[ceilirose]

Hey all..here's the new thread. I'm terrible at thread titles so if anyone has a better one just let me know.

Here's the link to the old thread:

http://www.fanforum.com/forums/showt...threadid=18354

This thread is a safe zone for all of us on the left side of the political spectrum. The general board rules apply.

Unsilent Majorty and Jerry D had two eloquent posts at the end of the old thread. Maybe they can bring them over to this thread so it can start off on a good note.

Note to Mods - please close the old thread when you get a chance. Thanks!

[UnsilentMajorty]

Per Ms. Celirose's request:

Original Post Date: 9/11/04

[Jerry D posted a political cartoon in which Bush runs against and lambasts Jesus for re-election]

Jerry D



Seriously, though, this shows the "false piuty" -- As coined by Ron Reagan Jr. -- That the Extreme Christian Right keeps using to gain support for the voters who are simply voting for Bush based on his stance on relgious issues alone (like Fetal Stem Cell Research and Same Sex Marriage).

Actress Meryll Streep also commented that she can't believe how Bush uses "God" to both scare and invigorate the opposition and his supporters because she said, "So. Exactly which bomb would Jesus have dropped on the children of Iraq?"

Got love liberal Hollywood

------

JW77

I've read your rebuttal and I want to comment on some things (in general), but first, since you wanted facts about on where all this supposed job loss and failing economy is coming from, I've compiled a list -- complete with source foot notes -- For you and everyone (regardless of poltical party) to persue:

Jobs 2,931,000 Number of jobs lost in the private sector since Bush took office.1 135,000 Average number of jobs created monthly under every President since Truman.2 -79,189 Average number of jobs created monthly under Bush.1 2,447,000 Number of people who have become unemployed since Bush took office.1 37 percent Increase in the unemployment rate since Bush took office.1 4.1 percent Unemployment rate when Bush took office in January 2001.1 5.6 percent Unemployment rate in March 2004.1 8,170,000 Total number of unemployed Americans.1 675,000 Number of Americans experiencing long-term unemployment (27 weeks or more) when Bush took office in January 2001.1 1,871,000 Number of Americans suffering long-term unemployment in March 2004.1 177 percent Increase in long-term unemployment under Bush.1 11.8 percent Percentage of consumers who believe jobs are plentiful.3 760,000 Number of workers who have lost their unemployment insurance since December 2002.4 Ballooning Deficits $5.6 trillion Baseline surplus for the 10-year period for FY 2002-2011, as projected by the Congressional Budget Office when Bush took office in January 2001.5 $5.2 trillion Budget deficit over next 10 years if Bush's 2005 budget proposal is enacted.6 $2.4 trillion Amount Bush's budget will raid from the Social Security and Medicare trust funds over the next 10 years.6 $478 billion Budget deficit for 2004 as predicted by CBO, if Bush' s proposals are enacted.6 $188 billion Amount Bush's budget deficit for 2004 exceeds the highest budget deficit in history, which was posted in 1992 by Bush's father.6 Bush's 2003 "Jobs and Growth" Plan $2.2 trillion Ten-year cost of Bush's proposed tax cuts including additional costs for interest on the national debt.7 32.4 percent Percent of tax cut for the top 1 percent of wage earners under the Bush "growth" plan.8 8.5 percent Percent of tax cuts for the bottom 60 percent of wage earners under the Bush "growth" plan.8 64 million Number of taxpayers (48 percent) who receive $100 or less under the Bush "growth" plan.9 $30,127 Average tax cut for the top 1 percent of taxpayers under the Bush "growth" plan.9 $289 Average tax cut for the middle 20 percent of taxpayers under the Bush "growth" plan.9 $4-5 billion Amount Bush tax proposal would cost states.10 1 million Number of taxpayers the Alternative Minimum Tax affected in 1999.11 36 million Number of taxpayers the Alternative Minimum Tax will affect in 2010 because of Bush's tax cuts and his failure to address the AMT.11 Lower Income, Rising Costs 1.1 percent Decrease in real median household income in 2002.12 10 percent Increase in bankruptcies since Bush took office.13 1,625,213 Number of consumers who filed for bankruptcy in 2003.13 24 percent Drop in consumer confidence since Bush took office.14 50 percent Increase in out-of-pocket health care costs for workers since Bush took office.15 14 percent Increase in the cost of job-based health insurance in 2003; highest rate in 13 years.15 8.7 percent Increase in the cost of the 10 most-used prescription drugs in 2003.16 61 percent Percent of employers who cited rising drug costs as a major cause of premium increases in 2003.15 11.5 percent Increase in gas prices since 2000.17 49 Number of states that increased tuition at their public colleges and universities in 2003. State budget cuts fueled by the Bush recession have forced colleges to hike tuitions and fees-threatening access to higher education for low-income students.18 35 percent Increase in tuition and fees at four-year public institutions since Bush took office, adjusted for inflation.19 Sources: 1Bureau of Labor Statistics, 3/04; 2House Appropriations Committee Minority Staff, 3/04; 3Conference Board, 3/04; 4Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, 2/25/04; 5Congressional Budget Office, Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2002-2011, 1/01; 6Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 2/1/04; CBO, An Analysis of Bush's Budgetary Proposals for Fiscal Year 2005, 3/04; 7Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 1/30/04, 1/21/04; 8CTJ Fact Sheet, 1/8/03; 9CTJ Fact Sheet, 2/3/03; 10CBPP Fact Sheet, 1/10/03; 11Brookings Institute, Tax Policy Center, The AMT: Out of Control, 9/18/02; New York Times, 1/10/03; 12U.S. Census Bureau, "Money Income in the United States: 2002"; 13American Bankruptcy Institute, 3/04; 14Conference Board, 3/04; 15Kaiser Family Foundation, Employer Health Benefits Survey 2000 and 2003; 16AdvancePCS, 8/25/03; 17CNN.com, 2/23/04; 18Associated Press, 8/25/03; 19College Board, College Costs 2003

