quaist

After the scandalous pictures of REUTERS - look f.e. on that one (PhotoShop patterns are clearly to see) -



I am even more assured in supporting Israel. Apparently some media platforms have decided to pervert the facts. Israel attacked the Hezbollah not just because of the two soldiers - Hezbollah was throwing bombs in Israel long before the public noticed the whole conflict.

Lexis

Support Israel in what?

I think they are a state that has a right to exist. I'd dearly like to see the country and meet the people. I think they should be able to coexist with their neighbours without all this war and fighting.

Do I think they are always correct? No. Do I think there is a mass conspiracy against Israel by the media? No.

And unless you are talking about a story that got no press, it was two soldiers not two journalists that were taken by Hezbollah and most people are aware that the stage was already being set at that point.

quaist

In their existance - I see you do so.

In which point aren't they correct in your opinion?

I haven't talked about any conspiracies, I just wanted to show that the only thing REUTERS has wanted was to oversubsribe. Do you think that media has the right to fake pictures?

Sorry, I think I've mixed something up - corrected it.

Lexis

I don't think there are any perfect nations on this planet- if only there were! So no one country is correct (in my opinion) all the time.

I think that Hezbollah got a propaganda success out of the recent conflict. Now they are fanning out across Lebanon, handing out money to people who lost their homes. Apparently, they were ready to deal with the aftermath and ensure the loyalty of people who are angry at Israel.

I know Israel had to respond to Hezbollah - no country can continue with that kind of barrage aimed at them all the time - but I think the bombing went too far and could backfire on them.

quaist

Somehow I can understand the Lebanese civilians: If my house was bombed up and somebody would give strongly needed money to me, I think I would also support them.

Moderate Bill

Lexis and quasit have made some good points, so I have a hard act to follow. I think Israel has the right to exist, even if the one of the main Israel-existance arguments is a little outmoded. I'm talking about the the claim that Israel is a haven from the rest of the world, which might turn on Jewish people everwhere at any time. I understand the sense of security one would get knowing that if an event like the Holocaust happened again, there would be a country there to support and defend jewish people worldwide. However, is the world the same as it was during WW2? People have been largely senistized thanks to modern media. I highly doubt that they would sit around, twiddle their thumbs and refuse to take in any jewish refugees (stupid old Canadian Prime Ministers of the past....). That being said, that hardly means that Israel shouldn't exist.

I have never agreed with the original occupation of the Palestinian territories, and the justification by religious folks that it's a gift from God is really a bee in my metaphorical bonnet. Has the occupation made Israel safer? Perhaps. However, a country these days needs to have a degree of international support to be successful, and taking land -- no matter in which context -- doesn't go over very well with anyone. One could also argue that the recent increase in terrorism vs. Israel, and it's demonization, has done more to hurt them than most of the times it was assaulted.

I think of Israel like any other country: it's made some mistakes of varying severity, but it's not the great apocalyptic evil that everyone makes it out to be. Of course, I think that about most countries...

quaist

Like I said - I respect Israel's existance. But there is one thing I can hardly understand:

Israel always insisted on their right on an independant jewish state because of the persecetion of jews and the holocaust. In the course of the holocaust ca. 6 million jews came to death, but the christian persecution overall were even worse. There are still areas where christians can't live in peace - Open Doors reports that over 200 million christians in 25 countries are in danger. Why isn't there a Christian/Hindu/Atheistic/... state?

Moderate Bill

Overall, christianity is a very dominant religion. There are 3 or 4 countries that I can think of off the top of my head that, although they are not purely religious societies, there is one dominant religion. One could argue that the USA could be considered a Christian state, not only because many americans are born into the faith, but also because there i evidence of christain beleif in the governments of some states. The same could be said of Canada, the UK, south america, ...There could all be viewed as havens for Christians. Many of the Arab states are religious, so they can act as a haven for Muslims, as well.

Part of the appeal of a safe state is the fact that you will not be an oppressed minority, and that the people in power will be holding your religious beleifs in mind while they govern-nate.

