News & Politics - Saddam in Court

**TheAngel** · 07-01-2004, 06:28 PM

I didn't see this so I thought I'd go on and start a topic since I'm sure this will be one of much heated debate on this forum. This is a news story taken from AOL.

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (July 1) -- Saddam Hussein scoffed at charges of war crimes and mass killings Thursday, making a defiant first public appearance since being hunted down seven months ago. The deposed dictator fixed the judge with a penetrating stare and declared: ''This is all a theater by Bush, the criminal.''

Dressed in a charcoal-colored, pinstriped suit jacket, Saddam - whose day in court was shown on TV in the Arab world and beyond - looked thinner and better groomed than on Dec. 13, the day U.S. troops pulled him from a hole near Tikrit.

Unaccompanied by a lawyer, he was presented with seven preliminary charges that included gassing thousands of Kurds in 1988, the 1990 invasion of Kuwait, the suppression of 1991 revolts by Kurds and Shiites, the murders of religious and political leaders and the mass displacement of Kurds in the 1980s.

Saddam was handcuffed when brought from a secret location to Camp Victory, one of his former palaces on Baghdad's western outskirts. After he arrived in an armored bus, the shackles were removed for the 26-minute hearing.

''I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq,'' he said unprompted, sitting in a chair facing the judge across a wooden railing. When asked his name, he repeated it in full: ''Saddam Hussein al-Majid, president of Iraq.''

At times, Saddam, rather than the judge, seemed in command of the hearing, firmly signaling that he be allowed to speak. He occasionally lectured the young magistrate, making his points with emphatic hand gestures.

''You know that this is all a theater by Bush, the criminal, to help him with his campaign,'' the former Iraqi president said.

He insisted that he be referred to as ''president of the Republic of Iraq'' and asked who the judge was and under what authority he was holding the hearing.

The judge, who officials have refused to identify for security reasons, said he represented the Iraqi people and acted under coalition authority.

''So you are an Iraqi representing the coalition forces?'' Saddam asked.

''No,'' the judge replied. ''I am an Iraqi representing the Iraqi judicial system.''

Speaking in strong tones, as if he was still commander in chief, the 67-year-old Saddam offered a bit of advice.

''The judicial system in Iraq always represents the will of the people,'' he said. ''You should not work according to the law of the occupying forces; these are invading forces.''

As the former dictator spoke, he stroked a neatly trimmed salt-and-pepper beard and a dark mustache, sometimes brushing his fingers across his bushy black eyebrows. At one point, he took a pen out of his coat and made notes on a piece of yellow paper.

He tried to interrupt several times, only to be cut off by the judge.

He brushed off the charges, suggesting he had immunity as Iraq's president. And he refused to sign a statement listing the accusations.

''Please allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present. ... Anyhow, when you take a procedure to bring me here again, present me with all these papers with the presence of lawyers. Why would you behave in a manner that we might call hasty later on?'' he said.

Saddam, whose mood swung during the hearing from nervousness and exasperation to contempt and defiance, even anger, appeared most agitated when Kuwait was mentioned.

''The armed forces went to Kuwait. Is it possible to raise accusations against an official figure and this figure be treated apart from the official guarantees stipulated by the constitution and the law? Where is this law upon which you are conducting investigations?

''How could Saddam be tried over Kuwait, that said it will reduce Iraqi women to 10-dinar prostitutes?'' Saddam asked, referring to himself in the third person. ''He defended Iraq's honor and revived its historical rights over those dogs.''

Calling someone a dog is a severe insult in the Muslim world, where the animals are considered unclean. At that point, the judge admonished Saddam and said he would not tolerate such language.

''I take full responsibility for my words,'' Saddam retorted.

Afterward, 11 other defendants appeared one by one to hear the charges against them. Most appeared to be tired, broken men, shadows of their former roles as masters of Iraq.

Best-known among the 11 are former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz, long Saddam's spokesman in the West; Ali Hasan al-Majid, known as ''Chemical Ali;'' and former Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan.

Aziz denied personal involvement in any of the regime's crimes, saying, ''I never killed anybody by any direct act.''

Saddam's appearance, however, overshadowed the rest of the day's proceedings and gave Iraqis their first look at him since a humiliating video showing the rumpled, tired ex-dictator submitting to a medical exam by his American captors.

