News & Politics - immigration

indium · 04-14-2004, 04:44 AM

As many of you no doubt know there's been a bit of a long-running stushy in the UK about immigration. This isn't so much of a quote a news article and get people's reponses to it post as a general 'what do people think about it' thing. As a current and important politcal issue I hope that sort of thing is still within the scope of the board!

What do you think about immigration, migrant workers, asylum seekers? When should it be allowed and when not? What does your country have to say about it? Has it had a personal impact on you?
I'm really just interested to know how people feel about the issue and how this varies across the world. :-)

Avatar · 04-14-2004, 08:00 AM

I think that everyone should have an inherent right to seek a better life for themselves elsewhere, and therefore, I think immigration isn't a problem as long as the immigrants follow the laws of the country in which they reside.

Related to this, I think the definision of the term "refugee" in the 1951 Refugee Convention is too narrow - not only does it exclude people persecuted for their sexual orientation, it also completely negates the many-faceted reasons people usually have to seek asylum elsewhere, and it's sometimes difficult to discern between people who flee their country due to a "well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion" and those who leave because they want a better life - the latter group isn't to be regarded as refugees, even if they sometimes are just as much in need of help as the first group. So the criteria for being able to recieve the status of an asylum seeker and given protection under the 1951 Convention, is too restrictive.

Hmm, I probably didn't answer the question. [img]smilies/look.gif[/img]

migamoo · 04-14-2004, 09:20 PM

i have nothing against immigration but i only wish people did it legally. i think countries should keep their borders more secure so that illegals cannot get it. and i know they do a lot of jobs that the citizens don't want to do, but they can do those same jobs if they are in the country legally too.
oh and this is kinda ontopic but maybe kinda off topic also, but i hate it when immigrants who come into the US get all the need they can get (medicare/medical assistance, foodstamps/welfare, ect) but when the citizens (americans) born and raised in the country need the same help, they can't get it. it baffles me and something really should be done about this.

*Juli* · 04-14-2004, 09:40 PM

My dad is an immigrant from Hong Kong. If he hadn't immigrated, he would have never had my mom. They would never have had 7 kids.

My parents worked 18 hour days. My dad paid his taxes like everyone else. He never went to the doctor. He never drew unemployment. He never took any form of social assistance. Neither my mom (who is Canadian, born and raised here) nor my dad ever did. We are very financially secure because my parents made good business decisions.

The way I see it, a lot of immigrants have to work twice as hard to "prove" themselves. There are many who take advantage but there are many who never do. These people who don't are only beneficial to a country and what the meaning of immigration stands for - the right to provide a good life for you and your family.

I guess you have to take the bad with the good. It's unfortunate that there are those who take advantage. There are also those who are NATIVE to the country and do this as well.

But what about those like my dad? Surely, he came over here to make a life with my mother and provide for his family by extremely hard 18 hour days then the 2 of them coming home to raise 7 kids.

My father coming over to Canada was never a bad thing and I am grateful every single day of my life for that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-14-2004: Message edited *Juli* ]

Avatar · 04-15-2004, 02:32 AM

It's hard to enter the US as a legal immigrant, though - the US have always been cherry-picking immigrants, electing to focus on helping the ones voting with their feet against communism, most of whom probably doen't fall under the definision of the term refugee as it's defined in the 1951 Convention, and being reluctant to accept other asylum-seekers, even if they're more in need of help.

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 09:31 AM

I was myself a political refugee according to the terms of the 1951 Refugee Convention.

I think illegal immigration is a problem for numerous reasons.
It is not human to see the traffic the dealers are doing over people who only want to seek a better place to live. The conditions of the journeys are horrible and most of them die during the trip.
And when they're in the country? That's even worse than in their original country. They have no legal protection, no health care, no existence at all. Lots of them are bound by modern slavery, and they can't even tell about it without denouncing their own situation.

Quote:

oh and this is kinda ontopic but maybe kinda off topic also, but i hate it when immigrants who come into the US get all the need they can get (medicare/medical assistance, foodstamps/welfare, ect) but when the citizens (americans) born and raised in the country need the same help, they can't get it. it baffles me and something really should be done about this.

I don't know if this is gonna help you on this particular issue, but I might have an explanation for this.
Imagine an illegal immigrant who has a very serious sickness that he brought up from his original country, or even a hygienic disease that he contracted from his awful conditions of living. Now you can guess that this ill illegal immigrant will not go seek medical help if he has to pay or if he has to reveal his identity. Now you can imagine the consequences if the illegal immigrant doesn't get free medical assistance on the country-born (American) population. Because most of immigrants will not go get medical help otherwise , it is somehow understandable that they get some 'priviledges'.

Now that said, I really think that everyone, immigrants or nationals, should get free medical assistance if necessary. I know that in France the medical system is different from the US and that free medical service is reachable to anyone who's in the need (immigrant, homeless people, jobless people without minumum revenu etc...). Of course we've got the worse debt ever when it comes to Health Service, but I guess it's the price to pay to get low fees for medical care.

migamoo · 04-15-2004, 11:09 AM

Stella I understand what you are saying. I just meant that it wasn't fair to the country-born citizens that they can't get help a lot of times when they need it but others can. Do you know what I mean?

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 12:29 PM

I do, I can assure you.
It baffles me too sometimes that I have to pay an awful amount of money for everything when other people get the service free.

Avatar · 04-15-2004, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StellaSlight:
I think illegal immigration is a problem for numerous reasons.