To be fair, I don't know if these facts take into consideration 9/11 and its adverse effects on the economy...

However, some of the years are clearly marked which means any impact it would have had in say 2003 would have obviously been greater in 2001 and so on and so forth.

RE: Why I said Bush's Policies are Wrong...

Specifically, I do sight the invasion of Iraq on the basis that it sets a very dangerous presedence not only for the United States a superpower, but for OTHER countries to just do whatever the Hell THEY want to as well.

The U.N. was created right after WWII as a safeguard to PREVENT another catastrophic war of that scale from ever happening again.

The basis for that was that when the Axis started to take power... There wasn't anyone for the opressed nations in Europe to turn to for help as far as an international community went.

Also, I am well aware that this country did NOT want to get involved in WWII -- even as unrealistic an ideal that probably was -- until Pearl Harbor happened...

But the big difference between what happened then and what is happening now -- Since 9/11 (ironcally, three years to the date) -- Is that the U.S. is potentially thumbing its nose at the international community by ignoring the U.N. and what its main purpose is for and that is so no one nation can start to amass global dominance and become the next Hilter or Stalin.

I know there are many who believe that the U.N. is ineffective and that it always falls upon the U.S. to intervene -- like in Kosovo; Somalia; Greneda, etc -- BUT the real reason that is "falls upon our shoulders" is because of the fact we have the resources and manpower as the world's most powerful military to actually make a difference whenever we are called.

And as corny as this sounds, with great power comes great responsibility.

I know there are those who believe America should "lead first and ask questions later"...

However, the big issue these people seem to forget though is that any good leader worth their salt should be RESPECTED and not FEARED or tolerated -- As the U.S. currently is by a LOT of world leaders/countries since the invsaion of Iraq and how Bush has taken years of good will and diplomatic policy and thrown in out the window in favor of what he calls "frontier justice"

That is my main reason for saying that Bush's foreign policies are "wrong" because there will come a time -- maybe not in my lifetime, although, that usually is the case -- When the U.S. may NEED other countries (not just for oil) and they are going to have every right to say, "screw you!" which, again, is not how you survive or operate in the global community in my opinion.

This also is another contributing factor to terrorism in its most basic form.

I think whenever we hear the word "terrorism" we always think of this fateful day, three years ago...

When the REAL causes of terrorism and why countries resort to those kinds of actions starts and stems from how superpowers like the U.S. treat them in both foreign relations and especially, global economic relations (business).

Like I said before, everything is tied to everything else and one of those things -- How George Bush and the administration conduct foreign relations -- Is a big part of that "puzzle" as to how to make the world either a safer place where America is respected out of genuine respect, or feared because we might send our Marines to invade a country that doesn't "do as we please".

Which would you rather choose?

[Jerry D]

Here's my post from the previous thread:

Wow, UnsilentMajorty, that was a brilliant post. The figures you posted are truly frightening, and it really illustrates the slippery slope that Bush is leading us down. I can speak first hand of how outsourcing affects lives, because I work for a company that had a manufacturing plant in California, and they closed that plant down and moved part of it to Mexico, and part of it to China, and a lot of good hardworking people lost their jobs, and I always live in fear of losing my job someday as well if they ever decide to outsource what I do.

