

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Originally posted by Fieryangel:
quote:
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Just because you may have a sinnful nature, does not mean that people sin everyday. IF this is how you feel, please explian why..I would like to see your point of view on why you feel this way. Thanks.
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You contradicted yourself again. You said, and I quote "They can't." when I said, "How can someone not sin?" I took what you said as 'A person cannot not sin.' Meaning that we all sin which would lead to daily sin. But if you want to hear my reasoning on why we sin everyday, here you go :
Humans, in their nature are sinful. Obviously this means we sin. People sin by not following what is right. People everyday can say something bad about another person, that's a sin. They could curse against God, that's a sin. They could rape, murder, plot to murder. ect which are all sins. And just because someone doesn't act out a sin, they can still think. One can think in a sinful way, which obviously would be a sin. Can you honestly tell me that you have gone a day without sinning? If you can, I think you would be mistaken.

[img]smilies/clap.gif[/img] I compleatly agree.

migamoo · 04-28-2004, 05:47 PM

Here are two questions for everyone. One just came to me and the other I've been wanting to post for some time but haven't gotten around to it. (If you want my answers just ask and I'll post them too)

1. Everyone has been talking about free will, but is everything in life caused by free will? Do you not think that God (or some higher being if you will) puts you in a situation to see how you will react?

2. Have you ever been attracted to someone of the same sex? Or maybe you think someone is pretty or cute or whatever adjective you want to use?

Ashley

**Nele** · 04-28-2004, 05:48 PM

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Originally posted by GrhmLz:
I was just curious about something here. You say that you are a Christian. However, you don't follow the bible and you have never read the bible? The term "Christian" in the religious text is "to follow in Christ's footsteps." How do you acknowledge Jesus Christ when his story is based off of the New Testament? This confuses me because it is a slightly different claim then from what others have made on the board. Some other people here have said that they are Christian but don't believe the bible is accurate. Is this what you meant?

Well this wasn't exactly what I meant. I was baptised when I was born and went to a catholic school, so yes I'm christian. I just think we have a different definition of the term Christian.
However over here in Belgium religion has lost all of its meaning. We have so many churces but those get about 10 people every sunday [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]
And I cannot claim that the bible is inaccurate because I haven't read it.

migamoo · 04-28-2004, 05:52 PM

Brooklyn's babe : Bugs said there would be people who would question the validity of the bible. I asked where in the bible it says that. If you can help, thanks. I personally just don't have the time right now to search myself.

Ashley

migamoo · 04-28-2004, 05:55 PM

Nele I would have to agree with GrhmLz on something you said. I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but if you have claimed to be Christian and have never read the Bible, do you even know what it means to be a Christian? Yes, I know you said that you went to Catholic school, but I personally think that's very limited. To grow and become a better Christian, you need to pray and read the Bible. Do you even have a copy?

Ashley

pinx · 04-28-2004, 06:00 PM

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Just because people don't see my truth, doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Of course, when your on the other side of the argument, then you would not see my truth, or just don't want to hear about it.

Bugs I'll give u that, but that means that you have to consider that quite possibly that what we are saying is the truth, that God really wants us to all be free and love whomever we choose and that most of you guys are disillusioned. At least I am able to consider the possiblity that maybe God does not condone homosexuality. Do I believe that? NO. But can I consider that, yes. That's the difference between having an open and closed mind. With all the adjectives that are used to describe God, kind, all-loving, forgiving, etc, I REFUSE to believe that he would discriminate own of his own children.

I have such problems with organized religion because of the hypocrisy of it all and how depending on the times religion is used to sway the masses in one general opinion or another. (That and the fact that so many priests are raging pedophiles. Which, you would think would be a bigger problem that gay marriage) If religion was used like politics, or for politics rather, and if the Church could get its own act together then maybe I would delve into more because religion is wonderfull. But until then, when I hear a bunch of biblethumpers (and that is in no way a reference to anyone on this thread) getting on their soap boxes and preaching this and that because, "God and the Church said so", it has the same effect of Hitler eliminating the Jews even though he was part Jewish himself (that wasn't the best analogy, I apologize)

When there was a bigger problem with racism in this country, people, in favor of equal rights used to say God knows no race. So then why shouldn't the same be said of sexual preference?

**Nele** · 04-28-2004, 06:08 PM

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Originally posted by Fieryangel:
Nele I would have to agree with GrhmLz on something you said. I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but if you have claimed to be Christian and have never read the Bible, do you even know what it means to be a Christian? Yes, I know you said that you went to Catholic school, but I personally think that's very limited. To grow and become a better Christian, you need to pray and read the Bible. Do you even have a copy?

Ashley

I understand you're not trying to be mean [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Well actually I don't know what it means to be a real Christian, I never had someone who showed it to me or thought me how the be a good one.
And yes I do have a copy of the bible but I wouldn't know where to begin because well the book is huge [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]