Lexis

On the Political Satire thread, we ambled into a discussion on feminism and elisheva suggested a thread on the topic. I think there's lots of room for discussion as it seems people see feminism very diffirently from each other here.

I think its important to say that feminism is not one set idealogy - take a look at this article from wikipedia to get a list of some of the diffirent strands: Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are some common concerns/issues though:

I'm a feminist, probably closest to the liberal mould. Pro-choice, concerned about access to health/child care and oppurtunities for success.

So, what's your take on feminism? Are you a feminist? What are you concerns? Do you think feminism still has a place in society? Do you think men can be feminist? (I do!) Do you think feminism is a harmful idealogy?

xanderscoobie

I think feminism is good in some ways and bad in others. I guess I couldn't be a feminist since I'm pro life. Is it even possible for a male to be a feminist? Can pro life supporters be feminists? I will admit that I don't know that much about feminism. I personally think that feminism kinda promotes discrimination. That's just my opinion though.

sportsfangirl

I'm not so sure that I'd call myself a feminist, but I definately agree with some of the things that they stand for. (I agree with you wholeheartedly, Bethany).

Jacob1983

I'm also pro life. And I think that feminism does promote discrimination in a way. However, I do think feminism has helped women come a long way since the 1920s. Can I ever become a feminist or am I excluded because I'm a guy?

Papri

I believe a feminist is anyone who wants to see women hold a respected and equally valid position to men in society.

I think it's very sad that people who are pro-life or male feel uneasy/are unsure if they can be considered feminist or not. Of course they can, why shouldn't they, if they want equality between the sexes?

I think the 1980s typical ideals of feminism-bordering-on-male bashing was harmful to the feminist cause as it became almost caricatured, and that affects feminism and the way it is perceived even today.

What bothers me the most is when supposed "feminists" lash out at women who make a personal choice to do something that is generally seen as "giving in" to the female stereotype - ie, stay at home mums, those who want children over career and so on. Although thankfully this appears to be changing, it's sad that some so-called feminists caused other women to feel inadequate for their life-choices. You can be a housewife and be a feminist or a career woman and a feminist - as long as all you want is equal validation and recognition then surely that's the most important thing? Women's needs certainly aren't always the same as men's, and so merely the token word "equality" isn't enough, but the needs should be catered for accordingly.

Dana_Lana

Well I am Pro-Life, so I am not sure I am really a feminist by some standards. Although I think a woman should be able to do anything a man can do in this world and I would LOVE to see a woman president one day!
I think men and women are equal and should have the same rights and respect.

AlexEvans

I'm a classical feminist; I believe strongly that men and women are by nature equal, and that this should be reflected in equality of opportunity in society. There's at least one woman I'd love to see become President.

I'm not a post-modernist, and I find the 'feminist' theories regarding great psychological differences between men and women - whether the conclusion is 'different but equal' or 'women are better' unconvincing and distasteful. I'm also bothered by some of the activist organizations that claim the mantle of 'feminist.'

I'm strongly pro-choice, which I guess is somewhat related.

I don't think the state should penalize other choices either, as with whether women work out of the home or raise the kids full-time. I think either choice is valid and a benefit to society, so tax measures etc should not penalize/reward either one.

It's very interesting to read the responses here. The divide/confusion between classical feminism and the po-mo offshoots is still very influential.

Jacob1983

Women and men are definately equal more than they were say back in the 1960s,1950s or even 1920s. I know that violent crimes still happen to women. But women aren't that oppressed in my opinion. Btw, violent crimes don't just happen to women. They also happen to men too and they happen to all types of people. It doesn't matter what your gender, age, religion, race, or sexual orientation is. I do think that women are capable of most jobs that men can do. However, I don't think women should be given just because of their genders and because companies don't want to appear discriminatory. I have said this before and I will say it again. Affirmative action does not work. It further segregates people than they already were.

I do think that women should have same rights as men but why do they have to have their own group or movement?

Cause if men wanted to started their own male movement, then that would be awful and sexist. It just sounds like a double standard to me.
Women can have their own movement but men can't.

