News & Politics - Lawmaker: Marines killed Iraqis ‘in cold blood’

Lexis · 05-18-2006, 02:35 AM

Remember this story from late last year?

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A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”

On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

A videotape taken by an Iraqi showed the aftermath of the alleged attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

On Nov. 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that on the previous day a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gunbattle, U.S. and Iraqi troops killed eight insurgents, he said.

U.S. military officials later confirmed that the version of events was wrong.

Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday that sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that "there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.

WARNING - There is a graphic photo on this webpage so be careful. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/

Its stuff like this that turns people against the coalition.

WalkingOnSunshine · 05-18-2006, 11:17 AM

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Originally Posted by Lexis

Its stuff like this that turns people against the coalition.

What people are you refering to and aren't the accused Marines innocent until proven guilty? I don't think some people need a reason to be against the coalition.

Transcript of Murtha's appearance on "Hardball" last night:

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MATTHEWS: Draw us a picture of what happened in Haditha.

MURTHA: Well I'll tell you exactly what happened. One Marine was killed and the Marines just said we're gonna take care...we don't know who the enemy is, the pressure was too much on them, so they went into houses and actually killed civilians and...I...

MATTHEWS: Was this My Lai? When you say cold blood Congressman, a lot of people think you're basically saying you've got some civilians sitting in a room or out in a field and they're executed on purpose...

MURTHA: That's exactly what happened.

MATTHEWS: ...not because any of the Marines are scared or anybody is scared...

MURTHA: ...this was not an action...this was not...first they tried to say it was an IED, there was no IED involved in this. This was troops, they were so stressed out, they went into houses and killed children, women and children. 24 people they killed. Now this is the kind of stress they are under. Listen, I don't excuse it, but I understand what's happening and the responsibility goes right to the top. This is something that should not have happened, that should have been investigated, they've already relieved three commanding officers...but this is the kind of stuff...stress is going to cause these kind of things. That's why I'm so upset about it.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, I just want to read something from the Marine Corps and then you can continue. The Marine Corps told us today that they're not going to comment today because the investigation is still ongoing. So they're investigating...

The Marine Corps' statement in response to Murtha's remarks:
"There is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process. As soon as the facts are known and decisions on future actions are made, we will make that information available to the public to the fullest extent allowable."

Also, it seems that Murtha's comments were the first on-the-record remarks by a U.S. official characterizing the findings of military investigators looking into the Nov. 19 incident. Murtha, the ranking Democrat on the Defense Appropriations subcommittee and an opponent of Bush administration policy in Iraq, said he hadn't read the report but had learned about its findings from military commanders and other sources.

Why in the world with ongoing investigation is he making any comments on the subject? Murtha has basically accused these Marines of cold-blooded murder without an investigation being completed. As well with his little stint last night on TV, he doubled the number of dead for so unknown reason. Murtha's time is ticking away and hopefully he won't be able to make such claims once the elections come up this fall.

86amanda86 · 05-18-2006, 11:23 AM

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Originally Posted by WalkingOnSunshine

I don't think some people need a reason to be against the coalition.

Hear. Hear.

Lexis · 05-18-2006, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by WalkingOnSunshine

What people are you refering to and aren't the accused Marines innocent until proven guilty? I don't think some people need a reason to be against the coalition.

The people I was referring to are average Iraqi's i.e. those that aren't blowing up American soldiers or shooting down British helicopters, people trying to get by and keep their families safe.

The Marines are of course innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't mean this isn't a story that just goes away until then- the pictures that were released last year were deplorable and its the media's duty to report both what is supposed to have happenned and the ongoing investigation.

There are probably a whole bunch of people who hate America or the West in general for no reason. I would also bet there are a lot of people who hate the coalition for other reasons - like the widow of an ambulance driver who was blown up by American soldiers by accident. Is their opposition always justified? Probably not. But its there and it has to be dealt with.

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Why in the world with ongoing investigation is he making any comments on the subject?

Who knows. Maybe its anger - he was a Marine and I imagine this case runs pretty deep, especially since some of his years were spent in a war that saw some horrendous brutality on the part of American soldiers. But its hardly surprising - comments about ongoing investigations in all branches of government all around the world are made all the time. Like the former Press Sec. stating that Scooter Libby had nothing to do with the Plame affair.

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Murtha's time is ticking away and hopefully he won't be able to make such claims once the elections come up this fall.

