[Yellow Mustang Girl]

Originally Posted by TheAngel (View Post) It's lucky the gun jammed. From what I heard, the gun he had was a Glock. I shoot a Glock. You can drop that thing in mud for a week, take it out, put in a magazine, and it'll shoot like the day you bought it. From what I heard, he got off four shots before the gun jammed. If it hadn't jammed, there would have been a lot more dead people in that church.

I think God must have been looking over the congregation

[TheAngel]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mustang Girl (View Post) I think God must have been looking over the congregation

Despite my absence of belief in a higher power, I agree that this was a very rare event. Like I said, Glocks do not fail, that's why most cops carry them, unless they have a special attachment to other manufacturers. It's not lucky that people were injured and killed, but it's very lucky that it wasn't a lot worse.

[sunnykerr]

Yeah, Glocks don't fail but this one did... Totally makes sense.

[4N6 DNA]

Banner and related threads for the OP.

Catholics are Christians
Catholic coloring book warns US kids of pedophile priests

[sunnykerr]

Russia’s Jewish Community Fears for Its Future, Foreign Missions in Jeopardy Moscow, Russia – Russia’s Jewish community is concerned for its future. “It is a very depressing signal for us,” said Berel Lazar, chief rabbi of Russia. “Jews have begun to fear for the future of their community in Russia for the first time in many years.” What concerned Lazar (pictured here with Russian President Medvedev) was the deportation of Rabbi Zvi Hershcovich of Stavropol and Rabbi Yisroel Silberstein of Primorye. The two clergymen are US citizens in Russia on a tourist visa where they performed missionary activities without the proper residency papers for anyone entering the Russian Federation for religious purposes. Both rabbis said that without their presence certain Jewish communities would be without guidance. “The case is greatly complicated by the fact that the list of specialties for receiving workers' visas does not include clergy,” the Federal Jewish National and Cultural Authority said. From 1998 to 2003, 30 religious leaders were thrown out of Russia, Jews but also Catholics and Protestants. The issue of visas for foreign clergymen has been highly controversial. With Putin in the Kremlin and Aleksij II at the helm of the Russian Orthodox Church visa, visa renewals have been a tool in the hands of Russian authorities to rid the Russian federation of unwanted missionaries, whatever their religion. The year 2002 was the annus horribilis when several Catholic priests were expelled on a ambiguous charge of proselytism. They included the parish priests of Vladimir (Fr Stefano Caprio), Jaroslavl' (Fr Stanislaw Krajnjak), and Rostov-on-Don (Fr Eduard Mackewicz), plus the bishop of the Siberian diocese of Saint Joseph in Irkutsk, Mgr Jerzy Mazur. Despite claims by President Medvedev of not wanting to interfere in religious affairs, his decisions to accentuate the connection between the Kremlin and the Orthodox Church and some actions by the Justice Ministry towards religion and minority Christian groups have raised fears that it might be like 2002 all over. There are fears that actions designed to buttress the legitimate primacy of Orthodoxy might restrict religious freedom for other communities of believers. A few days after the deportation of Zilbershtein and Hershcovich, on 12 March, the Russian Justice Ministry announced a draft bill to regulate missionary activities. To “begin with, we shall define the term of missionary activity,” said Sergej Miluškin, head of the Non-commercial Organisations Department at the Russian Justice Ministry. The bill shall also stipulate the conditions for missionary activity and the rules of administrative liability for unlawful missionary outreach. The new bill will address situations like those of Zilbershtein and Hershcovich. Foreigners who preach in Russia on a tourist visa should expect deportation for violating the immigration law and a big fine, he said.

WorldWide Religious News-Russia’s Jewish community fears for its future, foreign missions in jeopardy

I hope religious freedom is preserved. Either way, though, this will be a good indicator of which direction Medvedev's government intends to take, democracy or tolitarianism.

[Callace]

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post) Well, I would argue that what is good arises from what is true.

It does but so does what is bad. And I think there perhaps also can be good and bad illusions. which is good bc they allow you to forget about the truth. or bad for that reason.

I don't know. It's really weird trying to approach my faith with an intellectual perspective. It's like trying to describe the way air looks, or what music tastes like.

I understand, I think. Matters of the heart are not that easy to deal with in mind's way. But I think it is great that you are trying

I do think that religion expresses the true about a reality, but it's not necessarily the physical one, but rather the spiritual one. So it's like comparing apples and oranges. Different, but still connected.

Tht brings us back to my question of what is the basis for religious reality. IMO religion is a strange mix between two sets of "realities"

In some way, it reminds me of fantasy-literature. a construction of a world consistant partially of ordinary, worldly phenomena, and patially of the supernatural. Written in a book that say it is so.

But unlike fantasy literature, religion claims to be describing our world, the world I live in. I love fantasy literature. But if I am to accept the existance of spirits, demons, angels and God in my world, then surely there must be some way to trace them? some signs in the world around us that they are there?

