[Papri]

If this thread is inappropriate and consequently closed down, then I'm sorry for making more hassle for the mods (who already do a commendable job) but (given recent events) I was just curious about what people want/expect from a News and Politics Discussion Board.

Given the fact that the mods have been forced to close down the Left/Liberal thread because of some people opposed to it, it made me wonder why people are so reluctant to allow people space and the simple respect to air their own feelings in a mature manner. As I'm sure many people agree, if there's bashing etc going on then it has to stop. But if a thread is closed before discussion can even take place, then where are we going as a healthy discussion board? If you take a look at the censorship thread we can see how many of us are wary of excessive censorship - but wish to retain an element of respect. If we start calling for such threads to be closed before discussion has even begun, aren't we just perpetrating this idea of premptive measures to avoid discussions which MAY be contrary to our own?

Yes, we have very different views on this board and we need to retain respect. But the main purpose is discussion and if we cant have that, what are we left with?

So the question remains, what do you as posters want from this board? Do you think we have it? What can we do to get it? It saddens me to think we can't even discuss things without people calling for closure of threads that aren't in the slightest bit offensive.

[sum1]

Originally Posted by Papri Given the fact that the mods have been forced to close down the Left/Liberal thread because of some people opposed to it

Actually it was closed because it descended into an argument.

Originally Posted by Papri it made me wonder why people are so reluctant to allow people space and the simple respect to air their own feelings in a mature manner.

The objections to the Left thread had nothing to do with left wing posters airing their feelings in a mature manner, it was about not wanting the board to have threads that divide the board into two mutually hostile cliques. The left and right threads encourage precisely such a divided board mentality.

[Raonaild]

Originally Posted by sum1 The objections to the Left thread had nothing to do with left wing posters airing their feelings in a mature manner, it was about not wanting the board to have threads that divide the board into two mutually hostile cliques. The left and right threads encourage precisely such a divided board mentality.

I could say the same about shipper and especially anti threads, but I would never dream of harassing them or closing them down just because I don't happen to like them. I just don't post in them.

[Papri]

Originally Posted by sum1 The objections to the Left thread had nothing to do with left wing posters airing their feelings in a mature manner

To be fair, they weren't given a chance now, were they?

The left and right threads encourage precisely such a divided board mentality.

Only if we let it get to that stage - this is the whole point of this thread; to find palattable alternatives to what some people have issues with. I'm genuinely curious - what would you prefer? Do you think the level of conversation on the thread is satisfactory as it is? (I personally would prefer seeing partisan debate than seeing threads about what Tom Cruise has named his kid...)

[sum1]

Originally Posted by Raonaild I could say the same about shipper and especially anti threads, but I would never dream of harassing them or closing them down just because I don't happen to like them. I just don't post in them.

No, the News board is a very special situation, it used to be viciously split by the left-right divide and far more aggressive than most boards and the left and right threads were at the core of that divide and tension. And as it is anti threads ARE banned on many forums on this site for fear of them causing tension. I don't think anti-threads are divisive the way the Left/Right threads were but some people on some boards obviously think they are. I think anti threads often work to REDUCE tension, but I've seen the Left/Right threads cause it and be a significant part of a detrimental mentality.

As for the "just don't post there" solution, that totally doesn't address the problem. The problem is the overall mentality of the News board, which is affected by the presence of such threads. That problem is there whether or not I post there or even read the threads.

When I saw the right and left threads weere gone I assumed they'd been banned due to their divisiveness. When I saw all that started up again I saw a danger of the board sliding back into the bad old days. Unfortunately it seems that even without those threads things are going that way anyway.

And the Left thread wasn't "harrassed". I posted a polite objection there and was attacked. I defended and explained my objection and repeatedly protested that I wasn't looking for a fight. Posters who didn't like my presence there proved determined to create a fight. By the time the thread was closed it was already well past my last post there, I'd already left a page earlier, not interested in trading jibes with people who very obviously dislike me.

Originally Posted by Papri To be fair, they weren't given a chance now, were they?

I don't see how that's relevant.

Originally Posted by Papri Only if we let it get to that stage - this is the whole point of this thread; to find palattable alternatives to what some people have issues with. I'm genuinely curious - what would you prefer? Do you think the level of conversation on the thread is satisfactory as it is? (I personally would prefer seeing partisan debate than seeing threads about what Tom Cruise has named his kid...)

