[UnsilentMajorty]

The dangers of what is happening with Howard Stern are more in the implications than anything else.

Censorship of his show could be the first step as this administration starts to then justify getting into TV (they already are), music, art, and any other thing where they can decide what you -- as a grown adult -- Should be allowed to watch on the basis of "morality".

However, these same people will then hide behind the freedom of speech and other amendments that supposedly protect forms of expression to promote their own agenda in the name of "free expression".

It'll be a one way street with them because while they can ban voilence and sex in entertainment, they can still stand on a street corner and call those who support (or don't support) abortions as "murders" and "terrorists" because that is "their" right to free speech.

As the saying goes... "We're through the looking glass here people".

Seriously.

I don't think I'd ever live in a time when what is happening is happening... But it is happening and the more and more you think about it, the more and more the reality of a possible civil war in the United States in 2005, 2006 and beyond becomes a reality (more than a passing thought) if things continue the way they have and get worse and this country is left with no choice.

[ceilirose]

Anne - Poker with the terrorists? Eatings frogs? All you can do is shake your head at the lame insults that our Administration and it's supporters can come up with.

Bush has become a uniter just like he said in his campaign. The Sunnis and Shi'a have momemtarily put aside their differences and now detest Americans.

I don't know about overseas media but the American media hasn't realy been reporting the severity of the fighting in Iraq this last week. From what I can see the major networks are just glossing over it..you have to go online to read much of what's really going on. So much for our liberal press..they just spoon feed us what the White House tells them.

What's really the most aggravating is the Bush is on another vacation in his ranch in Texas. Seriously did Clinton take this much vacation time? I don't remember that if he did. The American death toll is rising in Iraq, over 500 Iraqis are dead including woman and children, corpses are rotting in the streets of Fallujah and Dubya is cutting down shrub and relaxing.

[UnsilentMajorty]

Originally posted by ceilirose: What's really the most aggravating is the Bush is on another vacation in his ranch in Texas. Seriously did Clinton take this much vacation time? I don't remember that if he did. The American death toll is rising in Iraq, over 500 Iraqis are dead including woman and children, corpses are rotting in the streets of Fallujah and Dubya is cutting down shrub and relaxing.[/qb]

Because as long as the money is coming in (if there is any money) and he can say, "I did something to stop terrorism and "eeeeeviiiillll", then that is all that matters.

He does not care about the lives of our young men and women. If he did... He would have never invaded Iraq in the first place. End of story.

He also has no concept of what war really is... Unlike John Kerry who had to kill a man -- A kid no younger than himself at the time (19, 20) -- At less than 10 feet away with a rifle in Vietnam.

For those that don't know, this is how he won his Silver Star. His river partrol boat was about to be attacked by Vietcong who had rockets on the shore, but Kerry spotted one of the guys aiming at them, jumped off the boat and chased the guy into the woods where they faced off. The Vietnamese solider (a kid) was going to fire the rocket at him, so Kerry did the only thing that was left open to him and that was fired his weapon first... And killed him.

To this day, almost 40 years later, he still can not tell that story without getting choked up. He only recently told that story to his daughter, Vanessa, who is helping with his campaign because it is that painful (in that Vanessa is almost 28 and he never told her that until a few years ago).

I would much rather respect a leader like this who has to make the decision to send our young men and women into harm's way since he (the leader) knows the terrible psychological and physical effects that war really does to people... Unlike Bush whose only exposure is probably just John Wayne movies or something. It sickens me that our so-called Commander and Chief has absolutely NO point of reference for what real warfare is... Because do you think he looks at all the pictures of our maimed, bloody and dead men and women every day as part of his briefing on Iraq? Yeah. Me niether [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

And I'll be honest. As good a president as Clinton was... I wished he had also served just because I beleive that if you are going to be the leader of the most powerful army on the planet Earth that you KNOW what war is really like and have a frame of reference for what it does to the soliders as well as their families when the bullets have stopped flying.

[ros2nz]

Anyone else find the defense of the Bush twins not getting drafted funny? [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] I nearly spit out my drink laughing, especially since it was just an off-hand comment.

UnsilentMajority - I agree with your last point.

[UnsilentMajorty]

Originally posted by ros2nz: <STRONG>Anyone else find the defense of the Bush twins not getting drafted funny? [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] I nearly spit out my drink laughing, especially since it was just an off-hand comment.</STRONG>

Not really.