Good values are probably an aspect of religion but, like you say, you don't need religion to have good values. I don't really fancy myself being a spokesperson for all things religion, especially with regards to values, truth and good, since there is such a wide variety of perspectives and approaches in the world of religions. All I know is what I believe and what I know. For instance, I believe, to the depth of my being, in karma. I've seen it in action. I have seen how the universe has brought me, repeatedly, the lessons I needed to learn when I needed to learn them. So, you know, a guy commits a horrible crime, I truly believe the universe will take care of him. I don't know how. It's not for me to worry about. It doesn't mean I think he should get away with it. I believe in consequences. A person commits a crime, there are laws, there is punishment. I believe in the rule of law, too.

That is a very comfortable thought. I wish there was a great force of the usiverse (The Powers That Be, which are mentioned in some fantasy shows, or the deities of religions or whatever) that could make sure that what's right gets rewarded ans what's wrong corrected etc. But I have not experienced it that way. There are good and bad coincidents, there are the regulations (legal, social and others) that are put in place by humans, and beyond that, I have yet to find something The universe has shown itself to be atoms and magnetism, energy and dark matter etc. But in it's own physical way, it does of course give consequences to our actions (burn lots of oil, and release a lot of gasses into the atmosphere, and you will get global warming, sea levels rising, extra hurricanes etc)

That's all I'm saying. It is quite possible to believe that there is a great plan while still being a functional member of society, without looking to a book somewhere to provide all answers, without co-opting one's brain.

yes it is but the questions that then comes naturally (to me anyhow) is where this great plan comes from, and how did it come about? on how does it apply to us?

[sunnykerr]

Originally Posted by callace (View Post) It does but so does what is bad.

Well, that’s certainly true.

Yet, I could argue that, from a spiritual perspective, what is “bad” (which, honestly, is a matter of perspective and, I feel, shouldn’t be discussed as an absolute) arises from occasions where we don’t act in line with our “true/real” selves, i.e. souls.

And, even then, mistakes we make along the way, hurtful and disruptive though they may be, help us learn and move along and evolve. Hopefully, anyway.

I don’t know. I find that “good” and “bad”, for the most part, are a weird dichotomy to judge human action and experience by. Obviously, certain stuff falls pretty radically at one extreme or the other. But, for the most part, I find most things are mostly neutral, a little bit of both.

But maybe that’s just me.

Originally Posted by callace (View Post) I understand, I think. Matters of the heart are not that easy to deal with in mind's way. But I think it is great that you are trying

Oh, matters of the heart I could describe. I know my own feelings and emotions pretty well, even when they’re all muddled and confused.

Matters of soul? That’s another thing entirely.

Originally Posted by callace (View Post) That brings us back to my question of what is the basis for religious reality. IMO religion is a strange mix between two sets of "realities" In some way, it reminds me of fantasy-literature. a construction of a world consistant partially of ordinary, worldly phenomena, and partially of the supernatural. Written in a book that say it is so. But unlike fantasy literature, religion claims to be describing our world, the world I live in. I love fantasy literature. But if I am to accept the existence of spirits, demons, angels and God in my world, then surely there must be some way to trace them? some signs in the world around us that they are there?

I don’t know. I don’t see any contradiction in “mixing realities.” After all, a lot of things we experience we experience in more than one way. Some events are physical and emotional. Some events are physical and psychological and emotional. Some events are cerebral and psychological…

To me, saying that we also live a spiritual life isn’t that much of a stretch.

Of course, if I was looking for supernatural creatures, it would certainly demand more in terms of suspension of disbelief. My personal spiritual beliefs are pretty simple. There is a God. I am a soul. That’s essentially it, in a nutshell. And I see evidence of that every day myself, but I suppose it goes back to that whole thing of: “To those who do not believe, no proof is enough; to those who believe, no proof is necessary,”

You really shouldn’t have to try this hard to believe in something. If you do, you do. If you don’t, you don’t. Either way, it’s okay.

Originally Posted by callace (View Post) That is a very comfortable thought. I wish there was a great force of the usiverse (The Powers That Be, which are mentioned in some fantasy shows, or the deities of religions or whatever) that could make sure that what's right gets rewarded ans what's wrong corrected etc. But I have not experienced it that way. There are good and bad coincidents, there are the regulations (legal, social and others) that are put in place by humans, and beyond that, I have yet to find something The universe has shown itself to be atoms and magnetism, energy and dark matter etc. But in it's own physical way, it does of course give consequences to our actions (burn lots of oil, and release a lot of gasses into the atmosphere, and you will get global warming, sea levels rising, extra hurricanes etc)

Well, I don’t know what to tell you on that front. I see evidence of that greater force every day myself.