What frightens and angers me about Bush the most is how he squandered all the sympathy that this country garnered after 9/11 with his reckless and arrogant foreign policy, and I will always believe that it was unnecessary to invade Iraq. To be sure, Saddam was a brutal dictator, but he posed no immediate threat to the United States, and I still think that Bush invaded Iraq due to a personal vendetta that he had against Saddam for allegedly threatening his father’s life. I think that Bush expected a quick and easy victory in Iraq, but that very obviously isn’t the case, and he’s now plunged us into a Vietnam like quagmire with no end in site. I’ll be honest with you, though, I did believe that Saddam was hiding weapons of mass destruction, but I think that diplomatic measures should have been pressed more fully to put pressure on Saddam before Bush launched this war without garnering any support from the U.N. and all the countries that had supported his father in the last Gulf War.

I’m in my forties, and I’m somewhat atypical for someone my age, I feel, because many people my age are conservatives, and as such, I get a lot of e-mails from my conservative friends with really vicious Anti-Kerry diatribes, and in some ways, those e-mails anger me, but they also illustrate to me how low the conservatives will go to denigrate someone they obviously consider a threat. I know that mud slinging works both ways and it happens in every election, but it seems to me that this election year is particularly vicious from what I’ve been reading and hearing.

I honestly don’t know who’s going to win this election, because everything still seems to be in a dead heat right now, but I shudder to think of what will happen to this country if Bush gets reelected.

[Avatar]

Hell has just frozen over ... I just found an almost objective, slightly Bush-critical report at FOX News, here.

I'm officially in shock now.

[migamoo]

So every year the weekend after labor day, the town i live in has a 2 day festival. Like every year there is a parade and a lot of the delagates and sometimes senators participate. Afterwards both parties have booths set up to get people to register to vote and such. I went by the Democrat booth and got a Kerry/Edwards pin and bumper sticker. From there I went to my high school's booth. I'm not in school anymore but they always have old yearbooks and such and I wanted to show someone a picture. That booth was right next the the republican booth. It was great. They saw me wearing the Kerry pin and gave me dirty looks. I thought it was hilarious.

Ashley

[Anabela]

Originally posted by Avatar Hell has just frozen over ... I just found an almost objective, slightly Bush-critical report at FOX News, here.

Thanks for the link.
That's a surprise coming from Fox News!

[ceilirose]

Surprising from Fox News..that's an understatement. Also their poll has Bush only ahead by 2 to 3 points as well.

Ashely..I live near the NH border and it's a swing state so I see plenty of Bush/Cheney and Kerry/Edwards signs. Sadly I've seen the K/E lawn signs defaced.

The thing to remember is that B/C have invitation only rallies and K/E supporters aren't really allowed. That's not the case for Kerry/Edwards. They have to limit the size according to the space the rally is held in but B/C people are allowed in and allowed to protest. Imagine a thing like that happening in America.

The B/C people really have a thing about control and what their image should be.

Here's an article courtesy of dailykos.com about an Alabama woman who lost her job because of her support for Kerry.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/13/22340/7080

[Anabela]

Originally posted by ceilirose Here's an article courtesy of dailykos.com about an Alabama woman who lost her job because of her support for Kerry.

That's a sad story. I think she should go talk to a lawyer.

[Milt Palacio]

Originally posted by ceilirose Ashely..I live near the NH border and it's a swing state so I see plenty of Bush/Cheney and Kerry/Edwards signs. Sadly I've seen the K/E lawn signs defaced.

I live just across the border from you in the "Gate City" and I mostly see Kerry/Edwards signs. Also, everyone I know is voting Kerry/Edwards with the exception of my girlfriend's parents. Right now Kerry has the slight lead. We only have 2 or 3 electoral votes anyway I believe.

[migamoo]

Originally posted by ceilirose Ashely..I live near the NH border and it's a swing state so I see plenty of Bush/Cheney and Kerry/Edwards signs. Sadly I've seen the K/E lawn signs defaced.

That's really sad. But you know if someone did that to a Bush/Cheney sign all hell would break loose. Maryland is not really a swing state though. I can see it becoming one in the coming years. I think we are slowly becoming Republican-leaning. We've been Democratic for so long and people are starting to vote for more Republicans as of late.

