News & Politics - Bush's Pre-9/11 Terrorist Memo - Page 9

JohannafromIHJ · 04-15-2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

But why are they wary of Israel? Because they're anti-semitic.

Don't be silly! Israel does NOT equal all Jews! Anti-Semitism is being against Jews, not Israel. Calling people who are against Israel anti-Semites is a cheap, undignified propaganda phrase. What should one call Jews who are pro-Palestine and wary of Israel then?

Please do explain how being wary of Israel means that Europeans hate and wants to discriminate against every Jew on the planet.

Quote:

You mean what Arafat and the Arab world has done? The refugeee camps are not Israel's fault. It wasn't Israel who told the Palestinians to leave. It wasn't Israel who refused to assimilate refugees.

Israel didn't create the refugee problem or the refugee camps. Blaming Israel for the situation is anti-semitic.

Bull*****. Israel is guilty in this, as much as anyone else, perhaps even more. People aren�t blaming Jews, they�re criticising the Israeli government.

I truly hope real anti-Semitism doesn't flare up again, because by then everyone will be so tired of pro-Israel people crying wolf as soon as someone shows concern for Palestine that they won't take it seriously.

Quote:

Israel has destroyed homes. It shouldn't have done that. Criticize away. But don't compare it to what the Nazis did.

Because it�s different? When Nazis destroy and drive people out of their homes it�s evil, but when Israel does it it�s okay? Why?

Quote:

Children have died when used as shields by terrorists, or when attempting to commit murder due to brainwashing by the Palestinians. Blaming Israel for this is absurd.

What about the children shot, killed or injured by Israeli soldiers and vehicles?

And I love the phrase �brainwashed by the Palestinians�. �Cause all of Palestine got together and decided to brainwash their children, right? For all your preaching about the evils of anti-Semitism, you sure are quick to spew forth prejudice about another group of people.

Quote:

Israel assassinated terrorist leaders. I think this is wonderful You disagree, criticize away.

They call them terrorists, Palestinians call them spiritual leaders. I suppose Israel�s opinion weighs heavier though, since they�re the good guys and Palestine is eeeevil. As I am against the death penalty I fail to see the death of people as �wonderful�.

Quote:

Blaming Israel for the refugee camps in anti-semitic, because Israel didn't create them.

They just make sure to have plenty of soldiers around. And again, blaming Israel for the camps is not anti-Semitic, it�s at best anti-Israel.

Quote:

That is a truly horrible comparison.

This from the person who calls Europeans anti-Semites for being wary of the COUNTRY Israel.

Quote:

Israeli soldiers take huge risks in order to minimize civilian casualties. They have talked retarded children through removing the bomb vests terrorists have strapped to them. No, it isn't at all close to the behaviour of the Nazis - and it is vile to suggest such a thing.

There was a group of Nazi soldiers who smuggled Jews out of Germany and into other countries. Doesn�t mean every single Nazi was angel. A lot of them of them got caught up in the fanaticism and treated Jews in their ghettos the way many Israeli soldiers treat the Palestinians in the houses they occupy.

I think you need to drop the whole �black and white� view you�ve got of me and my opinions. I am in no way saying that Palestine is innocent, nor am I claiming that Israel is the guilty part in this. I am not saying that Israel is directly comparison able with Nazi Germany, I am saying that it is odd and saddening that Israel is treating people the same way some of their grandparents and such were treated by Nazi Germany prior to and during the beginning of WW2. This does not mean that I feel any less sympathy for what the Jews were put through during WW2, or through history, nor do I lack sympathy for them now and their dream of Israel. I just don�t think the way to go about it is by spreading propaganda, hysteria and treating Palestinians like vermin, or crying �anti-Semite!� at anyone who doesn�t love them.

Quote:

Nor is it either reasonable or honest to take the criminal action of an individual and compare it to the policy of a totalitarian state.

But it is possible to take the good actions of one group of soldiers and thereby verify the kindness of all of Israel? Or to take the vile actions of a few Palestinians and claim that all Palestinians brainwash their children into becoming terrorists. Your definition of �reasonable� baffles me, as it seems to mold itself completely to your needs and opinions.

