chicah

The old thread was called "Gay adoption - a right or a moral sin" and is found here.

While the topic was meant to be about gay adoption, it eventually spun more into gay rights in general and how homosexuals are looked upon in the society.

Here are some of the last posts in the thread:

mild_toxicity said:
California_here_I_come said:
Fitzroy said:

Fitzroy replied to Jacob1983's post, which is:

Fitzroy's reply: That is the silliest thing I've ever heard! I haven't heard of people wanting to marry their pets! It has nothing to do with the topic

So now, just debate away

Jacob1983

Gay people shouldn't get special treatment i.e. affirmative action. I know this probably sounds mean but if gay people in America want more rights and freedom they might suggest moving to more liberal places like Canada and Europe. They will have a better chance of being allowed to get married and adopt in those places than they will in America.

Btw, life isn't fair. Sometimes it sucks and you get screwed.

Indian Summer

But you'll complain every time a Christian isn't allowed to pray in a public place, right?

Anyway, America is a pretty liberal place- more liberal than a lot of Europe, so I really don't get where you come up with these things. Or do you only consider western Europe to be Europe? *shrug*

Anyway, gays don't benefit from affirmative action. In fact, sexuality is supposed to have no play whatsoever in who gets a job or gets into a school and so on.

nopal

Or they could just continue to work to get their rights here, where they can live surrounded by the friends and family that they grew up with if they so desire.

Jacob1983

Honestly, I could care less if a Christian or Christians aren't allowed to pray in public. That's just how America is. We have too many fundamentalists trying to pick apart everything in America to suffice their own agenda.

Trust me, Europe is more liberal than America. I believe that in France, they actually pay straight couples to have sex because there is a large majority of homosexuals. Canada is definately more liberal than America. In some parts of Canada, gays can get married and adopt children. Also, in some parts of Canada owning and smoking pot is okay.

Why fight a losing battle?

Indian Summer

Hah... oh, Lord, how much of Europe have you been to? And have you ever been to France because your version of the French is insanely off? They oppose homosexual marriage and homosexual adoption. And there's certainly not a majority of gays there.

Then, take into account eastern Europe, which does exist even if you don't commonly think of it. There's country there where honor killings still happen over things like "impure"women who lose their virginity before marriage. Gays are stoned to death.

Jacob1983

I've seen the stuff on CNN. Yep, CNN. Not FOX News. You telling me that France is super conservative? Their country has one of the largest populations of atheists in the world.


I have never been to Europe because I'm poor(wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth). If you buy me a plane ticket, I will go to Europe in a heart beat.

This is interesting
Marriage and Civil Unions
Legislation designed to create provisions for gay marriage in a number of countries has polarized international opinion and led to many well-publicized political debates and court battles in a number of countries. By 2006 the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada and South Africa had legalized same-sex marriage; in the United States, only Massachusetts had legalized gay marriage while the states of Vermont, Connecticut, and New Jersey allowed civil unions.[45] Maine, California, and Hawaii, as well as the District of Columbia, offer domestic partnerships.

Other countries, including the majority of European nations, have enacted laws allowing civil unions, designed to give gay couples similar rights as married couples concerning legal issues such as inheritance and immigration. Numerous Scandinavian countries have had domestic partnership laws on the books since the late 1980s. In the United States, the framing of the debate around marriage rather than civil unions may have been partly responsible for the defeat of a number of measures by sparking opposition from many conservative and religious groups. For example, in California, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has stated that he supports full legal protection for gay couples - but that the issue of gay marriage is best decided by the people or in the courts.[46]

Homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

chicah

Jacob, you are the one who seems to be fighting a losing battle here. Fair enough, Europe is quite liberal. Here in Norway gays are allowed to adopt and marry and I think it should be that way.
Love is love no matter the gender.
When two adults love each other, how can that be wrong?

The world is moving. Deal with it.

Indian Summer

Jacob, I never said France was super conservative. You, however, implied that they were so liberal that the majority of the population was gay. That's plain wrong.

