[Jess519]

Anne, I greatly admire you for posting on that thread. I tend to avoid most Israel/Palestine discussion unless with close friends. They always devolve into anti-Semitic accusations and no real dialogue ever gets accomplished.

I've wanted to post a couple of times on the thread, but I guess I'm a little bit of a chickens**t. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Don't want to fight a losing battle. So props to you for sticking it out. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I've never heard anyone say before that the Red Cross is anti-Semetic. Is that true?

[Avatar]

You know, whenever I discuss the Middle East or hear it discussed (not just on FF), I get the feeling that I'm in the middle of George Orwell's Animal Farm. Either people are of the opinion that Palestine's bad and Israel good or the other way around (two legs bad, four legs good!), and the situation isn't as black-and-white as that.

I think that, in order to properly debate and understand the Mid East, you need to be able to have two thoughts in your head at the same time, and a lot of people aren't capable of that. You need to be able to condemn terrorist acts from the Palestinians and Arafat for not doing nearly enough to stop it, as well as condemning the Israelis for fueling the violence with their poor treatment of the Palestinians, and for going tit-for-tat with the terrorists.

I'm still idealistic enough to believe that "one day the lion and the lamb would lie down in peace together in Jerusalem", to quote Steve Earle's song of the same name. But in order for that to happen, people need to stop looking at the situation as being cut-and-dry, and we need a new set of leaders committed to peace, and not terrorists the likes of Sharon and Arafat.

[ 03-31-2004: Message edited Avatar ]

[StellaSlight]

Dan, I don't think I can agree more with your post. You expressed very well what the bottom is :

people need to stop looking at the situation as being cut-and-dry, and we need a new set of leaders committed to peace, and not terrorists the likes of Sharon and Arafat.

[ceilirose]

Ralph Nader (running for US President again) was on CNN yesterday and said that for peace between Israel & Palestine he would work with the peace movements in each country.

Per Nader most Americans confuse Israel itself with the military government that runs it and most Israeli's are for a two-state solution.

I don't know if there's anyone out there who knows about the peace movements in each place. I've read some stuff on the Israeli movement but next to little on Palestine's movement.

[*Juli*]

Very well said guys [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Like I said, the whole Middle East situation is not cut and dry. I am glad that there are others who believe that there are a lot of things to take into account.

[idork]

Here's a conversation starter: Why exactly were you/are you against the war in Iraq? Give me some good concrete proof.

I admit this is not purely conversational, I am getting different viewpoints for a speech. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ceilirose]

Where do you start?

I remember hearing and reading different pieces of media which contradicted what Bush was saying prior to the buildup of the war. The American media never really questioned him on his stances even though the rest of the world press was doing just that. The 'you're with us or against us" mentality, the anti-French stance of the Government which was just juvenile (freedom fries?), practically giving the UN the finger and insulting the weapons inspectors plus the lukewarm response of the rest of the world convinced me it was the wrong way to go.

When it started I just prayed that it would be over quickly. Last year at this point I even thought that there would be a more stable government in Iraq then there is now. That's a dream right now considering the news that comes out of there every day.

Now I don't even know what to think. The US can't leave because all the infrastructure damage it's done. No one has been named to lead the country when Bremer leaves on 6/30 so who knows how it will go? I hope there's not some bloody civil war that kills more Iraqis, Americans and other coalition forces but it could go either way. Iraq is more unstable in terms of terrorism than it was last year before the invasion.

Does that help?

[Jess519]

Hmm, I guess the most basic reason I'm against the war in Iraq is that I'm against any sort of preemptive war. That what this was (or was touted to be).

Of course, I also believe the war was preempting absolutely nothing. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Which makes it a doubly bad idea.

I mainly was stopping by today to post this cartoon. It's on the gay marriage issue and it's pretty hilarious. Gay Agenda

You all should check out Mark Fiore's other cartoons on that site too. He's good.