Illegal immigration is definately a problem, which is why more countries probably could practise externalised processing of asylum claims. This is when I might lose you, but I'll try to explain as well as I can - externalised processing of asylum claims basically gives the applicant the chance to seek asylum from his country of origin - eg. if I wanted to seek asylum in, say, France (since they're one of the countries that practise it), I would enter the French embassy and seek asylum from there. That way, I don't have to get to French soil to apply, which means that I don't have to a) pay smugglers a lot of money to get to France and b) don't have to stay in France indefinately while the application is being handled. The big drawback to this is of course that people who do have a well-founded fear would be put in jeopardy while waiting for an answer in their country of origin, so this have no easy solution.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fieryangel:
Stella I understand what you are saying. I just meant that it wasn't fair to the country-born citizens that they can't get help a lot of times when they need it but others can. Do you know what I mean?

I know you didn't direct this to me, but I think one shouldn't forget that immigrants haven't had the chance to build any sort of private health fund, and as long as health-care isn't free for all, which it should be, then I suppose that's the price you pay. It's probably not fair, but it's the fairest it can be under the circumstances.

[Edited because UBB-code doesn't like me [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]]

[ 04-15-2004: Message edited Avatar ]

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Avatar:
Illegal immigration is definately a problem, which is why more countries probably could practise externalised processing of asylum claims. This is when I might lose you, but I'll try to explain as well as I can - externalised processing of asylum claims basically gives the applicant the chance to seek asylum from his country of origin - eg. if I wanted to seek asylum in, say, France (since they're one of the countries that practise it), I would enter the French embassy and seek asylum from there. That way, I don't have to get to French soil to apply, which means that I don't have to a) pay smugglers a lot of money to get to France and b) don't have to stay in France indefinately while the application is being handled. The big drawback to this is of course that people who do have a well-founded fear would be put in jeopardy while waiting for an answer in their country of origin, so this have no easy solution.

This is the way my family asked for asylum -through the embassy. I totally agree this is the best way to apply for the status of refugee in one country. But the problem is that not everyone is a 'refugee' according to the 1951 Refugee Convention. There are lots who just want a better place to live, but they aren't facing oppression or the fear of persecution. Most of the time, the refugees are all granted the asylum of France, but as for the rest of the immigrants... that's another problem.

There are so many people applying through the 'normal' way (the embassy) that the country cannot let everyone in. I've seen figures of application for asylum in France and it's really impressive. In African countries, most of France's embassies receive like a thousand persons per day for an application.
And there's also the problem that many many people know they would not get a positive answer, so they choose the illegal way.

I'm not worried for refugees in general because they usually get to enter the country quite quickly. But like you said, there are other people who just want a better life. And those are usually the ones who are denied the access.

Jess519 · 04-16-2004, 09:00 PM

Don't know exactly where I stand on immigration, but I'm all for legal immigration.

And I do have some sympathy for those that immigrate illegally. Yeah we should crack down on it, but I also have a bit of respect for people willing to risk their lives and go though excessive hardships just to get into my country and better their lives. Not sure its something I'd have the guts to do. That said, illegal immigration is a problem. I'm just not sure of the best way to resolve it (I don't think just rounding everyone up and shipping them home, particularly the large number of Hispanic immigrants, is the best solution).

Quote:

Originally posted by Fieryangel:
also, but i hate it when immigrants who come into the US get all the need they can get (medicare/medical assistance, foodstamps/welfare, ect) but when the citizens (americans) born and raised in the country need the same help, they can't get it. it baffles me and something really should be done about this.

I'm not sure that this is true. Have you seen data that supports that idea?

I've read several books on the subject and I believe the vast majority of welfare recipients (I'm talking 80%+, though I have to look up the numbers to be sure) are white and African American non-immigrants. I don't think lots of immigrants are getting welfare/foodstamps.

It may be different in different states, but nationwide I just don't believe it's true.

[ 04-16-2004: Message edited Jess519 ]

*Ledi* · 04-16-2004, 09:42 PM

god... I don't even want to talk about this because right now... me and my mom are having problems about this whole thing. she moved here years ago and guess what? we are being asked to leave Canada or something? I really don't know what's going on but what I do know is that this is all bull*****... how some immigrants are treated and stuff. its pure crap. its not like we are harming anyone or anything ... like many other people who have immigrated here... so why would they ask us to leave? I just really don't get it.

but anyway sorry yeah I know that's totally off topic but I needed to get it off of my chest because yeah I've been really depressed about the whole thing lately. it seems like I have no control over my life anymore which is pretty *****ty. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

*Ledi* · 04-16-2004, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StellaSlight:


I'm not worried for refugees in general because they usually get to enter the country quite quickly. But like you said, there are other people who just want a better life. And those are usually the ones who are denied the access.

that's exactly what we're going through. my mom came here because she wanted a better life for me and now after all these years... she's basically been denied the right to live here any longer for no reason?

this is just so messed up. but wow ok.. I've shared enough information, lol.

[ 04-16-2004: Message edited *Ledi* ]

*Sooz* · 04-17-2004, 10:02 AM

To be honest, this issue has pushed me into an Anti-Blair position. I think his ways of dealing with this problem are ridiculous. Making deals with the Romanians so he can manipulate immigrant statistics, letting thousands of illegal immigrants getting lost in the system etc etc. We need tighter controls over the borders.

SuperDeluxe · 04-17-2004, 05:53 PM

Time for America to put a clamp down on immigration, and have some serious security measures and limits on immigration.

We are like swiss cheese, anyone can come in, and it makes the country less safe.