Quote:

Israel, in desperation to stop terrorist attacks, destroys the homes of terrorists. Other people live there too; Israel shouldn't do it. But comparing this to the Nazis is unreasonable.

It�s more like I�m comparing it to the actions of Nazis, not Nazism in itself. Aside from that, don�t you think one needs to be a bit more critical, or at least think twice, about what Israel says is the reason they demolish a building? True, it could be because there are terrorists living there (I�m sure that�s true in some cases), but it could also be because they want the family inside to move from the area. I think it�s na�ve to think that every home demolished is because there�s a terrorist living in it, when testimonies from Palestinians and Israelis prove that this is not the case. And how about Palestinians being denied building permits over and over again, despite there being no good reasons for it?

2000 Palestinian families currently have demolition orders on their homes. You can�t tell me that this is made okay because of the chance that one of the family members may be a terrorist. You can�t punish an entire family for the faults of one of its members.

Quote:

It is anti-semitism masquerading as anti-Israel. It is the belief Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. It is the belief an advanced democracy with a superb human rights (flawed like that of all states) deserves more criticism than the many dictatorships around the world. It is the belief there should be 23 Arab states and no Jewish state, although Jews face annihilation as no other people ever has.

You have got to be kidding me?

By being against Israel�s actions, one is automatically against all Jews? That kind of proves how limited your knowledge about all of this is.

And as to Jews facing annihilation as no other people ever has, let�s run that one by a Native American or two and see how they feel about it. Or the Christians, who were quite hunted by both Romans and Jews during their first hundred years or so. Or women. Or, you know, the many hundreds of peoples and groups who have been completely annihilated.

Enigma, I.C. · 04-15-2004, 11:06 AM

So what I'm gathering here is that Israel, as a state, can do whatever it wants because it's Israel. Anyone who says otherwise is anti-semitic. Am I incorrect?

mh67511 · 04-15-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maggie aka Sarah:
[qb]Oh and when I think of it... many the best way to increase security in the USA and around the world is for each of every person in the world... to spend some time trying to understand the points of views of other cultures.[qb]

Yeah try telling that to the terrorists. They don't WANT to learn or accept our views. They want EVERYONE to agree with them and think that it is ok to MURDER AND KILL people who do not agree with them. These people are NOT rational. They are NOT capable of living with people who do not agree with them. They HATE Christians. They HATE Jews. They HATE America. They HATE ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH THEM. If they had their way, they would want the entire world would be converted to Muslims and follow their strict views on Islam and NOTHING else. Actually, they wouldn't even BOTHER trying to convert us "infidels." They'd just kill us.

AlexEvans · 04-15-2004, 12:52 PM

Quote:

And as to Jews facing annihilation as no other people ever has, let�s run that one by a Native American or two and see how they feel about it. Or the Christians, who were quite hunted by both Romans and Jews during their first hundred years or so. Or women. Or, you know, the many hundreds of peoples and groups who have been completely annihilated.

I was wondering why I've never met an Amerindian, a Christian, or a woman! They've all been completely annihilated... that really sucks. Well, at least I've learned something from this thread.

Enigma, I.C. · 04-15-2004, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm:


I was wondering why I've never met an Amerindian, a Christian, or a woman! They've all been completely annihilated... that really sucks. Well, at least I've learned something from this thread.

That's a really hateful way to twist someone's words entirely out of context. Way to go.

[ 04-15-2004: Message edited Enigma, I.C. ]

JohannafromIHJ · 04-15-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm:
I was wondering why I've never met an Amerindian, a Christian, or a woman! They've all been completely annihilated... that really sucks. Well, at least I've learned something from this thread.

Face(d) annihilation, as you said. Don't play dumb to get out of this.

Out of the Native Americans, 95% were killed by Europeans and the diseases they brought with them.

Christians were crucified, murdered and persecuted until their numbers were very small. But due to the fact that the Emperor of Rome converted, Christians were made the "predators" instead.

