Katis

Continue discussion here please.

JohannafromIHJ

Thanks for the new thread.

Thank you.

I already dealt with this passage in my recent post.

For one, the start of this passages clearly show that these people had known God, but rejected him and instead sought to worship idols.

Second, your version of this verse is weird, and quite drawn out. God give not give them over to shameful lusts, he gave them over to "passions", which is kind of like suffering (The passion of the Christ, for example).

Now, it's important to realise that these people are forced by God to go against their nature, not with it. It is not in their nature to be homosexuals, which is why they are suffering when they have to engage in orgies with members of the some sex. That's sort of what makes it a punishment (or would you enjoy being torn from your family and forced to have extramarital sex with members of your own sex?)

Now, in what way does this verse show that a relationship between two consenting adults is wrong? This verse clearly shows that not only do these people have to leave their real spouse, but they also lust and engage in some pretty explicit sex with people they are not married to, or even in love with.

"They received in themselves the penalty for their perversion" says it all, doesn't it? They turned away from God (that's the perversion) and God punished them by turning their lusts so that they no longer wanted their spouse or family-life, but rather members of the same sex (and lots of them, it seems). Note that it doesn't say that these people fell in love with members of their own sex. Chances are they still loved their spouse, but their suddenly overwhelming lusts for others tore them apart.

And if this God who made us in his image gave us the right to choose -- why are you against people choosing something that you might not agree with? God may not agree with it, but he lets them make that choice. Why shouldn't you -- as someone who should strive to be Christ-like -- follow his lead and do the same thing?

haylz80

ITA.
And if in the end it really is wrong (which I completely disagree with), then why not let your God sort it out and leave well enough alone?
It's not up to Bush, or anyone else for that matter.

To actively participate in banning gay marriage is just being a nosy buttinski. Kind of like your neighbours coming over and lecturing you on how to raise your kids, because they do it a bit differently.

California_ here_ I _come

Replying to Croft -> God didn't make gay people. He made people, but being gay was their choice. I don't believe that you can't help it. But we've already gone through that discussion. So...moving on...

When he refers to their "perversion" it isn't talking about them turning away from God as the perversion. It's talking about being gay (having lust for a member of the same sex as it says, using that exact word), & it being wrong. People interpret verses differently, that's understandable. So you have a right to see it one way, & I have a right to see it another. And it's not like I'm shouting out "Ban Gay marriages right now!" But if I had to choose one...then I'm for it, rather than against it.

JohannafromIHJ

Sorry, but you're wrong.

God MADE them engage in homosexual acts as a PUNISHMENT for turning away from him. Their perversion was their turn to a pagan lifestyle. Why on Earth would God punish them for engaging in the homosexual sex HE was making them do? Your logic is way off there.

I'll use your version of the verse to illustrate my point:

This is the crime they have committed against God.

And that was their punishment.

Um, why? How does bannig people from doing things serve God? Doesn't it just alienate people? Do you think homosexuals are going to look at you and your fellow Christians and think "Gee, those are some swell people. Jesus must be an amazing God to have such wonderful followers. I think I'll go join them!", or will they be likely to shun every single thing connected to Christianity for all eternity?

California_ here_ I _come

Yes, that was the act they committed against God. And then they were punished, & acted out with the same sex. But at the end when it says they were punished for their perversion. It's saying that after they started acting that way, they were punished for it too. Because it's wrong.

I know you see it differently, & I'm not trying to change that, but I don't see it like that @ all. And you have no right to say I'm wrong. You could very well be wrong. God is the only one who knows exactly what those verses mean. But until I get to heaven, I will continue believing it the way I do, & you'll continue believing it in your way...

JohannafromIHJ

So God makes them have sex with each other, and then he punishes them for doing what he made them do?

Look, let's take an entirely different approach to this verse.

Let's say he doesn't make them have sex. Let's say they've just turned pagan and God abandons them, and without him they have no control and start shagging ach other like crazy, engaging in ritual sex with members of the same sex, and abandoning their spouses to go party up gay style.

How does this condemn a ROMANTIC relationship between two consenting adults of the same sex? I'm not talking about a sexual relationship, I'm talking about a romantic one. A romantic relationship without any anal or ritual sex whatsoever.

haylz80

I guess I can see your point. If there was campaign to stop people from having the right to vote against gay marriage I would happily vote against you having that right.
I mean not that it would affect me personally, but since I disagree with it, I think your right to vote should be taken away.

See how much that sucks?

Ashleigh

I was completely amused by this statement. *thumbs up*

Amazingly enough, there IS such a thing as a gay Christian. And no, we don't believe we're going to rot in hell. Most homosexuals will tell you that they have been homosexual since birth. No sane person wakes up one morning and says, "I want to leave the beaten path and have sex with other women! And I want to be persecuted for that! I want to be called names and be asked embarrassing questions like 'Who's the man in the relationship?'!" I'm sure that there are some people who decide they're giving up the opposite sex, but it just does not happen in people who are actually homosexual.