I don't want the board sliding back into the nastiness of earlier times. Unfortunately it looks like it's doing just that.

As for the subject matter of the left and right threads, I don't see that there's anything posted about there that couldn't be discussed on a general thread. (Which is different from anti threads on boards in which character bashing isn't allowed on other threads.)

[sum1]

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[ceilirose]

Papri...we should be able to discusss things in an adult manner. We should all be able to follow the rules of this board. If I remember correctly we all agreed to follow the rules of FF when we signed up to post here. The rule about conflict resolution is very clear here. Unfortunately that's not the case and most of us have to suffer because of it.

elisheva...since you commented on the Democratic thread as follows:

Perhaps you feel that Sum1 should have taken his points to PM instead, but he has not posted anything on this thread warranting your hostile response.

I have to say the following - the word 'perhaps' is not even operative in discussing what happened. sum1 broke the rules of the board and made that thread a joke. Conflict resolution is to be handled off the board - the rules are simple. I understand it and I think everyone else does. What sum1 did was wrong..I asked him not to but hey...we all know how that turned out, don't we? So I was trying to play by the rules, he wasn't but it's all ok, right? Rules are only for some of us, not all. I'd like to hear that defense.

sum1 - what you did was rude, obnoxious and arrogant. I don't give a flying rat's 'you know what' about what you think about me or this board either. I don't want to hear all about you being the victim again and that your just trying to make this a better place. Save it for those who've never heard it. Frick.. at this point I don't even care if I get banned or edited for this comment. After what I've seen go in here in the name of making the board a better place to post then nothing would surprise me. More to the point I distinctly remember the Republican/Conservative Thread being warned a few times about making personal comments about us..specifically me, UM, Enigma etc. Maybe you were afraid it would happen again? That's why you were afraid of starting these threads up again? Whatever..you got this battle and this board is definitely not a friendly or open place to post. We'll see what happens in the future.

Now I'm going to go back to work and later make my posts in the thread about more people voting for Democrats this year than Republicnas. Just doing my part to make the board a nicer place to post.

Also Papri.. I personally asked Lexis to close that thread because people were making a joke of it. It was getting toxic in there. Maybe when things settle down and more people like yourself begin to post here again the tide will turn. Until then..it's the same old, same old.

[Raonaild]

As for the "just don't post there" solution, that totally doesn't address the problem. The problem is the overall mentality of the News board, which is affected by the presence of such threads. That problem is there whether or not I post there or even read the threads.

Partisanship exists. Left and right exist. Democrats and Republicans (or Liberals and Convervatives, or Tories and Whigs, etc. etc.) exist. Whether there are threads for them here at N&P or not does not change that. The Democrat and Conservative threads here in the past were a way for people who generally felt the same ways about certain issues to discuss them without constantly having to defend themselves to people who feel very differently. They were also places where people could discuss particular politicians or political parties, and half the raison d'être of this board is Politics.

[sum1]

Originally Posted by ceilirose I have to say the following - the word 'perhaps' is not even operative in discussing what happened. sum1 broke the rules of the board and made that thread a joke.

I didn't make that thread a joke, the people who chose to use it as platform from which to personally attack me did. Nor did I break the rules. I wasn't posting anything right wing on the thread nor was I trying to pick a fight or cause any trouble.

Originally Posted by ceilirose Conflict resolution is to be handled off the board - the rules are simple. I understand it and I think everyone else does. What sum1 did was wrong..I asked him not to but hey...we all know how that turned out, don't we?

My objection to the thread wasn't conflict resolution. I wasn't there for any conflict at all. As I repeatedly made clear. But people made every effort to draw me into conflict.

Now this -you attacking me here and me replying defend against to the smear on my name- this is conflict resolution. But you don't seem to want resolve it off-board. And personally I have an utterly natural urge to defend myself.

Originally Posted by ceilirose sum1 - what you did was rude, obnoxious and arrogant.

What I did was very little, certainly compared to the vicious treatment I got.

Originally Posted by Raonaild Partisanship exists. Left and right exist. Democrats and Republicans (or Liberals and Convervatives, or Tories and Whigs, etc. etc.) exist. Whether there are threads for them here at N&P or not does not change that. The Democrat and Conservative threads here in the past were a way for people who generally felt the same ways about certain issues to discuss them without constantly having to defend themselves to people who feel very differently. They were also places where people could discuss particular politicians or political parties, and half the raison d'être of this board is Politics.