These are the same kids (posters) who are all willing to say, "There's nothing wrong with the draft..." until THEY have to actually GO to Iraq, or some place. But then again, let's be honest. They figure they WON'T ever have to go, so they can argue their points (which reak of justification and rationailzation if you read them carefully) from what is basically a positon of safety and confidence.

What do I mean by this?

Because most of them ARE educated and will find a fairly good job once they get out of college. Boom. They are safe and "exempt" from the draft... Especially, if they've got the connections.

I'm not trying to stereotype all Republicans as "White, Anglo-Saxon Ultra Rich Yuppies who drive around in Ford Escalades" because I do know that there are middle class and poor people who are Republicans... But you have to admit, the former is mainly who supports Bush (those who work in big and small business) and his policies.

In fact, even though the bill was proposed by a Democrat as a way to give a more realistic perspective to members of Congress and Senate -- The premise being if those representative's children are actually COUNTED in a draft then they'd be less likely to support going to war -- The reality is that regardless of party, if you are rich (or your parents are rich) or have the connections you will ALWAYS find ways to get out of having to serve (in the military). Period. That's the way it is. Money determines all. It alters lives and saves lives.

This aspect wasn't brought up in that thread and I'm not going to do it because I've made it pretty clear what is going on in this country, where I stand and debating (even in a civil manner) with those who support (or are blind to) what is going on just will not make any difference because again, not to stereotype, but a lot of them just do not have a realistic FRAME OF REFERENCE for a lot of what is REALLY going on in the world... Because they haven't lived enough to know to be honest.

I have.

Does that make me "better" than them?

No.

However, it does make me more educated and more knowledgeable in terms of life experience and the reality of the CONSEQUENCES of a lot of these things that they support that when you are young you DON'T have. Period.

That's the big difference between myself and a lot of these posters. It's not an insult in any way, shape or form. It's just a chronological fact.

Whether you think that makes me arrogant or not is irrelevant (no offense).

Again, not to flame or stereotype, but with age comes experience and with experience comes hindsight and new perspective. And I have in fact been a live longer (some by a few years; some almost by a decade) than a lot of the posters who support some of the things going on in this administration, and I have also experienced things that I know for a fact a lot of these posters have not, or will not ever experience (for better or for worse) as well.

For instance, a lot of them are being pumped full of college bravato with their Undergraduate and MBA degrees... But when they get out there, in the real business world (or whatever field), all it comes down to are things like: Do you work well with others? How well can you handle stress? Where are you willing to draw the line as far as integrity goes? How do you handle politics in terms of your chosen field?

A lot of these posters have not had to make some of some of the hard decisions I've had to make -- which is where the reality of CONSEQUENCES comes in -- And this is why I am so admiment about my stance on what I believe is happening to this once great nation and why I seem "close minded" a lot because we are dealing with an administration that has said, "you're either with us, or against us" and I've already had to make that choice (in the business world) and I suffered for it... Because I had integrity and stood up for my beliefs and basically said, "I'm not with you because what you are doing is WRONG".

I have had the quintessential, life altering "Jerry Maguire" experience.

And again, no, it doesn't make me better than anyone else who hasn't had something similar happen to them... But it is something that defined who I am as a person -- as well as professionally -- And to me, everything the Bush administration stands for is the very thing that I had to stand up against when I lost everything.

And when I say lost everything, I mean lost everything: A very good paying job, friends, colleagues, etc. I am now back on my feet... And am glad I've had this experience -- before I am even 30 -- Because I know what I believe in and am willing to stand up for it because when you lose everything, you literally have nothing else to fall back on BUT yourself and what you stand for. Integrity in its purest form.

Sorry for the rant and if I made some generalizations or accusations...

But I want you guys to know who Unsilent Majorty is and why I come off the way I do a lot times given the context of what's going on in this country and why we need to "push back" or else it's only going to get worse.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Enigma, I.C.]

Well, I have to say that integrity is certainly a good thing. Most people will sell themselves out to whomever pays the best.
I'm 22 and could very well be drafted if there is one. I wrestle with the question of what I would do. Frankly, my first thought is to go into exile (most people would call it "dodging") because I would not fight in a stupid war I don't believe in. My mom would also not appreciate me coming home in a bodybag so a politican can gain 2% in the polls either.
It's strange sometimes. We hear about "10 people" or however many Americans dying in Iraq or wherever and it just doesn't translate for most of us that those are real people. As UnsilentMajority was saying, when it hits home, it makes much more of an impact. If politicans had to face the ramifications of their decisions, instead of being insulated by their suits and officialdom, we'd have a better government. In my opinion, anyway [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].
It's really easy and it makes a cool soundbite for George Bush to smugly say, "bring 'em on," but his bottom isn't out there sweating in the desert like one of the soldiers knowing that the next car at the checkpoint could be the last he/she sees. There is a real world out there and some lose touch with it.

