News & Politics - Gitmo labeled "death camp" by Sen. Durbin

WalkingOnSunshine · 06-16-2005, 01:05 PM

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The Senate's No. 2 Democrat has compared the U.S. military's treatment of a suspected al Qaeda terrorist at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay with the regimes of Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Pol Pot, three of history's most heinous dictators, whose regimes killed millions.

In a speech on the Senate floor late Tuesday, Minority Whip Richard J. Durbin, Illinois Democrat, castigated the American military's actions by reading an e-mail from an FBI agent.

The agent complained to higher-ups that one al Qaeda suspect was chained to the floor, kept in an extremely cold air-conditioned cell and forced to hear loud rap music. The Justice Department is investigating.

About 9 million persons, including 6 million Jews, died in Hitler's death camps, 2.7 million persons died in Stalin's gulags and 1.7 million Cambodians died in Pol Pot's scourge of his country.

No prisoners have died at Guantanamo, and the Pentagon has acknowledged five instances of abuse or irreverent handling of the Koran, the holy book of Muslims.

After reading the e-mail, Mr. Durbin said, "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

Mr. Durbin also likened the treatment of terror suspects at the prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq to President Franklin D. Roosevelt's decision to authorize the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II.

"It took us almost 40 years for us to acknowledge that we were wrong, to admit that these people should never have been imprisoned. It was a shameful period in American history," Mr. Durbin said. "I believe the torture techniques that have been used at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and other places fall into that same category."

The White House yesterday reacted angrily to Mr. Durbin's remarks.
"It's reprehensible, as Defense Secretary [Donald H.] Rumsfeld said, to suggest that the Guantanamo Bay facility is anything like a gulag or a mad regime or Pol Pot," White House spokesman Trent Duffy told The Washington Times.

"It is reprehensible, has no place in the current debate, and as we've seen over several years, the detainees in Guantanamo Bay are being treated humanely," he said. "What this is is a disservice to any man and woman serving in the U.S. military who's putting their life on the line each day, because they're trying to paint all military with a broad brush because of the actions of perhaps a few bad apples, who are being punished severely."

At the Pentagon, Rumsfeld spokesman Larry Di Rita said of Mr. Durbin's remarks: "I didn't hear what he said, but any such comparison would obviously be outrageous and not remotely connected with reality."

Rest of article here - http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...827r_page2.htm

The comparison of Gitmo to Nazis, Soviets, and Pol Pot is unwise and dangerous. It is statments like Durbin's that cause more and more problems for the US than helping it. Durbin's comments strike me as someone looking to get his face & especially name in the press for notice. I just don't understand it. No one - not a single person has been killed while at Gitmo. Yet, millions were murdered under the regimes that Durbin cited. There is simply no comparison. Such a statment to be made by the Senate's number 2 Democrat is very disappointing and absurd.

AlexEvans · 06-16-2005, 01:21 PM

This is extremely disappointing. It's a propaganda coup for America's enemies, a disgrace to the Democratic Party, and an insult to the victims of the actual death camps.

I hope that the Democratic leadership surprises me and repudiates these remarks.

*Lauren · 06-16-2005, 07:45 PM

While I think that Gitmo is disgusting and should be shut down, to compare it to Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot is stupid. There's no comparison whatsoever, and he should read up on his history before making those emotional claims.

TokyoNiGHTS · 06-16-2005, 07:53 PM

That Di Rita guy is a bit crazy too

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"And the way they are describing it is unfortunate, and in some places I believe those people will regret having made those kind of comments," Di Rita added.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...mo_pentagon_dc

Oh really?

Milt Palacio · 06-16-2005, 08:30 PM

I don't think Durbin's comments were very bright, but I will say that he is a very good Senator for his state and one of the best in the Congress. He continually votes in the best interests of the average American and is in touch with the problems of the every day middle class American.

By the way, the media didn't even bat an eyelash when Rick Santorum compared the fillibustering of judicial nominees to the actions of Nazis in WWII Germany on the Senate floor. You never heard a word about it.

I guess the media is not so liberal after all?

Lexis · 06-17-2005, 01:29 AM

When WalkingOnSunshine posted the story, the title of the article was "Gitmo labeled death camp by Sen. Durbin." Except now, the Washington Times had to change it because Senator Durbin did not call Gitmo a death camp. Hence the new title of :

"Gitmo Called Death Camp."