It'll be interesting watching the midterms this year. Murtha's been in office for more than 30 years now.

Ms Carolyn · 05-19-2006, 05:15 AM

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Originally Posted by WalkingOnSunshine

Why in the world with ongoing investigation is he making any comments on the subject? Murtha has basically accused these Marines of cold-blooded murder without an investigation being completed. As well with his little stint last night on TV, he doubled the number of dead for so unknown reason. Murtha's time is ticking away and hopefully he won't be able to make such claims once the elections come up this fall.

Why? Because otherwise it would be too easy for something like this to be swept under the rug. If the Marines are innocent, they'll be exonerated. If they're not, they'll be punished. But at least this won't just go away if the whole world is watching.

WalkingOnSunshine · 05-19-2006, 09:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Lexis

The people I was referring to are average Iraqi's i.e. those that aren't blowing up American soldiers or shooting down British helicopters, people trying to get by and keep their families safe.

Oh I see, so those people, the average Iraqis, will turn against the coalition because of this alleged incident? The same coalition that has allowed them more capability to keep their families safe. I don't think one isolated event, if proven true, is any reason to turn against a military that has given you a new lease on life.

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The Marines are of course innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't mean this isn't a story that just goes away until then- the pictures that were released last year were deplorable and its the media's duty to report both what is supposed to have happenned and the ongoing investigation.

I didn't say it should just "go away". However, the Marines should be treated with the same respect & courtesy until this is played out. Murtha, a former Marine, should know better than to accuse these men of "cold-blooded murder" - especially when so many military people are in harm's way.

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There are probably a whole bunch of people who hate America or the West in general for no reason. I would also bet there are a lot of people who hate the coalition for other reasons - like the widow of an ambulance driver who was blown up by American soldiers by accident. Is their opposition always justified? Probably not. But its there and it has to be dealt with.

Ok. I am sorry, but what exactly does that widow have to do with this situation? Is it awful that her husband died? Yes. Does that mean she should have hatred towards those trying to allow her & her family the freedom they were denied for so long? No.

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Who knows. Maybe its anger - he was a Marine and I imagine this case runs pretty deep, especially since some of his years were spent in a war that saw some horrendous brutality on the part of American soldiers. But its hardly surprising - comments about ongoing investigations in all branches of government all around the world are made all the time. Like the former Press Sec. stating that Scooter Libby had nothing to do with the Plame affair.

I don't see your comparison. Scott McClellan commenting on situations is his job. Murtha going on TV and accusing Marines, his former branch of service, of "cold-blooded murder" is so far out of the realm of his job.

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It'll be interesting watching the midterms this year. Murtha's been in office for more than 30 years now.

He has been around a long time - maybe too long. Time for some new blood hopefully.

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Originally Posted by Ms Carolyn

Why? Because otherwise it would be too easy for something like this to be swept under the rug. If the Marines are innocent, they'll be exonerated. If they're not, they'll be punished. But at least this won't just go away if the whole world is watching.

I am not talking about sweeping anything under the rug. What I am talking about is Murtha accusing these men of "cold-blooded murder" while this investigation is still on-going.

Lain · 05-19-2006, 10:27 AM

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U.S. military officials later confirmed that the version of events was wrong.

Well they are innocent until proven guilty but from my knowledge, just like the government, the military does have a tendency to hold back information from the public.

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"there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

This is what gets to me. I can understand how high the pressure is on the troops but that doesn't mean the pressure could clash in with their common sense to kill innocent people. If what Murtha claims turns out to be relevant...

Sure I'm not surprised the attacks by our military (or whomever) end up costing the lives of innocent people because this is what we end up hearing on the news or reading on the paper. But just to kill them in cold blood just because you're under "pressure" without just cause...

Well, we'll see how this plays out.

Lexis · 05-19-2006, 11:36 AM

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Originally Posted by WalkingOnSunshine

Oh I see, so those people, the average Iraqis, will turn against the coalition because of this alleged incident? The same coalition that has allowed them more capability to keep their families safe. I don't think one isolated event, if proven true, is any reason to turn against a military that has given you a new lease on life.

Some may turn against the coalition - if I found out that my neighbours had been murdered by people who said they were liberating my people, I'd be furious. Wouldn't most people be? One isolated event might not mean much on a countrywide scale but its not just that. Its a thousand little tragedies. I'm not saying the coalition is at fault for all of them - terrible things happen at war and people will suffer - but I think its impossible to discount the stories coming out of Iraq.