I know that people will get mad but I have always thought the pro-choice stand is very sexist. It clearly only gives regard to the woman since she is carrying the baby. It's like the father has no say at all eventhough biology and science state that it takes two people to make a baby. I think some women believe they are all powerful and superior because they have the ability to have babies.
I just don't support the pro-choice movement because unborn babies deserve a chance at life. I do believe that some extreme circumstances abortion is understandable. But in the majority of the cases, women should not be allowed to terminate their unborn babies.
From a psychological standpoint, I don't see how a woman can live with herself after she's had an abortion. I have read many cases where a lot of women often become very depressed and guilt ridden after they've had an abortion. Men have rights to their babies as much as women do. Not all men leave their women after they get pregnant. I do believe that there are some decent responsible guys left in America.

sum1

I prefer to call myself an equalist, because gender equality isn't just a female issue. I'm in favor of total gender equality. I think the US should have passed that equality bill way back when.

On specific issues, I'm pro-choice and I'm concerned about the status and treatment of women in "developing" countries (female genital mutilation comes in there).

Lexis

I think you can be - IIRC, Patricia Heaton (Debroah on Everybody Loves Raymond) is part of a feminist group that is anti-abortion.

I think men can be feminists (although probably not in the radical mould as that branch thinks men are inherently oppressive) in that a lot of men don't support rape, domestic abuse, discrimination etc. If you are a man and want women to be equal partners in society, I think that makes you a feminist.

I totally agree.

In another thread, your point out that no woman had be President and theorised it might be to do with the tradition/ people feel safer with a man in charge arguments. Until people see a woman as equally capable to be President as a man, there is still an inequality.

Feminism exists because it is still needed. It has changed what it means to be a woman. My grandmother married my grandfather, had four children and had no choice about getting a career or pursuing higher education. She was beaten by him throughout their marriage (more than 65 years) and she couldn't talk to the postman because of her husband's jealously. In later years, she told my mother she would have divorced him if she could.

Cut to me, 21 years old, getting a degree, aspiring for a career. If a man beat me I'd be out the door and onto the police so fast his head would spin. Because of feminism, I'm in a far more liberated position that my grandmother.

Men didn't need to make the journey and right now in our society, they tend to hold the levers of power. When there is equality for all, feminism will not be needed in his campaigning form.

But only one can carry it inside their body for 9 months. If a woman is pregnant, there are a whole range of physical, emotional and psychological effects. And who has the right to tell us we should just get on with it if we don't want too? My body, my choice. Sounds brutal but it's what I think.

I'm with on that. I think FGM is quite possibly one of the most violent crimes that be committed against a woman. When you read the stories of these girls, it just breaks your heart.

sum1

There's still plenty of oppression against women. And that's just in the west. In the "developing" world inequality against women is massive. Also, in both the west and the developing world there are also areas of inequality against men.

Actually, while rape happens to women more than to men, violent crimes overall happen to men more often than to women. Particularly stuff like murder. You just hear about it more often when it's done to women. Also, as regards rape, there is a massive amount of male rape in men's prisons (there is rape in women's prisons but much less) and it's mostly ignored, people don't want to bother with the issue. Send a guy to prison and he has a good chance of getting raped (and maybe getting aids). Men tend to get longer sentences in prison than women for the same crimes, so men in prison have plenty time to get raped.


Women can do any job men can do. However some women may fail at some jobs men do (like a small weak woman failing at a job that requires heavy lifting) but some men may fail at those jobs too (a small weak man failing at a job requiring heavy lifting). There should be no discrimination against women trying to get into jobs, but there should be no exceptions made either. For example there's long been a debate over women becoming firefighters because some women won't be able carry people out of burning buildings like firefighters need to (some men won't be able to do the carrying either -those men wouldn't be allowed to join the firefighters). There has been a push in favor of allowing women who can't do the carrying to join anyway. One feminist even suggested people should be DRAGGED out rather than carried out. But you can't go messing around with the business of carrying people out of burning buildings, a firefighter unable to do that job can cost lives. Women should be allowed to become firefighters IF they can do the carrying, same standard as for men, no discrimination, no exceptions or special treatment.

Similarly women should be allowed to become combat troops. But the draft shouldn't treat women differently. As of now in US men (only men, not women) have to register for the draft at age 18 or else they can be thrown into prison. And remember that prison can mean rape (and rape can mean aids). Either both genders should have the draft or neither should. Preferably nobody should get drafted.