I also think its interesting that the White House is so very concerned about the effect these comments will have on the troops when they seem uninterested in answering straight questions posed by reporters in regard to what constitutues "last throes".

ceilirose · 06-17-2005, 03:14 AM

So the only person/entity that has called Gitmo a "death camp" is the headline writer at the Washington Times? When is that person going to apologize to the White House?

What do you expect from a newspaper that is owned by Rev. Moon. Not much.

ETA - this is the e-mail from the FBI agent:

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On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

It's interesting that the focus is on Durbin's comments and not what is actually alleged by a law enforcement officer of the United States. We're becoming a nation split between those who are appalled by these charges and those who are only appalled when they are made public.

AlexEvans · 06-17-2005, 08:37 AM

I suggest reading Durbin's comments. He made the allegation, not the headline writer.

It's one thing to debate exactly how we should treat captured terrorists, exactly what balance between their comfort and our security we should reach. That's part of the job of our government and our legislators. It's quite another to use the kind of language Durbin did. His comparison is indefensible.

I read plenty about Santorum, btw.

ceilirose · 06-17-2005, 09:03 AM

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Originally Posted by AlexEvans

I suggest reading Durbin's comments. He made the allegation, not the headline writer.

I did read his whole speech from Tuesday. Nowhere that I can see did he use the term "death camp" as alleged by the Washington Times. Quotation marks still indicate exact quotes don't they? The title of this thread and the article were and are incorrect but let's not revisit the dynamics of changing a thread title at this board again and the resulting angst that it causes.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...me=2005_record

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It's one thing to debate exactly how we should treat captured terrorists, exactly what balance between their comfort and our security we should reach. That's part of the job of our government and our legislators. It's quite another to use the kind of language Durbin did. His comparison is indefensible.

There's no debate going on in this country about the treatment of detainees on a national level. That includes the media and our elected officials. The spin from the WH is to shoot the messenger instead of the message and so far it's working quite well.

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I read plenty about Santorum, btw.

Where was the outrage from the WH and other elected Republican leaders about that statement?

Lexis · 06-17-2005, 09:11 AM

AlexEvans, can you find Durbin quote saying that Guantanamo is a "death camp"? Thos exact two words, in that order, referring to Guantanamo? Cause I've read the Washington Times article (twice now) and articles about this story in other papers and I can not seem to find him using those words.

He does however say that the brutality shown to prisoners in Guantanamo are akin to those we would expect from wicked regimes through the years - he references gulags in paticular.

Why did the Washington Times change their headline if Durbin truly had made that claim? It would seem a complete waste of time - and in a newsroom, you don't waste time.

Since these comparisons bother you, I assume you disapproved of Santorum's quotes? And those made by Pat Buchanan during the Terri Schiavo media circus?

As Jon Stewert pointed out on The Daily Show, comparing people to Hitler and/or Nazis is pointless. It demeans you, it demeans your opponant and it trivialises the great evils perpertuated by Hitler.

Edited to say: I haven't changed the thread title because it was correct when it was posted - it was the Washington Times who later changed it.

ceilirose · 06-17-2005, 09:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Lexis

Edited to say: I haven't changed the thread title because it was correct when it was posted - it was the Washington Times who later changed it.

At this point the damage has been done. From what I've read Fox News broadcast the death camp label for a good part of yesterday. People have got it into their heads that yet another Democratic made a 'crazy' statement courtesy of the Right's spin. Even though the Washington Times has changed their article title they didn't mention their error. It's what poses for the media these days. *shrug*

WalkingOnSunshine · 06-17-2005, 09:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Lexis

When WalkingOnSunshine posted the story, the title of the article was "Gitmo labeled death camp by Sen. Durbin." Except now, the Washington Times had to change it because Senator Durbin did not call Gitmo a death camp. Hence the new title of :

"Gitmo Called Death Camp."

I also think its interesting that the White House is so very concerned about the effect these comments will have on the troops when they seem uninterested in answering straight questions posed by reporters in regard to what constitutues "last throes".

I find the White House needing to do PR control for these kind of damaging comments made by Senators. If the White House did not comment and speak out against what Durbin said it might seem as though they believe what he said as well.