For example, the father of a teenage boy who was crushed under the wheels of an armoured vechile when the military drove into the garden of the wrong house while on a raid and trapped the boy under the wheels. He said he thought the Americans were bringing freedom and is now disgusted at them. It was an horiffic accident but can we really deny this man his anger? I try and put myself in these people's shoes and I know I can't come close to what they are going through.

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Ok. I am sorry, but what exactly does that widow have to do with this situation? Is it awful that her husband died? Yes. Does that mean she should have hatred towards those trying to allow her & her family the freedom they were denied for so long? No.

The widow has something to do with these situation. The widow has a lot to do with this situation. If my husband was in a clearly marked ambulance, going to help people who were suffering and the Americans fired upon it, blew him up and left me with three children under 5 to take care of, I'd probably be pretty angry at them. I'm not gonna judge a widow for being angry at the people who killed her husband although I personally think the soldiers who fired cannot be blamed for a horrible accident.

Bad things happen and when people think they see who is responsible - in the Haditha incident, American marines - they are gonna get angry. Its human nature. Are all these people gonna take up arms and fight? I doubt it. Are they gonna be resentful and disappointed? I would imagine so.

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I don't see your comparison. Scott McClellan commenting on situations is his job. Murtha going on TV and accusing Marines, his former branch of service, of "cold-blooded murder" is so far out of the realm of his job.

I'm not comparing, I'm illustrating the point that despite what should be done (i.e. not commenting on things like this or Plame till the facts are established and there's some sort of conclusion), people do comment on things they shouldn't. Its not new. In my opinion, Murtha shouldn't comment now - he should wait until things are settled.

86amanda86 · 05-20-2006, 11:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Lexis

Some may turn against the coalition - if I found out that my neighbours had been murdered by people who said they were liberating my people, I'd be furious. Wouldn't most people be?

But the Iraqi people aren't stupid. They, and I hope you, would have the sense to know that the mistakes made by a few soldiers don't necessarily represent the entire coalition.

Lexis · 05-21-2006, 04:29 AM

I think the majority of people (and I myself of course!) know rationally that a mistake by one unit does not mean the entire force of the American army is like that. But emotionally, I can imagine it being hard to distance yourself when a war is raging around you and all to many people are willing to tell you exactly who is at fault.

This doesn't always manifest itself against coalition soldiers - the sectarian fighting between Sunni and Shia has been known the follow a pattern: Sunni is killed, Shia is killed for payback. Shia is killed, Sunni is killed for payback.

Lexis · 05-30-2006, 02:31 AM

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Family members of two Marines say their sons were ordered to photograph and clean up corpses of unarmed Iraqi civilians that members of their unit are suspected of killing, and they have been traumatized ever since.

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In separate interviews with The Associated Press on Monday, the parents of Lance Cpl. Andrew Wright, 20, and Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones, 21, said their sons told them the events of last November remain seared in their memories.

Wright and Briones were members of a Marine unit based at Camp Pendleton that was sent into the western Iraqi city of Haditha to help remove the bodies of as many as two dozen Iraqis, including women and children, who were shot.

While there, the two were ordered to photograph the scene with personal cameras they happened to be carrying the day of the attack, the families said. Briones' mother, Susie, said her son told her he saw the bodies of 23 dead Iraqis that day.

"It was horrific. It was a terrible scene," Susie Briones said in a tearful interview at her home in California's San Joaquin Valley.

Navy investigators confiscated Briones' camera, his mother said. Wright's parents, Patty and Frederick Wright of Novato, declined to comment on what might have happened to the photos their son took but said he turned over all of his information to the Navy.

"He is the Forrest Gump of the military," Frederick Wright said. "He ended up in the spotlight through no fault of his own."

Ryan Briones told the Los Angeles Times that Navy investigators had interrogated him twice in Iraq and they wanted to know whether bodies had been tampered with. He turned over his digital camera but did not know what happened to it after that.

Susie Briones called the Nov. 19 incident a "massacre" and said the military had done little to help her son, who goes by his middle name, deal with his post-traumatic stress disorder.

"I know Ryan is going through some major trauma right now," said Susie Briones, 40, an academic adviser at a community college. "It was very traumatic for all of the soldiers involved with this thing."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060530/...investigations


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