Of course, human actions… are human. That’s the beauty of them. It would very hard to evolve spiritually if everything was all wonderful all the time. We make mistakes, we hurt ourselves and one another, we take detours that create a lot of damage. It’s not pretty. It’s certainly not enjoyable. In fact, a lot of it sucks pure and simple.

But it doesn’t mean there isn’t a greater plan. At least, not for me. It just means none of us is perfect.

Originally Posted by callace (View Post) yes it is but the questions that then comes naturally (to me anyhow) is where this great plan comes from, and how did it come about? on how does it apply to us?

And, see, that brings to my mind the question of, why does it matter? I mean, I believe in a bigger plan (so to speak), but you don’t have to. Why would you have to? Even if there is one, how does that change your life?

To me, it’s like wondering why one person was born in Canada while the other was born in Norway. You can get lost in tracking the answer to that question if you want, but it won’t change the facts in the end: One person was born in Canada while the other was born in Norway. They both still have to go on with their lives.

[Yellow Mustang Girl]

Any other Christian news as of late? Or religious news?

[Cristofle]

Randomness that vaguely connects to me Professor and best-selling author Bart Ehrman was recently on the Colbert Report promoting his new book Jesus, Interrupted.

Bart Ehrman | April 9th | ColbertNation.com

I'm a religious studies major at University of North Carolina at Charlotte. He's at UNC Chapel Hill. He's good friends with the head of my department, Dr. James Tabor (author of The Jesus Dynasty for anyone who's heard of it) and has written a couple of my textbooks. Very interesting guy!

And of course, Colbert always makes for a fun interview.

[Callace]

I love the Colbert Report. He's always funny.

[sunnykerr]

Florida Church Seeks Attention With 'No More Christians' Campaign Crestview, USA - A Florida church is trying to persuade people to return to worship with a provocative campaign that has raised a few eyebrows around town. The Mosaic Church of Crestview, a non-denominational Christian church, used the slogan "No More Christians" to spark conversation and attract the attention of people who have grown lackadaisical in their religious practice, the Crestview News Bulletin reported. The campaign advertises a series of discussions with names like "Why you should be an atheist instead of a Christian" and "Why you should be a Muslim instead of a Christian." Mosaic Church Pastor James Ross said the discussions are meant to "creatively and aggressively try to show (people) that God loves them so much that even though they are still sinners, Christ died for them," the News Bulletin reported. "We were really trying to catch the attention of people who are searching," Ross told the newspaper. Unfortunately, Ross told the newspaper, the signs have also drawn negative attention.

WorldWide Religious News-Florida Church Seeks Attention With 'No More Christians' Campaign

Well, yeah...

So I'm not a Christian. So there's a chance I have the wrong approach here.

But doesn't the saying go that you attract more bees with honey?

I mean, what kind of a sales pitch is it to say, "Hey, you're all sinners, so let's talk about that, huh? You should be in church. Because you're a sinner."

I understand how the belief goes. I would just hope that people trying to get other people to come back to their faith would use a more moderate approach.

I don't know. I've always seen faith and religious as a deeply personal thing, between the person and God. So it's very strange to me to see any organized religion use such radical "recruiting" (for a lack of a better word) techniques.

[Gods Mouthpiece]

Sunnykerr
the answer to your query is...

Jude 1:22
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."

In translation it means, christians save some people with love and compassion and others through fear (sin, hell, Judgement). Whatever the situation presents we are to have discernment to which way is appropiate.

[TheAngel]

Originally Posted by Gods Mouthpiece (View Post) Sunnykerr the answer to your query is... Jude 1:22 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh." In translation it means, christians save some people with love and compassion and others through fear (sin, hell, Judgement). Whatever the situation presents we are to have discernment to which way is appropiate.

Gee, that sounds kind of like an abusive relationship to me. You don't agree with me so I'm going to scare the crap out of you. Besides, all that's based on a hypothetical situation that this stuff actually exists. I can't help but think that anyone that has to frighten someone into believing something probably isn't the best way to do it. It's like forcing someone to stay in a gang through fear.

[Cristofle]

Well, this is...ironic.

Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - Churchgoers more likely to back torture, survey finds � - Blogs from CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new analysis. More than half of people who attend services at least once a week — 54 percent — said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than 6 in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only 4 in 10 of them did. The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants, and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small.

[sunnykerr]

Originally Posted by Gods Mouthpiece (View Post) In translation it means, christians save some people with love and compassion and others through fear (sin, hell, Judgement). Whatever the situation presents we are to have discernment to which way is appropiate.

Well, thank you for that.

I have to admit that I'm still very confused about that. If you don't know who you're addressing, than how do you know in advance which attitude to take?

I mean, I understand how one situation may call for compassion and another for discipline, but if you're trying to interest people in coming to church... how do you know which strategy they'll respond to best?

Cristofle Maybe this taps into the whole "saving people through fear" thing?