I have to say I made a mistake with the title not the Washington Times. The thread should be "Gitmo called Death Camp". I was looking at the Drudge Report when I posted the article and I thought Durbin had directly said "death camp". I made a mistake sorry about that. It can be changed if ya'll want.

Even though Durbin did not directly called Gitmo a death camp he again said:

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"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said.

I bolded what I thought was important. So yes, Durbin did not say Gitmo is a death camp. Yet he compares it to those three examples which were basically death camps. Anyway.

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Originally Posted by *Lauren

While I think that Gitmo is disgusting and should be shut down, to compare it to Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot is stupid. There's no comparison whatsoever, and he should read up on his history before making those emotional claims.

Why exactly do you think Gitmo is disgusting? And, if it were to be shut down then what do you think we should do with people that would otherwise have been sent to Gitmo?

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Originally Posted by ceilirose

It's interesting that the focus is on Durbin's comments and not what is actually alleged by a law enforcement officer of the United States. We're becoming a nation split between those who are appalled by these charges and those who are only appalled when they are made public.

It is also interesting thast the focus from Democrats is to say nothing against what Durbin said. Being that he is the Senate's number 2 Democrat it almost seems as though he is speaking for the entire party. We're also becoming a nation that is split between protecting ourselves and those that want to keep up a nice image of being polite and kind to enemies such as those currently housed at Gitmo.

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Originally Posted by ceilirose

There's no debate going on in this country about the treatment of detainees on a national level. That includes the media and our elected officials. The spin from the WH is to shoot the messenger instead of the message and so far it's working quite well.

How would you suggest treating the detainees? I say those at Gitmo are being treated a lot better than they would be in their own country even. The US continues to keep up the image of politeness even to those that are trying to harm us. Should we treat detainees with respect and honor? Personally I don't think so, but that is just me.

Where is the outrage from Democrats against Durbin's comments?

ceilirose · 06-17-2005, 10:42 AM

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Originally Posted by WalkingOnSunshine

I bolded what I thought was important. So yes, Durbin did not say Gitmo is a death camp. Yet he compares it to those three examples which were basically death camps. Anyway.

But he didn't say those words..that's my point. You and others can imply anything you want but those exact words were not said.

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It is also interesting thast the focus from Democrats is to say nothing against what Durbin said. Being that he is the Senate's number 2 Democrat it almost seems as though he is speaking for the entire party. We're also becoming a nation that is split between protecting ourselves and those that want to keep up a nice image of being polite and kind to enemies such as those currently housed at Gitmo.

I've always thought that everyone speaks for themselves unless otherwise indicated. We don't know for sure whether those detainees at Gitmo are 'enemies'. As far as I know some have spent years there without being charged. Also none have been charged, tried and convicted of any act against the US either.

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How would you suggest treating the detainees? I say those at Gitmo are being treated a lot better than they would be in their own country even. The US continues to keep up the image of politeness even to those that are trying to harm us. Should we treat detainees with respect and honor? Personally I don't think so, but that is just me.

It isn't a matter of suggesting how the detainees are to be treated. The United States Congress made the Geneva Conventions the law of this land. Some are suggesting that because these detainnes are 'terrorists' that the usual laws don't apply. This country had the same problem during Vietnam and it was decided to follow the Geneva Conventions because of who we are and the image that we want to portray. We as a country are better than having these detainees urinate on themselves or having fake menstrual blood smeared on them by women pretending to be prostitutes just so they'll break and give us information. Every expert on interrogation that I've heard over the last two years has emphatically said that information gained from torture is almost always useless.

It would help if these detainees were actually charged with something so we could find out if they were terrorists but that seems to be out of vogue.

I worry when US soldiers are captured by terrorists and they are subjected to the same type of behavior. What moral and legal right do we have to complain about torture when we're doing it ourselves.

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Where is the outrage from Democrats against Durbin's comments?

Some may have disagreed with it but I think most just saw it as another example of shooting the messenger instead of discussing the real problem. Create a diversion, send the talking heads out to constantly repeat the fact that Durbin is out of control instead of actually talking about the continuing stream of torture out of these camps and pretty soon the incident blows over.