[ceilirose]

The Washington Post has a section where they list the soldier killed by calendar date with photos if they have them. So even if they don't have photos for all that died on say March 31st they will show a silhouette. To me it's powerful and I can only look at it for so long.

This week has been horrible in Iraq and to me it seems that people aren't really affected by it. It's like no one or even a majority of Americans really want Bush & Co to be accountable for this mess that they've created over there. Just don't think about it and it will go away. I want Senators & Congressmen from both parties to start demanding answers.

Bush losing credibility on 9/11 is really only his own fault. They decided that their defense was that they were perfect..they did everything they could and we have to fight terrorism. Now it's coming out that they weren't perfect and may have let things slide prior to 9/11. Believe it or not I don't really blame Bush for 9/11. But it would go a long way if someone from the Government would just say we could have done some things better than we did or something like that. This continued arrogance and mindset of theirs is what really disturbs me.

ETA - when I say awful in Iraq I mean for both Iraqis and the Coalition. If we're desensitized to Americans dying then we're beyond being that when it comes to innocent Iraqis dying.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

[ros2nz]

ceilierose - I agree. I don't much blame Bush for 9/11, but I sure as hell blame him for the next great terror attack. I'd like to be a naive little flowerbucket, but really, with the current situation, it could be any day now.

[ceilirose]

roz2nz - ITA..Bush has done more harm on the "war on terrorism" than good. We may be seeing the next wave of attacks in Iraq right now.

Unsilent Majorty - Agreed..I've always felt that Presidents who have actually seen battle will think twice about commiting troops to battle. At the very least they are more apt to view any situation where military action is an option very seriously.

This site lists political figures who have served in the military. It's amazing that must of the high-ranking Republicans never put on a uniform but are the biggest hawks in Washington right now. More surprising is the number of Democrats who served..even Ted Kennedy did his two years in the 50's.
http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

I just have to say something about the Bush twins..you have to laugh at those two..giving fake I.D. to a bartender with the Secret Service standing right there. Duh..I remember when I heard that on the news I just laughed right out loud.

[UnsilentMajorty]

Edited:

Never Mind.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited UnsilentMajorty ]

[ceilirose]

Hey UM - I was just going to reply. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I think you had some good points so maybe you'll reconsider and repost.

Now ask me why I wander from this thread to be called all sorts of names because I'm not a true Bush believer. Someone's at the door..maybe it's Ashcroft coming to get me for my treasonous remarks. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

[dayne]

ceilirose, Bush and a lot of other Republican politicians are Chickenhawks. They want others to serve in a war, but when given the oppurtunity themselves to fight in an earlier war that they themselves believed in, they chickened out.

The Chickenhawk motto is: We the few, the rich, the elite. Born to kill, but not serve.

This is the formal meaning of a Chickenhawk:

Chickenhawk n. A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person’s youth.

I you guys want, you guys should check out the Chickenhawk Database. They have a pretty funny logo and a list of other notable Chickenhawk members.

Chickenhawk Database

[ceilirose]

dayne - [img]smilies/rotfl.gif[/img] That's a great site and it's true. Amazing that almost none of the top people in the Administration have served in the military except for a few.

Seriously as much as Kerry wasn't my first choice I do respect him for volunteering for Vietnam. He was in a social class where it would have been easy for him to pull strings and get a National Guard slot but he went there because at the time he thought it was the right thing to do. Vietnam didn't turn out well for the US but Kerry made a hard choice and followed his conscience.

[Enigma, I.C.]

I'm not really a big fan of Kerry's. He's wishywashy, especially on the rights of homosexuals and he compromises his own views too much for the sake of not appearing to be a liberal.

[dayne]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny too when I first came across that on the NH Gazette.

And although, I don't agree with what transpired in Vietnam, I do respect the guy for serving in the war, while, other war-mongers or war-enthusiasts conveniently used their connections to sit the whole thing out. IMO, on this issue, at least he doesn't seem like a hypocrite.

And he wasn't my first choice for the Democratic nomination either, but I guess since it's going to be either him or Bush, I would prefer that Kerry be the victor in the upcoming election.

[ 04-11-2004: Message edited dayne ]