[chicah]

Yeah, I know I am pretty much asking for trouble when I'm creating this thread.
It is just that this is such an important issue to me.
This year the occupation of Palestine has been going on for 40 years.
40 years. Kids who are born there today don't even know what peace is.
It has been 40 years of suppression of the Palestinian people. 40 years of deaths and war. 40 years of creating hate between two different people.

I am not intending to hide that I support the Palestinians. Why, you might say.
It is simply because I do not support a country that answers rocks with bullets. I can not support a country that builds illegal walls to imprison a whole people. I can not support those who claim to want peace, and still they kill mostly civilians.
I do not support a country that claims to kill terrorists while they kill children.
I do not understand how a child can be a terrorist, it is apparently just those brave men who kill those terrorists who understand that fact.
I can not in any way support a country that feels they have a right to suppress a whole group of citizens.

This is one of the times when I am truly proud to be a Norwegian. Our government reached out a hand to the Palestinian government and accepted them. Let's just hope other countries follow. Let us hope that the Israelis who want peace are not labelled to be as bad as their government. Let us hope that after 40 years peace will come.

I am looking forward to this debate. It tends to get a bit heated, so let's try to stay polite. The last time we had this debate, things got a bit out of hand.

[jerkstore]

I'm still waiting for Israel to apologize for the attack in the USS Liberty.

USS LIBERTY Memorial

[Lexis]

I'm gonna stop by later to get into this more but I just wanted to say its not just rocks that the Palestinians hurl at Israel. Rockets fired at Israeli homes, suicide bombers on buses and in cafes...let's not pretend that Israel is the only one at fault in this situation.

[froggiepopple]

I will not support a group of people that strap a bomb unto the children in order to kill Israeli children.
I will not support a group of people that use propaganda to get the world to feel sorry for them.
I will not support a group of people that had the oppurtunity 3 times to their own country but instead refused.
I will not support a group of people that accuse Israel of apartheid but commit gender apartheid themselves.
I will not support a group of people that blame Israel for all of their problems and refuse to act like adults and take responsiblity.
I will not support a group of people, that tell the children to throw rocks at the IDF because it makes for good PR.
I will not support a group of people that want a Arab Nationalist country.
I will not support a group of people that claims Israel has no right to exist, but refuses to call for the destruction of Jordan (I don't think Jordan should be destroyed, I just find it hypocritical that Jordan can be allowed to stay but Israel has to go.) Well silly me a guess the death of a Palestinian is only tragic when it happens by an Israeli (Black September anyone?) In 1970 10,000 Palestians where massacred by Jordan.
I will not support a group of people that capitalize on their childrens death with their signs held high with smiles on their face.
I will not support a group of people that destroyed Rachel's grave site and Joseph's tomb.
I will not support a group of people that got the media to heighten temple mount that is the third holiest site in Islam while the media completely downplayed Temple Mount is the HOLIEST site in Judaism.

[elisheva]

I just wanted to remind everyone ahead of time to be very careful to keep a cool head and remain respectful to all posters. This is a very difficult and emotional subject for many people, but it's definitely worth discussing as long as everyone makes a special effort to follow the rules and stay friendly.

[chicah]

elisheva, definitely agree. And I promise to behave better than I did back then.

froggiepopple, I see where you're coming from.
But first of all, do you really think they basically dance on their children's grave? I do not think so. Every death is a tragedy, also the Israeli ones.
Second, the new Palestinian government have now accepted the state of Israel. That was first and foremost why my government decided to support them.

I am just looking at the facts here. Suicide bombers or not, every year, several more Palestinians are killed than Israeli's. I am listening to the UN who says the wall is wrong. I condone this wall and I do not see how someone cannot.
I saw a picture someone had taken of the wall, where someone had spray painted a message on it:

Fear builds walls, hope builds brigdes.

I thought it was almost beautiful in a way. It is true. If the Israeli's want peace, do they really think that locking up the Palestinians will help? It is just the same thing America is doing in f. instance Iraq, bomb their country and then get surprised when they get mad and join the only people who pretends to want to stop America and the western world, namely terrorist organizations.

I used to think that all religious people supported Israel and all non-religious did not, because that was how it was with the people I knew (I only knew one religious family though, lol), but of course, as I got older, I realized that was not the case. I actually got surprised how many Christians supported Palestine.
Just today I read an article in a Christian magazine that was about how badly the Palestinians were discriminated against, how arrogant and even dangerous the Israeli settlers were acting, and how the wall functioned. It talked of Israeli's working their entire lives for peace, along with their Palestinian friends, and experiencing that they have far more rights than their Palestinian friends. It was about how unfair (and, let me remind you again, illegal) the wall actually is. It was about how a Palestinian woman got hit by an Israeli car, and she had to pay for the damage done to the car. It was about how a poor Palestinian family had to leave their home because the wall was going to be built through it. They did not get any kind of replacement home or any money to build another house, probably because the Israeli government just wants them out of the country.
I think this is simply an opinion issue, but when even the deeply religious go down there and watch how things are, then make up their minds about how horrible many civilian Palestinians are treated... I mean, that shows that it is not ones duty as a religious person to support Israel. It shows that people see what is happening and protests against it.

I am planning to go there myself, preferably within 5 years - I want to see both sides of the conflict, and then make up my meaning, but I am pretty sure my impression will be that the Palestinians live in far worse conditions than the Israelis. The Israeli regime is called an apartheid regime for a reason.



This image is drawn by a Palestinian child, and it is how he feels about the wall.




This image was drawn by another, a 16-year old boy. I think it is a rather powerful picture. It shows how the Palestinians are cut of from everything they know and love about their country. Jerusalem is the roots of three of the largest religions in the world, and important to all of them. I do not think one religion can demand it. (I know the same thing goes for the Palestinians, but I think they should share it. Cutting them off completely is definitely not right.)