Those threads encouraged a mentality of seeing posters on the board just in terms of their political affiliations. The threads encouraged people to huddle into their poltical cliques and divide into two armed camps. Sure there's a political divide without that but the threads encouraged the political divide and boosted it.

[Lexis]

Originally Posted by Papri If this thread is inappropriate and consequently closed down, then I'm sorry for making more hassle for the mods (who already do a commendable job) but (given recent events) I was just curious about what people want/expect from a News and Politics Discussion Board.

This is such a great idea and I'm really interested in getting your take on the what you want from this board. Thanks for caring so much about it!

If we start calling for such threads to be closed before discussion has even begun, aren't we just perpetrating this idea of premptive measures to avoid discussions which MAY be contrary to our own?

The thread was closed at the behest of the person who started it - since the other posts in the thread had nothing to do with the topic, I felt it was probably best to go with that request.

So the question remains, what do you as posters want from this board? Do you think we have it? What can we do to get it? It saddens me to think we can't even discuss things without people calling for closure of threads that aren't in the slightest bit offensive.

I really want to hear you guys on these questions.

Originally Posted by sum1 The left and right threads encourage precisely such a divided board mentality.

I utterly disagree with that. We are divided on a lot of issues, as is demonstrated in all topic threads on Fan Forum. Some people support one party, some prefer Cordelia to Buffy, some hate baseball but adore hockey. I don't see why intelligent people cannot discuss issues specifically relating to their party/political affiliation without it becoming nasty.

I don't see that there's anything posted about there that couldn't be discussed on a general thread.

I suppose we could start a thread debating the Lieberman/Lamont fight but in my eyes, that's an internal party issue, best suited for discussion among Democats who want to discuss which way the party is heading.

Originally Posted by Raonaild The Democrat and Conservative threads here in the past were a way for people who generally felt the same ways about certain issues to discuss them without constantly having to defend themselves to people who feel very differently. They were also places where people could discuss particular politicians or political parties, and half the raison d'être of this board is Politics.

Well said. I still think there is a place for party threads here. I'd be curious to get the opinions of as many posters as possible to see what you all think.

[elisheva]

Originally Posted by Papri Given the fact that the mods have been forced to close down the Left/Liberal thread because of some people opposed to it, it made me wonder why people are so reluctant to allow people space and the simple respect to air their own feelings in a mature manner. As I'm sure many people agree, if there's bashing etc going on then it has to stop. But if a thread is closed before discussion can even take place, then where are we going as a healthy discussion board? If you take a look at the censorship thread we can see how many of us are wary of excessive censorship - but wish to retain an element of respect. If we start calling for such threads to be closed before discussion has even begun, aren't we just perpetrating this idea of premptive measures to avoid discussions which MAY be contrary to our own? So the question remains, what do you as posters want from this board? Do you think we have it? What can we do to get it? It saddens me to think we can't even discuss things without people calling for closure of threads that aren't in the slightest bit offensive.

I think you are looking at the issue from an odd angle. The mods were not "forced to close down the Left/Liberal thread because of some people opposed to it" - if anything, the thread needed to be closed because some posters on the thread obviously couldn't handle a polite, respectful comment on the idea of partisan threads without flipping out and responding viciously and unfairly.

What do I want from this board? I want individuals to post individual views on topics that interest them. I don't want people sniping at other posters because of political disagreements or because of past disagreements; I don't want personal attacks or wilful misinterpretation; I don't want pomposity or condescension. I don't want a divided board like we once had.

from ceilirose: I have to say the following - the word 'perhaps' is not even operative in discussing what happened. sum1 broke the rules of the board and made that thread a joke. Conflict resolution is to be handled off the board - the rules are simple. I understand it and I think everyone else does. What sum1 did was wrong..I asked him not to but hey...we all know how that turned out, don't we? So I was trying to play by the rules, he wasn't but it's all ok, right? Rules are only for some of us, not all. I'd like to hear that defense.

So you think he should've sent a PM instead. Okay, so that's all you had to say to him. He didn't create a conflict; he brought up a perfectly legitimate question about the nature of partisan threads. Your response to him was unnecessarily hostile and did create conflict. If you were simply trying to play by the rules, you could simply have posted "Sum1, can you please discuss this with a mod for now? Thanks." That would've covered it.

