[sunnykerr]

http://www.fanforum.com/f117/catholi...sts-62821445/]

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[Cristofle]

Here's a piece I just read relating to the Brazilian Catholic Church.

Brazil girl, alleged rape victim, aborts twins - Americas- msnbc.com

RIO DE JANEIRO - A 9-year-old girl who was carrying twins, allegedly after being raped by her stepfather, underwent an abortion Wednesday despite complaints from Brazil's Roman Catholic church. Police said the stepfather has been jailed since last week. Abortion is illegal in Brazil, but judges can make exceptions if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has no chance of survival. Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the 15-week-old pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 80-pound girl. "She is very small. Her uterus doesn't have the ability to hold one, let alone two children," Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper. But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section. "It's the law of God: Do not kill. We consider this murder," Miranda said in comments reported by O Globo. Calls to Miranda were not immediately returned. Brazil is home to more Catholics than any other nation.

And what would it have been had that poor child died after being legally forced to carry the pregnancy to term? I love the "have a C-section" ignorance. The doctor didn't say she couldn't deliver it (although I have no doubt she couldn't have)- he said her uterus was literally too small to even carry one baby, let alone two. That has nothing to do with a C-section.

[Callace]

Good point!! She had no way of being able to carry two children! She was a child herself!! It makes me so mad when people want to force that kind of impossible feats on others, and especially when it is for no other reason than religion

[Yellow Mustang Girl]

Originally Posted by sunnykerr (View Post) No iPods for Lent, bishops urge - Faith- msnbc.com I thought this was a very interesting story. Have any of you given up anything for Lent? Or maybe as a New Year's resolution? I'm not Catholic, but I've been trying to make healthier choices for myself during (eating better and walking more) this Lent period. Regardless of one's faith, I do think it's an interesting idea, the concept of making conscious choices to try and better one's life for a given period of time. First of all, the fact that there's an end date to it does wonders for the motivation. And, I don't know, it's nice to think deeper thoughts every so often.

I don't observe Lent, but I have a few friends who are giving up various things for Lent

[vc318]

"It's the law of God: Do not kill. We consider this murder," Miranda said in comments reported by O Globo.

So let's forget the fact that this S.O.B. took this girl's very essence and has likely destroyed every part of herself for the rest of her natural life! I doubt this innocent girl woke up one morning and said, "Gosh, I'd love to know what it's like to be knocked up at nine flipped years old!" My nine year-old students can't even remember to bring their homework to school and yet we should expect babies to have babies. Just plain insane.

[sunnykerr]

Never mind that the pregnancy could have plain killed her. Pregnancy can be seriously dangerous unless health standards are observed. And, let's face it, even when that happens, it takes a toll on the mother's health. Or, at least, it can.

I respect people's right to be against abortion, especially when they base it on such an appreciation for life. But I do think we're too quick to forget that the mother is also a life to be valued. And, in this case, quite a young one as well. This little girl needed guidance and protection. Not judgment.

[Callace]

Yeah that comes to me as a weird trait of religious reasoning. They are fierce vigourous defenders of the life of the unborn (even the doomed embryo, as we saw in the stem cell discussion.) But the lives of older, actually born humans is not that important? They say they wont accept this abortion bc of their respect for life. But what about the mother's life?

It is the same thing with stem cells. They cant save the lifes of the leftover embryos anyway, so why fuss about that? But the lives of all the people wh can be saved by stem cell research is not worth protecting??

I think their argument that "life must be defended, no matter what" also loses it's credibility by their often passionate defence of the death penalty. If you think life is so important that it should not be taken under any circumstances, then why actively advocate the killing of people convicted of serious crimes???

[vc318]

If you think life is so important that it should not be taken under any circumstances, then why actively advocate the killing of people convicted of serious crimes???

Well said. People can't just take the part they like and not look at the whole picture.

[Callace]

Thank you That is one of the things i like the least about religion. The constant hypocrisy. It you take an unconditional stand on something in one situation, like "life is so important that abortion should never be allowed!" then surely the same thing must go in other contexts too, like finding life so sacred that execution should never be allowed either? But no, the protection of life is clearly not all that important then

[sunnykerr]

Well, it's certainly the ugly side of some religious discourse, but I do think that a lot of very religious people are way more common-sensical about it than we think. They just don't make the news as much because moderation is not as interesting as fringe extremists. A lot of religious people are actually quite respectful of other people and of their life experience.

There are plenty of people of opposed stem-cell research who also oppose the death penalty because they do see it all as honouring human life. For instance, the Roman Catholic Church tends to be very anti-death penalty. It's a shame that the Brazilian Catholic Church couldn't support this little girl's right to not only her life but to freedom from her abuser. But, presumably, they would also oppose the death penalty.