Crowds of Iraqis gathered around television sets in cafes, hotel lobbies and in their homes to watch the man who dominated their lives for a generation.

In the United States, President Bush watched a televised replay of the hearing, said White House spokesman Scott McClellan, who brushed off reporters' questions about Saddam's remarks on Bush.
''I'm sure Saddam Hussein will continue to say all sorts of things,'' McClellan said. ''What's important is that Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders are going to face justice from the Iraqi people before an Iraqi court.''

In parts of Iraq that were oppressed under Saddam, there was a sense of satisfaction at the arraignment.

''He should be placed in metal cage and taken on tour of all the Iraqi cities so that the millions who have been starved, robbed, beaten, deprived and tortured by his regime can see the man responsible for their suffering,'' said Asaad Aziz, an engineer in the mostly Shiite city of Basra.

It was not immediately clear what punishment Saddam would face, but the new Iraqi government has said it wants to reinstate the death penalty, suspended under the U.S. occupation.

U.S. and Iraqi officials hope Saddam's trial - which will not take place until 2005 at least - will lay bare the atrocities of Saddam's regime and help the country recover from years of tyranny, the U.S.-led invasion and the insurgency that blossomed in its aftermath.

However, the turmoil of the past 14 months has led to some longing for the stability and order of the ousted dictatorship.

''At least Saddam provided us with security. We have seen nothing good from the Americans,'' said Odai Faleh, a worker in Ramadi, a mainly Sunni city.

For his hearing, Saddam was flown by helicopter from an undisclosed location and driven to a courtroom on a U.S. base. He was led from an armored bus escorted by two Iraqi guards and ushered through a door guarded by six more Iraqi police. The bus was accompanied by four Humvees and an ambulance.

Saddam arrived in a blue jumpsuit - the prison uniform given to regime detainees on Wednesday, when their legal custody was handed over to Iraqi authorities by the U.S. military. The former president changed into off-the-rack civilian clothes provided by authorities in an adjacent room.

Asked if he could afford a lawyer, Saddam replied with a laugh: ''The Americans say I have millions hidden in Switzerland. How can I not have the money to pay for one?''

At the end of the hearing, Saddam got up to leave. One of the uniformed Iraqi guards rushed to help him up. ''Take it easy - I'm an old man,'' Saddam told him.

07-01-04 19:58EDT

The Accusations
Saddam Hussein faces the following broad charges, with specific charges to be filed later:
1991: Suppressing Shiite and Kurd uprisings after Gulf War
1990: Invading Kuwait
1988: Gassing Kurds in Halabja (alleged victim shown left)
1986-1988: Displacing Kurds in "Anfal" campaign
1983: Killing Kurdish Barzani clan
1974: Killing religious figures
30-Year Span: Killing political activists

BabyJamesIsMine · 07-01-2004, 07:05 PM

i didnt read the whole article but i watched the news....he's still arrogant as ever.....he's lucky he's getting tried by Iraquis if it were by Americans he wouldnt stand a chance

...if i were him id be a bit more humble...how is he trying to deny stuff that he did...some stuff is like dude who are u kidding?

**TheAngel** · 07-02-2004, 06:24 AM

Yeah, but in Iraq it's a different story because there are a few, not many but a few, people that still support him. If they believe they can get him back into power they'll try anything. I have a feeling that Saddam is gone though, whether from the trial or from a sniper's bullet. I have a feeling these court hearings could last for a while though.

Anabela · 07-02-2004, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Unaccompanied by a lawyer, he was presented with seven preliminary (...)

Shouldn't he have a lawyer?

**TheAngel** · 07-02-2004, 08:47 AM

Remember, this trial's in Iraq, they do things differently there.

BabyJamesIsMine · 07-02-2004, 09:31 AM

supposedly he has lawyers but they werent there or watever and his supporters were saying they needed to have let his lawyers advise him more 4 taking him to court ....

n e r b l e · 07-03-2004, 04:48 PM

he can have lawyers if he wants (there are several standing by the take the position) however there's debate that he may decide to defend himself.