Actually there are mens movements, and yes they are often viewed as sexist. Of course they often are sexist, but the same is true of a lot of feminism. Ideally men and women should work TOGETHER for the equality of both genders and to erase all unfair gender treatment.

The baby is in the mother not the father. That means it HAS to be her choice.

What about women having a chance at life as more than just baby-making machines? Pro-choice is essential.

That sort of feminism is not restricted to the 80s, it's still a major part of feminism today. And it doesn't just BORDER on male bashing, it goes the whole way. We're talking about a type of feminism that could come up with views like women are rape victims by nature and men are rapists by nature (like much anti-male feminism, that's full of anti-female sexism as well). Another view is that our society is so male-dominated that a woman's consent to sex is meaningless, so all cases of male-female sex count as coerced and ultimately as rape.

Some quotes:

"Heterosexual intercourse is pure formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." (Note: "patriarchal society" includes western society)

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act"

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release"

"All men are good for is f---ing and running over with a truck."

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoe shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."

"All men are rapists and that's all they are"

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."

It's important to stress that there is plenty feminism that is not like this and is not sexist.

People don't tend to be aware what this consists of so here's what's done: The clitoris and the outer and inner labia are cut away and the walls of the vagina are scraped with something sharp like a piece of glass or a knife, then the girl's legs are bound together so that walls of the vagina can grow together. The mutilation can cause troubles with childbirth and can cause fistulas that cause the victim to leak urine and faeces. With childbirth the changes caused by the mutilation can endanger both the baby and the mother and can leave the mother with holes in her urethra or bowels, damaged in nerves and lamed. Female genital mutilation happens in more than 30 countries.

Papri

FGM is just shocking. I seriously can't see how anyone can condone it in any circumstance. The purpose is to minimise a female's sexual pleasure; and unlike male circumcision (which can have some medical benefits and doesnt affect enjoyment or function) it has no positive side to it whatsoever.

And those quotes by "feminists" are just absurd, and further perpetrate the idea that feminism has to equate male-bashing. I'm a feminist. I love guys.

froggiepopple

Those quotes that sum1 provided are just disgustig and very far from the truth. All of these quotes scream victim complex to me and I hate the victim complex. If someone has been abused then she needs to go out and get professional help even if it takes them the rest of her life. Unfortunatley not everyone can afford therapy and I understand that, however that does not give her the right to accuse all men of being rapists. I am a survivor of child molestation and it took years of therapy for me to get where I am today. Even though I was not giving a choice by the man that molested me when I was 8 years old, I was given a choice of going down the painful route and getting therapy or taking the easy road and hating all men. I chose the former. What I do not understand if I could have done why could not have these women that came up with these quotes do it? Even before I started getting professional help I never once thought all men were rapists. I do not understand why so many people seem to follow the "if all dogs are animals, then all animals are dogs" frame of thinking? Of course this situation doesn't completely fall into that category since not all rapists are men.

AlexEvans

FGM is really castration. It's awful that something like that happens at all, let alone on a wide scale.

I think that Jacob does have a point regarding choice. I think it's up to the woman whether to have the child, but I believe that the man should also have a choice. E.g., the mother should not get to decide that the man will become a father.

I think the woman should be able to decide whether or not to have the child, but the man should have the choice of whether or not he is able and willing to take legal responsibility. But he should have a smaller window to make that choice, so that the woman will know in making her decision.

If he says no, then if the woman proceeds she will have sole legal and financial responsibility for the child.

The attitude "he shouldn't have had sex then" is the same attitude that used to be used to wreck the lives of woman who got pregnant. Nobody's life should be determined by what happens in a few minutes, whether they were reckless (unprotected sex) or just unlucky (used protection but it happened anyway). There are still options, and as much choice as possible should be available to both parties.

Dana_Lana

I think if a man gets a woman pregnant and he fully knows that a child could come out of it then he should be a man and take responsibilty for HIS actions...even if it is just paying some money every month. Otherwise the only one who suffers is the child and that is just an awful thing to do to a person. I can't imagine getting someone pregnant and then turning your back because you are not ready to be a father...
You should take care of what is yours, period.

My mother got pregnant with me and 19 and I thank God I had a father who stepping up to the plate...