And how is expressing an opinion "rude, obnoxious, and arrogant"? So you disagreed with him about the thread. That doesn't give you license to treat Sum1 like a stupid or malicious person who doesn't deserve a voice; mocking him is especially unnecessary.

from Lexis: I don't see why intelligent people cannot discuss issues specifically relating to their party/political affiliation without it becoming nasty.

It's perfectly possible. The problem is that the existence of partisan threas, imo, makes it less likely. People holding grudges from two years ago and being unable to respond to other posters in a civilized manner makes it entirely impossible.

Lexis, you and ROCKSTAR already know I'm against partisan threads. I'm not going to say much more about it, but I also won't allow people to attack Sum1 for no good reason.

I really liked coming back to this board; seeing this change is incredibly depressing.

[ceilirose]

Originally Posted by elisheva So you think he should've sent a PM instead. Okay, so that's all you had to say to him. He didn't create a conflict; he brought up a perfectly legitimate question about the nature of partisan threads. Your response to him was unnecessarily hostile and did create conflict. If you were simply trying to play by the rules, you could simply have posted "Sum1, can you please discuss this with a mod for now? Thanks." That would've covered it.

I did ask him..twice...read the thread again. He totally ignored it like you just did.

And how is expressing an opinion "rude, obnoxious, and arrogant"? So you disagreed with him about the thread. That doesn't give you license to treat Sum1 like a stupid or malicious person who doesn't deserve a voice; mocking him is especially unnecessary

Excuse me..he accused me of starting a fight after I asked him twice to send pm's. I specifcally said it was a haven thread. I don't whether he's a stupid or malcious person. I don't care. He's was dead wrong on what he did in that thread and I characterized his behavior as such.

Originally Posted by sum1 My objection to the thread wasn't conflict resolution. I wasn't there for any conflict at all. As I repeatedly made clear. But people made every effort to draw me into conflict.

The last thing in the world I wanted on that thread was you making a stink about it. No one drew you into that conflict. You jumped in head first.

You had an issue with it and you took it public instead of going via pm. Now I know you’ll turn this around and quibble over words and you didn’t do it but hey..you never do. Right.. I got it. Let’s move beyond the cries of victim because I know what your response will be.

You were direct and confrontational in your quote. I was likewise. If you can’t take it don’t dish it out in the first place.

I asked you take it to a pm. You ignored my request and told me I was starting a fight. I asked you again. You didn’t. You accused me of trying to start a fight again. I was asking you to follow the rules. I guess that was my big mistake.

I did not draw you into a fight - I asked you to take it off the board - you didn't do that. Plus you couldn't stop there..nope..had to get the last word in.

I start a thread – I say it’a a haven thread like the old ones were – you object to it, say it shouldn’t exist because it will cause problems and I’m the one starting the fight. Please.

You don’t respect the rules or anyone else that disagrees with you. That’s apparent because that thread became all about you and what you wanted to happen. I guess you got your wish.

The worst part of all of this is that you attempted to decide that the rest of us can’t handle difference of opinions without resorting to name calling and other childish behavior. You don’t have the right to make that call for the rest of us. You don’t have the right to project that on to the rest of us. That’s your issue..deal with it but don’t try to limit everyone else because of it. You tried to limit discussion to suit your sensibilities as if you have the right to decide that for all of us. You don’t.

I hope the threads can come back..but that’s ultimately not for me nor you to decide.

[Raonaild]

I'm actually not sure why the old Left/Right partisan threads are being blamed for past problems. I've been here since this board began, and I've lurked about since, but I never saw any particular correlation between those threads and the nastiness. Compared to some shipper and anti threads on other boards, the Left/Right threads were pretty friendly and civilized. The nastiness comes about because people feel very strongly about the sorts of issues discussed, and they choose not to express their opinions in a respectful way.

[clone]

I just still want to post mildly humorous completly contradictory posts that will continue to be entirely ignored.....

....... cool?

[elisheva]

ceilirose, I read the thread quite thoroughly several times. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm well aware that you did say to send a PM to a mod - the problem is the WAY in which you said it: buried in three paragraphs of vitriol and condescension.

Raonaild: What you mention is a problem, yeah, and partisan threads are obviously not the only causes of an angry board. But I really do feel that in my experience of the board and those past threads, they honestly promote a mentality of us v. them, were people clump together and then sally out en masse to argue with the other clump. It minimzies individuality on the board.