[ceilirose]

I found this political cartoon to be funny and a more than likely accurate potrayal of their 9/11 commission testimony:

Bush & Cheney

Did any see that clip on the David Letterman showing a 12-year old boy yawning and practically falling asleep standing up as he listened to Bush? It's pretty funny but the weird thing was CNN said that it wasn't true per the White House and that the Letterman show edited the tape. Letterman said no..it actually happened and then CNN came on and said that their anchor had mispoken and the WH never made that comment.

Does anyone else remember when CNN was actually reputable?

[ 04-03-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

[idork]

Oh jeez. So much for the "liberal media" or "liberal CNN." Seriously, everytime I hear the former term, I cringe...It's almost an oxymoron in my opinion.

[Enigma, I.C.]

I found this and thought it was funny:

25 RULES FOR BEING A GOOD REPUBLICAN!

1) You believe that drug addiction is a moral failing and a crime, unless the addict is a millionaire conservative radio jock which then makes it an "illness" and he needs our prayers for his "recovery".

2) You believe that those privileged from birth achieve success all on their own.

3) You believe that the US should get out of the UN, and that our highest national priority is to enforce the UN's resolutions against Iraq.

4) You believe that government should stay out of people's lives but it needs to punish anyone caught having private sex with the "wrong" gender.

5) You believe that pollution is okay, so long as it makes a profit.

6) You believe in prayer in schools, as long as they don't pray to Allah or Buddha.

7) "Standing Tall for America" means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.

8) You believe that a woman cannot be trusted with decisions about her own body, but that large multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind with no regulation whatsoever.

9) You believe that you love Jesus and Jesus loves you, and that Jesus shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary.

10) You hate the ALCU for representing convicted felons, but they owed it to the country to bail out Oliver North.

11) You believe that the best way to encourage military morale is to praise the troops overseas while cutting their VA benefits.

12) You believe that group sex and drug use are degenerate sins that can only be purged by running for governor of California as a Republican.

13) You believe it is wise to keep condoms out of schools, because we all know if teenagers don't have condoms they won't have sex.

14) You believe that the best way to fight terrorism is to alienate our allies and then demand their cooperation and money.

15) You believe that government medicine is wrong and that HMOs and insurance companies have your best interests at heart.

16) You believe that giving free health care to all Iraqis is sound government policy but giving free health care to Americans is socialism.

17) You believe that tobacco's link to cancer and global warming are "junk science", but Creationism should be taught in schools.

18) You believe that waging war with no exit strategy was wrong in Vietnam but right in Iraq.

19) You believe that Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney was doing business with him, and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

20) You believe that government should restrict itself to just the powers named in the Constitution, which includes banning gay marriages and censoring the internet.

21) You believe that the public has a right to know about the adulterous affairs of Democrats, while those of Republicans are a "private matter".

22) You believe that the public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades but that Bush was right to censor 28 pages from the Congressional 9.11 report because you just can't handle the truth.

23) You support state rights, which means Ashcroft telling states what locally passed voter initiatives he will allow them to have.

24) You believe that what Clinton did in the 1960's is of vital national interest but what Bush did in the 80s is "stale news" and "irrelevant".

25) You believe that trade with Cuba is wrong because it is communist, but trading with China and Vietnam is good for business.

[ros2nz]

Good one, Enigma.

[ceilirose]

Ah..Hilary...the she-devil..enblematic of all that's bad, evil and wrong, wrong, wrong with the Democrats. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But her book still outsold those of O'Reilly, Hannity and Coulter...maybe the American public does know something after all.

Sadly..about Iraq and the events over the weekend. I don't even know what you can say about it anymore.

[Enigma, I.C.]

Originally posted by ros2nz: <STRONG>Good one, Enigma.</STRONG>

I was amused by it so I passed it along. Unfortunately not all understand the idea of political satire these days.

[migamoo]

actually i don't think that a lot of people even know what satire is let alone political satire.