-Ashleigh
the gay Christian

California_ here_ I _come

Haylz -> Not really, I'd just fight against you. So I understand why gay people fight against us, but I could care less. No one's opinion effects mine in any way. And I'm sure it's the same way vise versa.

Johanna -> Huh? I don't understand what you mean. Can you try to be a little more descriptive? As soon as I understand what you mean I'll answer you.

haylz80

You would fight against me because it would be wrong of me to try and take away one of your rights, no matter how wrong I thought you were.

And it's nice to know that you understand, but could care less.

JohannafromIHJ

I meant in that verse, the one you posted. How does it condemn a romantic relationship between two consenting adults? That village of pagans were most likely not only committing adultery, but also engaging in ritual sex and orgies, and that is not what a homosexual relationship is about -- so how does it in any way relate to modern-day homosexuals?

You can't just assume that just because a bunch of people have orgies with members of the same sex, they're gay. Romantic relationships between homosexuals are very much like romantic relationships between heterosexuals -- there are usualy no orgies, or ritual sex, or even anal sex (only 8% of all homosexual men have anal sex anywhere near regularly).

How does God condemning the lustful, pagan orgies going on in a village where the people are ignoring him and focusing on pagan gods mean he's condemning non-pagan, committed monogamous romantic relationships between two people of the same sex?

By that logic he's condemning heterosexuality as well, given the number of times he has punished people for having lustful thoughts or acting lustfully towards members of the opposite sex.

Couldn't, dammit.

tinka28

I believe in same sex marriage! I dont care what the bible says or what anything says. I think that if someone makes you happy and you are in love and want to get married then you should. I also think that same sex marriages would not be at such a high seperation rate either. If the bible doesnt let it happen then dont get married in a church. I have a friend who is lesbian and she has been with her girlfriend for like 2 years and one day if she wants to get married I will support her. Because I dont see the difference in same sex marriages and hetrosexual marriages. I dont think anyone has a right to tell them what to do. I like boys and I dont have to justify myself everywhere I go like my friend does. If you like someone of the same sex its a choice just like i made the choice to like boys BUT my choice isnt of public debate. Marriage is a symbol of someones love towards the person they love and EVERYONE no matter what they prefer should be able to share that with the world!!!!!!!!!

Rivulet027

Johanna - I your posts. I now feel like I understand the Bible better. It's difficult because I grew up Southern Baptist and honestly not everything is explained too well in church. I also attempted to go to a Bible study in college, but on the first day they anounced that homosexuality and abortions were wrong and everything thing just went downhill from there till I just couldn't deal with the level of biogtry anymore and left.

Milt Palacio - thanks.

Ambular - must be nice to be bisexual. If I was bisexual I'd proably chose to date men as well, but you know what? I'm not.

I'm sorry if you've gotten discrimnated for being Christian. I find that odd, ussually its other religions that I find get discrimnated against. When I went to high school Christmas was the big holiday. They decorated the whole school and put up a big Christmas tree. There was a Bible study, which I particiapated in. It was actually more intellectual and thought out then the one I attempted to participate in in college.

See the nice thing about America is that we're supposedly a free country. There is suppose to be freedom of religion. That means that since half my family is Catholic, most of the others Protestant and nearly the rest Southern Baptist we all respect each other. All the members of my immediate family are Wiccan, I'm the only Christian. We respect each other and each other's right to pratice what religion we deem right for ourselves. I've sat down and read several books on Wicca so I could better understand my parents religion. My brother had to explain one of his art projects to a teacher because he used a Wiccan symbol in it and once she understood what he was doing she had no problem with it. A boy I use to work with and considered a friend was a Satanist. Did I tell him I was against what he believed? No, it's suppose to be a free country where he can believe what he wants. We may not have agreed on a lot of things, but we respected each other. I wouldn't try to take away his rights and he's shouldn't try to take away mine. Just like I wouldn't try to take away your rights and you shouldn't try to ban me from having the same rights you naturally have because you're in a heterosexual relationship.

I find it sad that people say I'm undecent because of things I want, because if I reposted what I said I wanted and said I wanted them with a man I wouldn't be discrimnated against. I find it sad that my country would by banning same sex marriage in a way that would be encouraging me to marry a man and enter into what for me would be a meaningless relationship, one that would merely make both me and another person miserable. How is that decent? Can you explain that to me because I really don't understand it?

CHIC - I think you're missing the point that being homosexual isn't about sex. I haven't had sex in a little over two years. I haven't been in a relationship where I'd feel comfortable engagning in sex and until I do I won't. It isn't about sex. It's about finding another person I'm attracted to and having a romantic relationship that eventually sex would be a part of. I'm 21, I've been attracted to two maybe three males my entire life...and only one so strongly that I'd have probably slept with him. I can't count the number of females I've been attracted to because it would take too long. This is how God made me. I'm gay...I'm going to be gay because that's how God made me and who am I to say that he made a mistake when he made me? I'm no one. I won't say that. So I'm going to live my life to the best of my abilities in the way I think he'd want me to live it...you do the same, but don't discrimanate against me because your views are different from mine. This is suppose to be a free country! How is it a free country if I can't have the same basic rights as you? How is there any seperation of church and state if I can't have the same rights as you because the President's religious veiw is that it's wrong?