Women have been, and still are, murdered, enslaved and treated like general garbage all over the world, resulting in a great deal more women having been killed than Jews. In China, there is a desperate shortage of women due to this.

Quote:

Yeah try telling that to the terrorists. They don't WANT to learn or accept our views. They want EVERYONE to agree with them and think that it is ok to MURDER AND KILL people who do not agree with them. These people are NOT rational. They are NOT capable of living with people who do not agree with them. They HATE Christians. They HATE Jews. They HATE America. They HATE ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH THEM. If they had their way, they would want the entire world would be converted to Muslims and follow their strict views on Islam and NOTHING else. Actually, they wouldn't even BOTHER trying to convert us "infidels." They'd just kill us.

Wow, way to label all terrorists Muslims. You are aware that you're completely wrong, not to mention offensive, right?

But aside from that, I don�t think terrorists are beyond help. There are plenty of terrorists who have changed their minds. Thinking of them as soulless, evil monsters � as you seem to do � is dangerous. We have to remember that people, no matter how fanatical they get, are still HUMAN with human emotions. What is happening now, with the attacks and whatnot, is what humans, no matter what religion, race or political ideology they are a part of, can do. Not just Muslims.

Quote:

Originally posted by Enigma, I.C.:
That's a really hateful way to twist someone's words entirely out of context. Way to go.

Hey, he's quite obviously made a bit of a fool of himself already, who am I do begrudge him the momentarily pleasure of snark? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

StellaSlight · 04-15-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

I was wondering why I've never met an Amerindian, a Christian, or a woman! They've all been completely annihilated... that really sucks. Well, at least I've learned something from this thread.

Well, we have a saying here when we learn something that important : 'At least I'll go to bed less dumb tonight'. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Excellent posts, Johanna.

ceilirose · 04-15-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mh67511:


.....If they had their way, they would want the entire world would be converted to Muslims and follow their strict views on Islam and NOTHING else. Actually, they wouldn't even BOTHER trying to convert us "infidels." They'd just kill us.

You mean like how Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph tried to kill us? They weren't Muslims but they sure hurt people with their own brand of terrorism toward their fellow Americans. It would be real easy if the problem and solution of terrorism was so cut and dry and that it only sprang from one source..unfortunately that's not the real world.

Regarding Native Americans...don't forget that besides being killed by diseases brought in by Europeans there were also massacres brought on by the settlers and U.S. Army if I remember correctly.

[ 04-15-2004: Message edited ceilirose ]

mh67511 · 04-15-2004, 08:38 PM

I thought this thread had to do with 9/11, therefore I was discussing Islamic terrorists and not Timothy McVeigh. I didn't mean all terrorists I just specically meant the Islamic terrorists, but I forgot to include that.

mh67511 · 04-15-2004, 08:39 PM

I used to have this list of terrorists attacks in an e-mail. Anyways if you look at all the terrorist acts commited against the United States, nearly ALL of them were from Islamic terrorists. I will try and find that list.

Katis · 04-15-2004, 08:48 PM

Calm down. Take a breath. Don't tell other people they've made a fool out of themselves as personal attacks aren't allowed.

Now. I find it interesting when people say the Muslim terrorists simply hate us and don't want to understand us. It's possible they have reasons to hate us. Our complete and total support of Israel for one. Maybe how the President will get on TV and express regret and extend condolences to the families of innocent Israeli victims, but has never done the same for the families of innocent Palestinian victims? This is just one reason that people in the middle east may feel animosity towards us, they don't think we care anything about them.

And for all the talk about Muslims being the terrorists etc, etc and the fundamentalists in Palestine doing all the suicide bombings, you do realize that 40% of Palestinians are Christian right? It's not completely a religious thing.

ros2nz · 04-15-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mh67511:


Yeah try telling that to the terrorists. They don't WANT to learn or accept our views. They want EVERYONE to agree with them and think that it is ok to MURDER AND KILL people who do not agree with them. These people are NOT rational. They are NOT capable of living with people who do not agree with them. They HATE Christians. They HATE Jews. They HATE America. They HATE ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH THEM. If they had their way, they would want the entire world would be converted to Muslims and follow their strict views on Islam and NOTHING else. Actually, they wouldn't even BOTHER trying to convert us "infidels." They'd just kill us.