I'd strongly advise you look into those civil unions. In each country- in each state- a civil union holds a different degree of meaning. In many of those European countries, it's literally nothing more than a title, and in others it's unattainable.

Jacob1983

I can tolerate it but I won't accept it or deal with it. If a person wants to be gay then that's their thing but don't expect me to be a gay pride parade or be at a gay rally.
My religious beliefs teach that homosexuality is a sin. And I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Do I believe that gays and lesbians go straight to Hell? Nope, because the Bible clearly states that if you deny Jesus as your savior and don't believe in God and Jesus then you will go to Hell.
I don't think homosexuality is a mental disorder but I do think it's a moral emotional struggle. I also think it's more of a choice. I don't think gay people should be forced to go to counseling or camps to degay themselves. However, if they feel in their consciences that being is gay wrong then I see nothing wrong with them wanting to be in therapy for it. People aren't forced to love who they are attracted to. I have been attracted to many women in my lifetime but that doesn't mean I am forced to be with them. Honestly, if you look at my track record, you would probably say that I'm not gay or straight. You have a choice in the game of love. There is a thing called a marriage proposal which is basically a yes or no question. The man never holds a gun to his girlfriend and says "you either marry me or I will shoot you in the head".

chicah

Jacob, that is my point exactly - your beliefs- Should they be imposed on the world and deprive people of their choices? Should we discriminate one group of people because and old book written two thousand years ago says so? One of our teachers is gay and he is a really nice man. I know how sad he gets that people discriminate against him just because he's gay and he pisses me off. I doubt you know much gay people, it doesn't seem that way from your attitude. Or, let me guess - you try to keep at least half a mile away from those perverted monsters.

Jacob1983

Actually, I see homosexuals all the time at my college. And I have worked at places that hire gays and lesbians. There weren't ever any problems. They did their things and I did mine so we were good. I will be honest and say that most of the homosexuals that I have encountered recently and in my lifetime try to draw attention to themselves. I'll admit that I don't have any gay friends but then again I don't really have any friends. Besides, how many people in America can honestly say they have a friend or best friend that is gay? For me, it's not like I go out of my way to not be friends with gays. It's just I've never had any gay people want to be my friend. LOL
I wouldn't really know what to talk about or what to do if I had a gay friend.

And politicians are suppose to to represent the people. Last time I checked in America, people are predominantly Christian and straight. Different strokes for different folks.

A marriage/wedding with a man and man just doesn't look right to me. When I picture a wedding in my head, I always think of a bride and groom. And I can bet you nine times of ten that when say a woman announces she is engaged, people automatically assume she is straight and ask "who's the lucky guy".

sunnykerr

Just wanted to clarify one other small discrepancy about the portrayal of Canada...

It is legal for gay people to marry and adopt in all of Canada.

Marijuana is however very much still illegal. However, it is generally "tolerated." Which means that truants found with minimal amounts (clearly allowing no more than personal use) will not be prosecuted. This way valuable police hours aren't wasted arresting and detaining recreational users. The courts are bogged down by cases that, ultimately, end up in warnings and minimal fines anyway. And the judicial system can focus on traffickers and whatnot.

Also, medical marijuana is allowed when it comes with a prescription. And, In 2005, a plant-derived mouth spray for neuropathic pain of multiple sclerosis sufferers.

Now, can someone explain to me how something can be tolerated when it's not accepted or dealt with?

Jacob1983

You can tolerate something and not accept it. I can tolerate gay people and deal with them but I will not accept that their lifestyle is normal and morally okay. If they want to be that way, then fine but don't expect me to be at the rallies or parades.

Indian Summer

All I get out of this is you don't know why you're voting (if you are voting). Politicians are supposed to represent the people's wishes. That's why those straight Christian politicians in Vermont, Massachusetts, and a few other states are giving gays rights. That's why even more states refused to totally outlaw gay marriage/unions.