This is a good site if you want an overview of other religions. I suggest checking it out, because the only way you accept someone else's beliefs is by understanding them first.

I'm going to give two quotes...nope neither if from the Bible. Other people have explained the Bible probably far more elequently then I'll ever manage.

The first if from Queer as Folk, a TV show. They had the character Ted say this to a friend who was being untrue to who he was: "I think God appreciates it even more. Because he created you in his image. At least that's what I was always taught. And since God is love and God doesn't make mistakes, then you must be exactly the way he wants you to be. And that goes for every person, every planet, every mountain, every grain of sand, every song, every tear... and every ******. We're all his, Emmett. He loves us all."

The second is from my Human Growth and Development textbook. I'm no longer in the class, but this is a current textbook:

"According to one theory, sexual orientation may be influenced by a complex prenatal process involving both hormonal and neurological factors. If the levels of sex hormones in a fetus of either sex between the second and fifth months of gestation are in the typical female range, the person is likely to be attracted to males after puberty. If the hormone levels are in the male range, the person is likely to be attracted to females. Whether and how hormonal activity may affect brain development, and whether and how differences in brain structure may affect sexual orientation have not been established, but an anatomical difference between homeosexual and heterosexual men in an area of the brain that governs sexual behavior has been reported."

~Rivulet027, also a gay Christian

Ambular

Well, in all of the 5 different schools that I have been to, we have never been allowed to do anything relating to Christmas. There were perhaps a few times when I was much younger and my grammar school would put a Christmas tree up, but eventually enough parents complained about "Christian" holidays being presented in school and they put a stop to it. That includes Easter as well. And there certainly were no Bible studies, ever. I would love to participate in them if they were offered, but it would never happen in our schools.

And the same goes for my family. There are born-again Christians, there are Catholics, there are athiests, etc. But no one tries forcing their religious beliefs on anyone else. Most of the time, the only way some of us know about each other's respective religion is because of the kind of church they happen to go to. A lot of my relatives probably don't even know I believe in God at all. Because I don't go running around preaching to everyone, trying to convert them and chastizing them for their lifestyles. I don't intrude on their personal lives. There are also homosexual members of our family - and I love them every bit as much. I don't lecture them or look down on them for who they are. Of course I don't necessarily approve of their lifestyle, but I know other members of the family who probably don't approve of mine either. But we are one big happy family who holds the utmost respect for each other's right to choose.

That said, if one of them approached me and asked what my honest feelings were, I wouldn't lie. I would tell them how I feel about it given my belief in what God says. But it wouldn't change how I feel about them as people; like I said, I'm no better, and God doesn't disfavor them any more than he might disfavor me for my sins.

I would never say that you're any more indecent than the general population for your sexuality (and I know, it's not "just about sex." That's not what I'm referring to). Everyone's indecent because we are all sinners, but I would not think that you are for the simply fact that you're attracted to a woman, nor do I think you do not belong in a "decent society."

Not that I have ever considered the cast of Queer as Folk to be eminent prophets of religious theory, but this seems extremely illogical to me.

Just because God does not make mistakes does not mean that you are "exactly the way he wants you to be." God created us, each in His image, but the choices we make in life are of our own free will. If someone decides to live a homosexual life, that is their choice, but God did not "make" them that way.

Does this mean that murderers are exactly who God wants them to be? Or people who worship the devil? Because, God did not make a mistake in creating them, either. So he must approve of their lifestyles. I am not saying God doesn't love them, because God does have everlasting love for every one that he created, but he certainly does not approve of what they are doing. Just like I still love my gay cousin, but I don't approve of her lifestyle. And I will always love my children no matter what they do, because they will always be my children, but I may disagree with the choices they make in life.

And for those who think that I am "bisexual" because I choose to have relationships with men instead of women, and who believe that no one can ever choose who they fall in love with - well, then, there really would be no such thing as sexuality at all. If we have absolutely no say in who we fall in love with (which is why you women can't resist having fallen in love with another woman at some point, and vice versa), then what is the point of declaring yourself "straight" or "gay" at all? Because, by that logic, I can be a heterosexual woman, but at any moment I could meet another woman who I just can't help but be attracted to and love their personality and decide that I should be with them. And what's to say, then, that a lesbian won't meet a man one day who is everything she could ever want in a romantic partner, and finds herself attracted to him? Neither person really wants that kind of homosexual/heterosexual relationship, because they have already designated themselves gay or straight lifestyles, but they can't help falling in love with these people. Right?

No, I don't think so.