Here's an article courtesy of dailykos.com about an Alabama woman who lost her job because of her support for Kerry. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/13/22340/7080

What?! That's just wrong. She said she contacted a lawyer but never went through with it. What's wrong with her? She was fired because of hypocrasy and discrimination. She should at least talk with a lawyer.

Originally posted by Milt Palacio Also, everyone I know is voting Kerry/Edwards with the exception of my girlfriend's parents.

Right now I'm the only one I know of that is voting Kerry. All the people I know who would vote Kerry aren't even registered. I've been trying to get them to register, but sofar no luck.

Ashley

[Milt Palacio]

Originally posted by Fieryangel Right now I'm the only one I know of that is voting Kerry. All the people I know who would vote Kerry aren't even registered.

This alone may cause Kerry to lose the presidency.

Have you checked how to register? In my city, you actually register right at the polls so it's very easy.

[migamoo]

Originally posted by Milt Palacio This alone may cause Kerry to lose the presidency. Have you checked how to register? In my city, you actually register right at the polls so it's very easy.

I don't think that you can register (in Maryland) at the polls. I think you have to be registered by Oct. 15th to be eligable to vote in the general election. But I know of a zillion and one places where you can register. I've gone into stores in the mall and they have forms you can fill out to register. There's not a shortage of ways to register, it's just that they will not register. It's depressing.

Ashley

[Uh Blah]

I’m not a history buff & I don’t follow every single issue like sum of you have done. I am still a young pup when it comes to politics. However I take my right to vote VERY seriously. Which is why I am strongly opposed to our voting system. Conservatives can claim I’m a sore loser all they want. Bush is our President. I’ve come to live with that. BUT I want a change! It’s been 4 years & that may seem like a long time to some. But the same issues we had back then are still very much in play today.

apathy is the worst kind of response that anyone can have with what's going on around the world and especially, IN the United States and the upcoming election...

You know when I went into the voting booth for the very 1st time in 2000, the 1st thing that came to my mind is; “huh? This is how we vote in America in the year 2000? With all the technology we have now. All we can come up with is this 20-30 year old rusty box of metal?” And the electoral college, how old is that? I know I’m beating a dead horse here, but the only benefit I can figure it has today is in giving the media a faster, simpler result to our National election. But why is it so important that we get fast, simplified results? When deciding who to lead this nation it would be nice if we got an accurate national account of each & every single vote, don’t ya think? I mean that’s our motto every 4 years, that every vote counts. I’m an Independent voter but yes I lean to the left on a majority of issues. Issues like; abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage & others such where I don’t let religion get in the way of progressive ideals.

The reason for my post is I’m very concerned that we could repeat history all over again & have a President reelected by Electoral College, who once again does not have the majority vote. Worst of all, I like many other Americans(Ind, Rep or Dem) have NO control over it. The reason I have no control is I live in a, what I like to call pre-determined state. I don’t see the ads or get visits by the candidates here b/c our state(MA) has been long decided. Thanks to the Electoral College my vote has already been taken. Maybe I’m the one that’s ignorant but how can anybody see this as just & be okay with that? The same can be said for those in Texas. So do I feel certain that Kerry would win the election if we did away with the Electoral College? NO, but I’d feel a lot better knowing my vote actually counted.

So we ask Americans to show interest & care about their vote, but then the guy u vote for has the most votes loses. Now 4 years later, we expect u to shut up & go do the whole process over again? And we wonder why there’s apathy to the election?

[*Ledi*]

I'm very confused because I don't know how things work in the US. What do you guys mean your votes don't count?

[ceilirose]

Originally posted by *Ledi* I'm very confused because I don't know how things work in the US. What do you guys mean your votes don't count?

Basically each state has one electoral vote per Senator (always 2) and then one per each Congressman they have. So a populous state like California has a huge number of votes since Congressonal districts are defined based on population.

In theory whoever wins the popular vote for the state gets the electoral vote and usually wins the general election. Except for 2000 and one other year which I can't remember.

Ack..it's confusing but look at http://www.fec.gov/pages/ecworks.htm if you have the time.

It sucks because I live in Massachusetts and we'll go for Kerry and in the big picture my vote won't matter. The people who will decide the election live in what they call 'swing' states where the races are tied. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Missouri and some others are in that category.

Confusing, no?

Milt Palacio..the defaced lawn sign was in Hudson. I'd say it's split 40/60 between Bush/Cheney and Kerry/Edwards there.

Heehee..there are three of us evil Massachusetts liberal in this thread.

BTW don't you just hate it when Republicans sneeringly refer to us Massachusetts Liberals like we're the scum of the earth? Joe Scarborough from MSNBC does it all the time.