As for an atheist state, many countries today (some provinces/states/prefectures in these countries more than others) try to cater to the general population, rather than one religious group. As long as you have a separation of church and state, you're pretty much in an atheist country.

quaist

I live in Austria, Central Europe, and as for it, I can say that the reality is a multi-cultural mix of religions and ethics. There are many problems and conflicts because of that.

And I don't think that Israel could be compared with any other country in this point. Every human being there is jewish, that means a 100% jewish population. Worldwide it's known as the jewish state and it reaps the benefits of a number of privileges, started with the full support of the USA.

Moderate Bill

Not EVERY person in Israel is jewish, but definitely a majority. There are christians and muslims (one hears the term Israeli Arab quite frequently), as well as other, less global groups like the Druse and the Samaritans. Thankfully, many of the smaller groups are represented in parliament, as there are muslims elected as well.

There will always be groups fighting other groups, but it's not like countries that lack large immigrant populations don't have conflict. Generally, groups will pop up and begin to antagonize each other, like Catholics and Protestants in chirstian areas, Sunnis and Shiites in Muslim areas, ultra-orthodox jewish people and hippy reconstructionists (hee hee), etc. Isolationism just pretends that the problems all come from outside influences.

Well, Israel faded in and out of existance a few thousand years ago. It wasn't in good shape after the romans, persians and greeks pushed the people around for awhile. Jewish people ended up pretty scattered accross Europe and the East, and they didn't always have the best set ups (Russia was pretty bad...the Czars liked to blame all of Russia's problems on Jewish folks...not pretty). One could argue that, historically, there hasn't been much of a jewish-governened state until just recently. It must feel nice, finally having a place that is -- and was, historically -- yours.

What kind of benefits do you mean?

quaist

Well, just look at this:

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

EDIT.: I researched, the population is 80.1% jewish.

Moderate Bill

Well, all fledgling countries (like Israel in the fourties) need alot of aid to get things off the ground. Canada, the US and a whole mess of other countries had SOME kind of helping hand. It's usually required.

Hmm...it seems like alot, until you realize how long that really is..also, Israel has only a tiny population (7 million-ish), so the per-Iraeli figures end up being kinda itty bitty. Still, it's not chump change.

Where did you find that useful info?

AlexEvans

I think some things are getting confused here. Jews are targetted for persecution and death to an extent no other group is. This is both widespread, and constant for a very long time (one reason why it's supremely idiotic to blame Israel for anti-semitism and "anti-zionism").

While other groups are persecuted in many places, there has always been some place where they are free of persecution. Jews lacked a homeland, and died for that.

Nor is Israel closed to non-Jews. Christians, Muslims and others practice their religions in peace. A far cry from the many states which outlaw Christianity, Judaism and other religions.

As for aid to Israel, Israel is on the front-lines of terrorism. The benefits to American, Canadian, British and other citizens are incalculable.

quaist

It's a lot more than the US benefits other countries. Also congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning.

Source

goodnightboy

To be honest, I don't see how the photo has been Photoshopped. Still, there are strict guidelines on how much photographers can manipulate an image digitally (not much: nothing more than they can do in a darkroom) - anything more than that and it's considered fake, and there are very serious repercussions if photographers cross that line.

And onto the topic at large -

I think Israel has a right to exist. Even if I don't know the reasons for Iran calling for the 'wipe of that Zionist state', I believe that every country has the right to operate without being harrassed, without fear, as long as it operates within the rules of decency (subjective, I know - and this tosses North Korea into question). The thing about Israel is that it is subjected to a lot of hostility from the region and the like; however, it does tend to...overdo, for a lack of a better word, things sometimes.

To add to the debate about religious states, there are many Christian/Catholic states (the Philippines? USA could theoretically be called a Christian nation as well). And there are tons of aethist states - like Moderate Bill said, as long as the government does not have religious influences on it, it's considered a secular state. And here's an example for you: Singapore, which is where I live in, is exactly that