If you read over the entire thread from page 2-4, you'd find the characteristics you described are dangerously close to fitting the bill of some posts here. Apart from the very obvious killing/pludering blah..

Are you over your "we've-been-so-wronged" indulgence?

Johanna, Anne - word. When we defend Palestine, that makes us Anti-Semites....bravo. Well done, and this from educated, modern people too, not ignorant, illiterate, still-living-in-caves Muslims fanatics. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

The entire thread disgusts me.

How can anyone who thinks 'rationally' call blaming Israel as being anti-semitic? Anne's analogy was dead on - does thinking Iraq a danger to world peace, make us Iraqi-haters?

Katis, dear, either change the title or start a new thread, because people who've come to debate Bush's 9/11 memo does not need to read 6 pages of *censored*.

sum1 · 04-15-2004, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ros2nz:
If you read over the entire thread from page 2-4, you'd find the characteristics you described are dangerously close to fitting the bill of some posts here. Apart from the very obvious killing/pludering blah..

Are you over your "we've-been-so-wronged" indulgence?

Johanna, Anne - word. When we defend Palestine, that makes us Anti-Semites....bravo. Well done, and this from educated, modern people too, not ignorant, illiterate, still-living-in-caves Muslims fanatics. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

The entire thread disgusts me.

How can anyone who thinks 'rationally' call blaming Israel as being anti-semitic? Anne's analogy was dead on - does thinking Iraq a danger to world peace, make us Iraqi-haters?

Katis, dear, either change the title or start a new thread, because people who've come to debate Bush's 9/11 memo does not need to read 6 pages of *censored*.

Katis just asked people to calm down and you come along and make a major attack on your fellow posters and their views? That really helps things.

ros2nz · 04-15-2004, 11:46 PM

sum 1 - I try and avoid going into discussing things with you because you never seem to get my point and then make derogatory remarks on it but this one takes the cake.
As long as it's YOU blowing things out of proportions and attacking other poster's POV, it's fine and dandy but god forbid if it's anyone else, huh?

And for your information, my post occured simultaneously with hers and no, I'm not 'big ( [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) enough to edit it. Deal. I'm not the only one here with inflammatory posts, but you didn't see those.

Indri · 04-15-2004, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katis:
Now. I find it interesting when people say the Muslim terrorists simply hate us and don't want to understand us. It's possible they have reasons to hate us. Our complete and total support of Israel for one. Maybe how the President will get on TV and express regret and extend condolences to the families of innocent Israeli victims, but has never done the same for the families of innocent Palestinian victims? This is just one reason that people in the middle east may feel animosity towards us, they don't think we care anything about them.

And for all the talk about Muslims being the terrorists etc, etc and the fundamentalists in Palestine doing all the suicide bombings, you do realize that 40% of Palestinians are Christian right? It's not completely a religious thing.

Before answer this I take a breathe.... ok.

Maybe this destiny for muslim they will labell Islam with terrorist just because a lot of conflict in middle east especially for conflict Israel VS Palestine and they not realized many Palestines ist Cristiant and after we saw how demonstrated Al-Qaeda make collaps WTC and another terror who said from al-qaeda coincidence their muslim and they bring Islam for their action.

But just remember not all Muslim have short brains like Osama or ..... another militant many muslim have open mind and they no react like militan group maybe this time for muslim to be passion to see all the change in the world well I see a lot of American or europe people look so interesthing with Islam righ now American and europe people a lot of study about Islam right now I thought that was a good singn and hope west people not see muslim as terrorist.

And I hope a lot of muslim study about technology to west country and improve their intelegence with another knowlegde not only think about suicide and bomb, not all problem finished with suicide I gues...

ugh look like I talk very calm right now because I study a lot in this board hmmm glad we have this forum [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

BTW what the Topic [img]smilies/goof.gif[/img]

[ 04-15-2004: Message edited Indri ]