BabyJamesIsMine · 07-03-2004, 07:38 PM

let him have fun doing that

**TheAngel** · 07-03-2004, 10:56 PM

So, what do you all think will happen. There is a chance that he will get off scott free. Not a big one but still. What do you think the outcome will be?

Abisnail · 07-04-2004, 03:41 PM

The trouble is that executing him would elevate him to the status of a martyr among the people who are still loyal to him and it would probably egg them on even more.

I don't really think that there is any punishment which he deserves because considering how many evil things he's done I don't think executing him or locking him up for the rest of his life would be enough.

But I do believe that everyone gets what they deserve in the end, karma I guess you would call it, and even though he's defiant now and still thinks he's the "President of Iraq" none of that will mean anything in the end. After all, whether you believe in an afterlife or not, being president of somewhere doesn't count for anything either in heaven or in oblivion, whichever turns out to be true.

In Fair Verona · 07-13-2004, 05:05 PM

I agree with Abisnail, although I just don't believe in the death penalty, even for Saddam. I think locking him away in a little room with a little window for the rest of his life would be torturous enough without having to kill him.

Btw, to shed some light on the event:

Rock Paper Saddam

Drekkan · 07-14-2004, 12:45 AM

This absolutely disgusts me. Saddam wil get a trial, then he'll be shot. There's no other possible outcome (ok, maybe life in prison where he'll be stabbed to death). Why? Because it's impossible for him to receive a fair trial in Iraq. All the judges in his trial are former exiles. They hate him personally, and he attacked them and their families when they were in Iraq. They were handpicked by the US, and will read a verdict that's been handpicked by the US. The trial has none of the safeguards for the defendent that a fair trial requires.

Rather, Saddam should be handed over to the ICC/ICJ for trial, much as Milosevic has been. Only there could he possibly receive a fair trial. The reason why he's not being handed over? Justice? Nope; fear of the verdict. Saddam, like another well-known war criminal (Ariel Sharon), insulated himself from the massacres he carried out. As far as I've read, there's no direct documentation running between him and the terrible actions carried out. He could plead complete ignorance. Like I said, it worked for Sharon back in the 80s, why can't it work for Saddam now?

UnsilentMajorty · 07-14-2004, 05:26 AM

As much as I don't like Saddam...

This whole thing is a Kangaroo-Court (show trial) to help Bush get re-elected and justify the U.S. Invasion of Iraq.

Like Drekkan said... His fate is/has already been decided.

Instead of a show trial, why not just broadcast his public execution for all the world to see... Because that is ultimately where this is headed.

This isn't justice.

This is a feebale attempt at the Right Wing (in the U.S.) to justify why we invaded Iraq and why our honorable brave men and women of our armed forces are still being killed with no end in sight in terms of when -- IF -- We are ever going to pull out since the "mission" is officially "over"

This whole thing disgusts me.

Saddam may have been a terrible person and committed horrendous atrocities...

But guess what?

As arrogant or isolationalist as this sounds...

His atrocities were aimed at his OWN people in his OWN country and more importantly were never directed at the U.S. -- And there was NEVER any indication he ever intended those kinds of action against the U.S. -- So that gives us no right to go in and invade him in the name of "pre-emptive" action and "National Security" because of 9/11.

Osama Bin Laden attacked the U.S. and not Saddam Hussein.

Osama did NOT seek asylum in Iraq because he and Saddam have radically different views in terms of Isalm and Saddam would never allow him into the country (if he found out) and people (in general) need to get this through their heads for the sake of knowing the reality of what is going on.

It's not like some James Bond movie where Osama and Hussien and all the other world dictators sit around some table in some underground bunker twirling their mustaches plotting to destroy the U.S.

Enigma, I.C. · 07-15-2004, 06:04 PM

I think a trial could turn out to be very embarassing for the US, especially if they bring up the gassing of the Kurds, which the US was complicit in by its silence when the kiling too place. American support for Iraq during the war with Iran was complete and we turned a rather large and expedient blind eye to atrocities for the sake of wearing down Tehran. It's kind of ironic that the US (through its Iraqi surrogates) wants to put Hussein on trial now for things he did with our complicity.

Jay · 07-16-2004, 08:43 AM

this bastard should have been dead long time ago without trial


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