"No access to the hospital"

[COOLCAT200]

Yasser Arafat was extremely non helpful to the cause of peace. But The new government there is not any better in my opinion.

[Lexis]

No, I don't think the new administration is helpful either - check the news, you'll see that right now Fatah and Hamas are fighting each other in the street. Its chaos and again, not helpful to either the Palestinian people or the cause of peace.

[chicah]

The civil war chaos is not good, I agree. But I still believe that they can co-operate, after all, they created a government together. Although it will take a lot of work. I think Yasser Arafat did plenty of bad things, but all he did wasn't bad. He worked hard for peace, for instance the Oslo deal which was very important.

But still, it is funny how people see the flaws in the Palestinian government but not the Israeli one (not that it goes for any of you). I think that both sides have their flaws, but the way it is now, Israel is definitely the worst part.

[elisheva]

Originally Posted by chicah (View Post) I think Yasser Arafat did plenty of bad things, but all he did wasn't bad. He worked hard for peace,

That may be the funniest thing I've heard all day. (Actually, it's not really funny.)

the way it is now, Israel is definitely the worst part.

Seriously? Can you actually say that with a straight face?

[Lexis]

Originally Posted by chicah (View Post) The civil war chaos is not good, I agree. But I still believe that they can co-operate, after all, they created a government together. Although it will take a lot of work.

They are literally attacking each other's buildings, killing each other on the street. I'm not sure there will be progress when the Palestinians cannot unite on a path of peace. I feel so sorry for the people caught up in it but Israel and the international community cannot be expected to accept the current mess.

I think Yasser Arafat did plenty of bad things, but all he did wasn't bad. He worked hard for peace, for instance the Oslo deal which was very important.

And look where we are now. If anything, we're going backwards. I'm not an expert on the Middle East but I always got the impression that Arafat was playing diplomacy but not actually doing things that would change the situation.

But still, it is funny how people see the flaws in the Palestinian government but not the Israeli one (not that it goes for any of you). I think that both sides have their flaws, but the way it is now, Israel is definitely the worst part.

I agree there are problems on both sides but I'm not entirely sure Israel is "the worst part" they are just more organized and powerful. One of the things that makes Israel appear like a bully is that some people see this conflict as one big nation picking on a weaker neighbor. In reality, Israel has to defend itself and its people. What should they do when rockets are fired at them or suicide bombers target innocent people? They are obligated to act.

But ultimately if the Palestinians want peace they need to see that they are not gonna get peace and security by bombs and rockets. Israel is not going anywhere so the only option is to negotiate a peace. But it seems that the most vocal people in Palestine want it to get their way and destroy the state of Israel.

[chicah]

Originally Posted by elisheva (View Post) That may be the funniest thing I've heard all day. (Actually, it's not really funny.) Seriously? Can you actually say that with a straight face?

Yeah, why shouldn't I?

They are literally attacking each other's buildings, killing each other on the street. I'm not sure there will be progress when the Palestinians cannot unite on a path of peace. I feel so sorry for the people caught up in it but Israel and the international community cannot be expected to accept the current mess.

They can try to help. And I believe that it if it wasn't for Israel, none of this would've happened at all.

I agree there are problems on both sides but I'm not entirely sure Israel is "the worst part" they are just more organized and powerful. One of the things that makes Israel appear like a bully is that some people see this conflict as one big nation picking on a weaker neighbor. In reality, Israel has to defend itself and its people. What should they do when rockets are fired at them or suicide bombers target innocent people? They are obligated to act.

Well, I get the impression the Israeli's do not really care who they kill in their hunt to kill one terrorist. Who cares if ten children die, as long as they catch their suicide bomber. I do not really think Israel is "defending" themselves, they are the strongest force.

But ultimately if the Palestinians want peace they need to see that they are not gonna get peace and security by bombs and rockets. Israel is not going anywhere so the only option is to negotiate a peace. But it seems that the most vocal people in Palestine want it to get their way and destroy the state of Israel.

I think it's kind of a last resort, a desperate measure. They've tried negotiation. I do not think that all Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map, I mean, even Hamas accepted Israel as a state.

[Lexis]

Originally Posted by chicah (View Post) They can try to help. And I believe that it if it wasn't for Israel, none of this would've happened at all.

They can try. But clearly we need something better than what's come before...and what is that?

Well, I get the impression the Israeli's do not really care who they kill in their hunt to kill one terrorist. Who cares if ten children die, as long as they catch their suicide bomber. I do not really think Israel is "defending" themselves, they are the strongest force.

I think people care. But people also care what that suicide bomber will do if he slips through the net and boards and Israeli bus.

Just because you are strong does not mean that defense is unnecessary. Strong nations can still be attacked and threatened. Remember, this isn't the first time Israel has fought and it is a nation surrounded by hostile nations.

I think it's kind of a last resort, a desperate measure. They've tried negotiation. I do not think that all Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map, I mean, even Hamas accepted Israel as a state.

Uh, aren't they still a long way from that? I was googling to find more information and I came up with one article that said a step forward was coming (this was in 06) and another quoting a Hamas official who said that it wasn't an acceptance of Israel.

And acceptance needs to mean no more rockets and an enforced ceasefire. Not sure how that's gonna work out since the two major parties are fighting each other right now.

[*Ledi*]

I find myself to be so undecided on this issue. My opinion keeps changing, so I've pretty much decided to not take any sides anymore. I don't think any of us will ever know what is really going on in that region.

I just think that this whole thing is so sad. I wish it would stop already because so many innocent people keep dying for absolutely nothing.

[COOLCAT200]

Yasser Arafat in my opinion was a terrorist.