Lexis · 06-17-2005, 10:57 AM

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Originally Posted by WalkingOnSunshine

I find the White House needing to do PR control for these kind of damaging comments made by Senators. If the White House did not comment and speak out against what Durbin said it might seem as though they believe what he said as well.

A response to Durbin is one thing - its the job of the press sec. to respond to the news of the day, to present the White House's position etc. No problem. What does irritate me is that fact that they don't hold everyone to the same standard - I don't remember them speaking out when Republicans have used Hitler/Nazi references.

If you're gonna take a stand on an issue, then that stand has to be consistant.

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I have to say I made a mistake with the title not the Washington Times. The thread should be "Gitmo called Death Camp". I was looking at the Drudge Report when I posted the article and I thought Durbin had directly said "death camp". I made a mistake sorry about that. It can be changed if ya'll want.

I don't think it was you - the article was orginally titled the way you titled it in this thread. Its not your fault, its the Washington Times.

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I bolded what I thought was important. So yes, Durbin did not say Gitmo is a death camp. Yet he compares it to those three examples which were basically death camps. Anyway.

Durbin was expressing the opinon - widely held by many people - that America is not a country you associate with torture. I sure as hell don't like the idea of America, a country that I don't live in but love, being seen as cruel and unjust. He was saying that surely, we should not accept the conditions described in the e-mail as America is better than that.

And Nazis and Pol Pot were people, not death camps. They were not only murderers - thousands and thousands of people suffered through their violence and intimidation, not just those who were confined to camps.

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Why exactly do you think Gitmo is disgusting? And, if it were to be shut down then what do you think we should do with people that would otherwise have been sent to Gitmo?

I personally have no objection to the US holding people it believes have been/are planning attacks against the US. However, I object to people being held without trial, in brutal conditions, without proper due process being observed. The British detainees that had been held for varying periods up to 3 years were given no apology for being held. They were just released - years after they'd been captured - and found themselves facing kids that didn't even recognise them.

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It is also interesting thast the focus from Democrats is to say nothing against what Durbin said. Being that he is the Senate's number 2 Democrat it almost seems as though he is speaking for the entire party. We're also becoming a nation that is split between protecting ourselves and those that want to keep up a nice image of being polite and kind to enemies such as those currently housed at Gitmo.

I believe Lauren expressed her view that Durbin was wrong. If believe I indicated that I didn't agree either. Except Durbin did not say that Guantanamo was a death camp and he did smear troops. He just pointed out that the situation in Guantanamo is not something you would thing America would be involved in since America isn't being run by Hitler, Pol Pot or Stalin.

I also thing the split you mentioned is simplistic - I really don't think Democrats are praying for the day when America is attacked again. Its insulting to suggest that just because you don't believe in holding people without trial with no justification, you don't want America to be safe.

And as for the enemies comment - have they been tried, proven to be terrorists? Would you call all those prisoners that have been released after years enemies, even when your government found nothing after all their interrogations? Its subjective and while they haven't been tried, they are innocent in the eyes of the law.

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Should we treat detainees with respect and honor? Personally I don't think so, but that is just me.

Respect for human life - isn't that what Republicans are big on? I'll say again, these people have not been tried. How on earth can we assume they are guilty when it has been proven that mistakes have been made in the past?

If detainees are tried, if they are allowed representation, if they are then found guilty - fine. Lets put them in prison and punish them. Lets show those terrorists who are still free that America is better than them - that the US is a civilised nation and will track down and imprison anyone who attempts to attack them.

I personally think that Guantanamo just adds fuel to the fire - Al Qaeda recruiters can say "Hey! Look at the infidels, the barbarians locking up Muslims without trial, torturing them! Join our war against them!" Osama Bin Laden can sit in his freakin' cave knowing that America is just making itself a more and more attractive scapegoat for millions of disaffected Muslims around the world who would otherwise turn their anger against the leaders that keep them oppressed.

But that's just me.

TokyoNiGHTS · 06-17-2005, 12:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Lexis

Respect for human life - isn't that what Republicans are big on? I'll say again, these people have not been tried. How on earth can we assume they are guilty when it has been proven that mistakes have been made in the past?

The whole Pro Life thing is only true when it benefits them. Just look at how many of them were trying to prevent Terri Schiavo's being taken off the tube who're in favor of the death penalty.


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