[Callace]

I know that a whole lot of religious people are quite rational. I am not critizing religious people in general, just religion as a phenomenon. People luckily usually have a lot of common sense, but religion doesnt get them there. Scripture itself gives the somewhat self contradicting message theat you shall not kill, but still prescribes the death penalty for a whole lot of offences.

[Cristofle]

For instance, the Roman Catholic Church tends to be very anti-death penalty. It's a shame that the Brazilian Catholic Church couldn't support this little girl's right to not only her life but to freedom from her abuser. But, presumably, they would also oppose the death penalty.

The Catholic Church is anti death penalty, but speaking for my own experience as a non Catholic in Catholic school, I don't know a single Catholic who was even a fraction as concerned about the death penalty as they were about abortion. Abortion dominated our Morality and Justice/Service classes- the death penalty was a blip on the radar. We had monthly school-mandatory assemblies on abortion- I can't recall one about the death penalty. Abortion dominated our "Teen Star" (I guess you could call it sex ed although it wasn't what anyone who went to public school would consider sexual education) classes. And in our 2000 mock election, Bush won our school mock election (where faculty and staff voted as well) by about 90%, even though Republicans are as for the death penalty as they are AGAINST abortion. The Catholic Church does say that to be pro-life involves three things in EQUAL MEASURE: abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia. But you would NEVER know from any Catholic I know or how they taught us in school. You'd think abortion is the only one that matters. The hypocrisy of it tended to bother me.

[TheAngel]

Originally Posted by Cristofle (View Post) The Catholic Church is anti death penalty, but speaking for my own experience as a non Catholic in Catholic school, I don't know a single Catholic who was even a fraction as concerned about the death penalty as they were about abortion. Abortion dominated our Morality and Justice/Service classes- the death penalty was a blip on the radar. We had monthly school-mandatory assemblies on abortion- I can't recall one about the death penalty. Abortion dominated our "Teen Star" (I guess you could call it sex ed although it wasn't what anyone who went to public school would consider sexual education) classes. And in our 2000 mock election, Bush won our school mock election (where faculty and staff voted as well) by about 90%, even though Republicans are as for the death penalty as they are AGAINST abortion. The Catholic Church does say that to be pro-life involves three things in EQUAL MEASURE: abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia. But you would NEVER know from any Catholic I know or how they taught us in school. You'd think abortion is the only one that matters. The hypocrisy of it tended to bother me.

This is one thing I can actually understand though. The argument is that a bad person has chosen to live that way. If they do something that brings about the death penalty it's their fault, whereas children are innocent and to abort a baby is, in their minds, the death of an innocent child. I don't agree with this argument, I figure, if you're going to be for one or against one you shouldn't rank them based on individual preference, but I get it.

[Cristofle]

That's directly contradicting Catholic doctrine, though. I can understand the sentiment, although for me it's actually the opposite (I'm more uncomfortable with the death penalty than I am with abortion- I can't say I know for sure when life begins, and I DO know that other religions specifically contradict that it begins at the moment of conception. But there's no doubt that a person, no matter how horrible, who is being sentenced to death IS a person, is a life. And we have made mistakes. We have put innocent people to death. There's almost never "beyond a SHADOW of a doubt" certainty of their guilt, and I don't know if I can accept that the death of a thousand guilty people makes up for killing one innocent person. And that's without all the blatant racism that's involved with the US execution system). But Catholics will say in one breath that they have to accept all Catholic doctrine, and then in the next act like abortion is a more important issue than the death penalty. The term "pro life" does not only mean abortion. You are not pro-life in the definition of the term if you only oppose abortion.

[TheAngel]

Originally Posted by Cristofle (View Post) That's directly contradicting Catholic doctrine, though. I can understand the sentiment, although for me it's actually the opposite (I'm more uncomfortable with the death penalty than I am with abortion- I can't say I know for sure when life begins, and I DO know that other religions specifically contradict that it begins at the moment of conception. But there's no doubt that a person, no matter how horrible, who is being sentenced to death IS a person, is a life. And we have made mistakes. We have put innocent people to death. There's almost never "beyond a SHADOW of a doubt" certainty of their guilt, and I don't know if I can accept that the death of a thousand guilty people makes up for killing one innocent person. And that's without all the blatant racism that's involved with the US execution system). But Catholics will say in one breath that they have to accept all Catholic doctrine, and then in the next act like abortion is a more important issue than the death penalty. The term "pro life" does not only mean abortion. You are not pro-life in the definition of the term if you only oppose abortion.

No, I totally agree with you there, I'm just saying that that's generally the party line. I think people feed themselves that line to make their contradiction more acceptable, to themselves and others.